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AP itemization

hitMAN00084··9 votes·7,675 views

When it comes to AD items the itemization is clear, there are the bruiser items such as black cleaver, trinity force, titanic hydra, etc, the assassin items are clear as well, duskblade, youmous, etc, and the ADC items are all the crit items. League has tailored items to the needs of the champion classes that use AD.

This does not seem to be the case for AP items. There is a large variation with AP items but there doesn't seem to be role specific items. The ap items seems more attuned to play styles such as damage over time with rylas and liandrys or going for a burst build, such as ludens, Morellos, Deathcap. There is not a clear division of items for AP users, making them all fit in the "mage" role. There are definite roles within AP, Poke (Xerath), Control (Taliyah), Assassin (Eveyln), Juggernaut (Mord). The AP items should be more specified to these roles, the assassin items should give access to magic pen and burst, the control mages should have access to health and cc, and the juggernauts should have access to damage over time. This is of course just an opinion and I believe that it would help better balance AP items.

32 Comments

Brotha5 votes

More ap bruiser items are needed for ap fighters:

Diana Mordekaiser Ekko

Yea it's fun building them to do damage and play like assassins but we need more class variety in league since nobody plays tanks.

HP Crookshanks2 votes

Ekko is an assassin

Brotha1 votes

[{quoted}](name=HP Crookshanks,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=t0sZIxZq,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-11-14T03:09:31.070+0000)

Ekko is an assassin

That is his primary class, his subclass would fall under Diver much like how Diana is a Diver primarily whose subclass is assassin. Both of them have the tools and synergize with items that allow them to fill either role. Most champions do not fit into a SINGLE classification.

WoonStruck1 votes

[{quoted}](name=HP Crookshanks,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=t0sZIxZq,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-11-14T03:09:31.070+0000)

Ekko is an assassin

Hes a diver that can be an assassin because of how limited and binary ap itemization is. Lichbane especially.

Lichbane should be removed and trinity force should grant adaptive force instead of AP, and deal the relevant damage type.

Rebalance from there.

Look at all the tools he has and try to tell me he's ever going to achieve a state of balance as an assassin.

CaptainAntiHeroz4 votes

item 3170

arowin2422 votes

{quoted}

item 3170

RIP treeline 2k19

moonflair spellblade was pretty good tho: 50 AP 50 armor 50 MR and the tenacity passive? amazing replacements for mercs.

CaptainAntiHeroz1 votes

{quoted}

RIP treeline 2k19

moonflair spellblade was pretty good tho: 50 AP 50 armor 50 MR and the tenacity passive? amazing replacements for mercs.

yeah i think a toned down version of spellblade being carried to SR or ARAM would be nice, they'd have to tone it down because Akali Katarina but i feel like it would make a lot of ap bruisers happy

arowin2422 votes

{quoted}

yeah i think a toned down version of spellblade being carried to SR or ARAM would be nice, they'd have to tone it down because Akali Katarina but i feel like it would make a lot of ap bruisers happy

definitely, i build item 3170 on Mordekaiser as a last item to round out my build, tough champs like Akali and Kat would indeed be a problem with the full-power moonflair spellblade.

AP bruiser right now are kinda in a bad spot, their items are OP but not truly meant for them, champs likeMordekaiser Singed and Sylas LOVE AP and HP, but while morrelos, rylai's and liandry's are great, they offer no CDR which weakens them all considerably considering their main dmg output is repeated ability usage.

i think item 3170 could go into SR if it gave less AP: high-ap scaling champs would be discouraged from buying it as they try to burst down their target anyway.

That's all.

CaptainAntiHeroz1 votes

{quoted}

definitely, i build item 3170 on Mordekaiser as a last item to round out my build, tough champs like Akali and Kat would indeed be a problem with the full-power moonflair spellblade.

AP bruiser right now are kinda in a bad spot, their items are OP but not truly meant for them, champs likeMordekaiser Singed and Sylas LOVE AP and HP, but while morrelos, rylai's and liandry's are great, they offer no CDR which weakens them all considerably considering their main dmg output is repeated ability usage.

i think item 3170 could go into SR if it gave less AP: high-ap scaling champs would be discouraged from buying it as they try to burst down their target anyway.

That's all.

yup... except singed doesn't particularly need cdr as much as he needs mana and health and resistances beyond that i think giving another bruiser option that isn't item 3102 would be nice..... Maybe they could make item 3170 build from item 1052 item 3105 item 1028 which would give it health and resistance to compensate being nerfed in the damage department but still not encouraging Kata and Akali to buy it (at least not early on to abuse it)

arowin2421 votes

{quoted}

yup... except singed doesn't particularly need cdr as much as he needs mana and health and resistances beyond that i think giving another bruiser option that isn't item 3102 would be nice..... Maybe they could make item 3170 build from item 1052 item 3105 item 1028 which would give it health and resistance to compensate being nerfed in the damage department but still not encouraging Kata and Akali to buy it (at least not early on to abuse it)

i like that idea.

boricCentaur12 votes

Ad items have more options since they're more types of champions. The majority of ap champions are just a different type of mage, there is one juggernaut, like 3 divers and I guess a marksman maybe two.

Cass wants similar items to a arhi whereas a cait wants VERY different items from a talon.

Like mages may play differently but overall they want the same things when it comes to items.

I will agree with you. There itemization needs more diversity items like item 3157 or item 3285 need to be changed so they can't be built on basically every ap champion. We need more items like item 3152 or item 3027 they help a specific type of champion while not being good on most.

WoonStruck1 votes

Zhonyas needs a cd nerf. Thats about it.

GA can be built on every AD and often is, so I dont see the issue with Zhonyas being bought on every AP.

AP scalings, however, need to be nerfed across most of the roster. Either that or utility/base damage of most AP champs. Nobody should be 1 shotting with just Zhonyas.

Durzaka4 votes

The thing is, there ARE different types of AP champions. They were even designed as such.

But because there arent enough items to support it, champions that SHOULD be AP bruisers, like Diana, are just forced to be AP assassins anyways.

So then they get balanced like that, and pushed more towards the playstyle that wasnt intended, so AP champions start to all look the same.

boricCentaur11 votes

There isn't stop lying to yourself. I LISTED DIANA when I said the number of divers even though she really doesn't play like one.

Diana ,Sylas , and maybe Rumble those are the divers

Mordekaiser juggernauts

Kayle and Azir would both MAYBE in the marksman and Corki doesn't count since he builds AD.

So 6 fucking champions WOW SO MUCH DIVERSITY!!!!! the rest are assassins which need basically the same items as burst mages so you can just group them together with mages.

Boomer1 votes

So 6 fucking champions WOW SO MUCH DIVERSITY!!!!! the rest are assassins

Anivia AurelionSol Cassiopeia Fiddlesticks Heimerdinger Karma Karthus Kennen Lissandra Lux Malzahar Morgana Neeko Orianna Ryze Teemo TwistedFate Veigar Velkoz Viktor Vladimir Xerath Ziggs Zilean Zyra

TIL these are assassins.

boricCentaur11 votes

Are you trolling? Since I was talking about the rest of the non mages which is why I did this "the rest are assassins which need basically the same items as burst mages so you can just group them together with mages."

Talk about being disingenuous. The majority of ap are mages the diversity of ap champions are very low compared to ad.

Boomer1 votes

Say what you mean. Don't expect people to read your mind.

What you were intending makes sense. The way you worded it is incredibly confusing.

preternatural1 votes

{quoted}

Anivia AurelionSol Cassiopeia Fiddlesticks Heimerdinger Karma Karthus Kennen Lissandra Lux Malzahar Morgana Neeko Orianna Ryze Teemo TwistedFate Veigar Velkoz Viktor Vladimir Xerath Ziggs Zilean Zyra

TIL these are assassins.

dontcha know lux is a sniper assassin bro? best in class

FurriesAreHot1 votes

There's nothing wrong with universal items. Hell, there will always be universal items, ESPECIALLY for AP casters. Athenes, Morello, Ludens, Zhonyas, are all items that held the status of "most mages rush me" at some point.

AD items have this too. Tiamat/Sterakk's/BLK is run on almost every AD bruiser/diver. Infinity Edge isnt a rush item but is still run on most AD carries.

Instead we should be giving more options to build, rather than removing options from characters.

hitMAN000841 votes

{quoted}

Ad items have more options since they're more types of champions. The majority of ap champions are just a different type of mage, there is one juggernaut, like 3 divers and I guess a marksman maybe two.

Cass wants similar items to a arhi whereas a cait wants VERY different items from a talon.

Like mages may play differently but overall they want the same things when it comes to items.

I will agree with you. There itemization needs more diversity items like item 3157 or item 3285 need to be changed so they can't be built on basically every ap champion. We need more items like item 3152 or item 3027 they help a specific type of champion while not being good on most.

I would argue that there are just as many ap versions of champions as there are ad version, juggernauts such as mord and arguably singed, marksmen such as Kayle, Azir, Kogmaw, and even Varus, assassins such as Katarina, Evelyn, Fizz, control mages such as Taliyah, Anivia, and Zilean. I am just saying that these different types should have the items tailored to those play styles instead of one size fits all. item 3157 could be more for assassins who get in and need a moment for cooldown resets or for the team could save them, give it magic pen and take away the armor and cooldown reduction, item 3907 this is a perfect example of a good AP assassin item, it has no cooldown reduction and access to burst damage. item 3115 This is the only item in the game that gives a significant amount of AP and attack speed.

I think some AP items need to be redesigned for specific roles rather than the one size fits all system currently in place.

WoonStruck2 votes

High AP items should NEVER include CDR.

CDR items shouldnt have more than 60 AP. Especially the ones with 20% CDR.

CDR items probably shouldnt be defensive. They should come with powerful actives that cater toward champs that want to "dps" more than their poke/burst counterparts.

Trinity force should both GIVE adaptive force and deal the respective damage type. Lich bane should be removed. 0 interaction 1 shot passive is pretty dumb.

AP bruisers should be rebalanced to not feel punished building Sunfire. Think about that one for a minute. Basically, encourage people not to build glass cannon on them.

AP assassins would be losing their CDR and lichbane, so they might actually end up balanced. Everything AP has broken scaling if they ever are capable of considering gunblade or lichbane.

Poke would either go high damage or higher reliability via cdr. They would no longer get both.

IainG102 votes

Agreed, but the same has to be true of AD items. You can hit hard, or you can hit often; both is just power creep. The biggest issue with Assassins right now is how often they have access to their combo; they should be get in, evaporate one target, and get out. An Assassin should be evaporated themselves if they fluff their engage or escape, or if they stick around for too many kills in the enemy group.

CoolKnightST2 votes

Agrea but some of these things could be solved as well:

  • Duskblade passive nightstalker should have a cooldown even 5 seconds after use would be enouge to ballance it out
  • Lich Bane AP ratio should be removed & in return giving it a single target slow. Since mages already deal bonus damage to towers the sheen effect would still provide them siege power & the added slow would give mages a good alternative in a item 3070 build.
IainG101 votes

Yeah, Nightstalker is a little too abusable for stealth champs (lookin mainly at you Pyke, Rengar and Kha6)....

CoolKnightST1 votes

Yeah Kha is really busted with this. He can litterly reset the Duskblade passive 3 times in a row with his ult...

hitMAN000841 votes

{quoted}

High AP items should NEVER include CDR.

CDR items shouldnt have more than 60 AP. Especially the ones with 20% CDR.

CDR items probably shouldnt be defensive. They should come with powerful actives that cater toward champs that want to "dps" more than their poke/burst counterparts.

Trinity force should both GIVE adaptive force and deal the respective damage type. Lich bane should be removed. 0 interaction 1 shot passive is pretty dumb.

AP bruisers should be rebalanced to not feel punished building Sunfire. Think about that one for a minute. Basically, encourage people not to build glass cannon on them.

AP assassins would be losing their CDR and lichbane, so they might actually end up balanced. Everything AP has broken scaling if they ever are capable of considering gunblade or lichbane.

Poke would either go high damage or higher reliability via cdr. They would no longer get both.

I agree with this except for removing lichbane, remove the CDR however. I think they should balance the game on giving assassin high AP and magic pen but no CDR, maybe changing item 3157 to give magic pen but removing the armor and cooldown reduction so AP assassins have the ability to go in and pray that their team helps them after. Mages should have health and cooldown reduction but lower AP so they can apply their CC throughout a battle, and juggernauts should have health and access to DPS and sticking to their target.

WoonStruck1 votes

Why should lichbane remain in the game?

It basically guarantees one-shots. Its a far more broken version of duskblade. If you don't acknowledge that, you may have some bias.

Lichbane should be an AP 'skirmisher' item. In which case you might as well just make TF adaptive and remove it, because it better fulfills that niche. The only reason someone should want to keep lichbane is so they can keep abusing a broken item. If lichbane is to remain, its AP ratio at the very least needs to be nerfed, and the bAD ratio increased to 100%. Unless for some reason you think Ekko having an effective 90% AP ratio+175% bAD scaling on his E could ever be balanced.

Hell, look at how much protobelt's active has been nerfed. Its WAY harder to land all bolts on a single target than to use the spellblade proc. Yet compare the damage. Also CD.

LightswornLance1 votes

There is only one thing AP itemization really needs and that would be a bruiser equivalent to deathcap. Currently any champ that would go AP bruiser is forced to build full AP because building tank items loses out on too much build efficiency due to deathcaps passive. I suggest it has a passive that gives you AP based on bonus health, and ofc doesn't stack with deathcaps passive.

Saezio1 votes

Sounds like you just want ap bruiser items. Can't happen cause mages like ryze or cassio will abuse them.

There are tons of items to do all you need with the ap champs. item 3152 item 3100 item 3905 item 3030 item 3157 item 3285 item 3151 item 3116 item 3174 item 3146 item 3040 item 2065 item 3115

Like.. what more do you want?

hitMAN000841 votes

{quoted}

Sounds like you just want ap bruiser items. Can't happen cause mages like ryze or cassio will abuse them.

There are tons of items to do all you need with the ap champs. item 3152 item 3100 item 3905 item 3030 item 3157 item 3285 item 3151 item 3116 item 3174 item 3146 item 3040 item 2065 item 3115

Like.. what more do you want

AP items in league seem to fit into 3 categories, 1 Burst item 3089 item 3285 item 3100, Mana spam item 3003 item 3027, and whatever you want to callitem 3151 item 3116 item 3165 All I am suggesting is making the items fit into more specific roles, such as assassin, bruiser, control mage, and on hit. Give the assassins the tools to have high burst damage (Magic pen and AP) but take away CDR, give the control mages the tools to last longer in a fighter and use their abilities more often (Health, CDR, resistances) but take away the high ap values, give bruisers tankyness and damage over time and stickyness (Health, resistances, and item 3116 ) but take away high ratios.

In response to cass and ryze they like to spam spells and have have the CC to get away with bullying melee champions. That is an issue with those champions and their kits.

Daddy Ants1 votes

Yet AP itemization is the best in the game by far.

preternatural1 votes

the AP items, are already all good. so rito has no reason to make another set of items for AP assassins outside of them perhaps having niche items like a gunblade. i would very much like malady back as an item so i can play the real elise again though.

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