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It's been nearly 2 weeks since 4.21. Where is the promised update and follow-up on Cassiopeia?

5G8Nri0B54··13 votes·2,159 views

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/GgdhG-68uVM/hqdefault.jpg

This won't be a wall-of-text like the rest of my threads (everything is relative though :p). Just a thread to keep Cassiopeia in your mind so you won't go the route of Olaf and Yorick's designers who claimed that they will "totally return and fix them" only to walk away laughing as their respective champions remain in limbo for who knows how many years to come.

If you haven't read this thread (or any other threads ). At most I'll just paste this here and if you want them explained there's the link there you can click on.

TL;DR -

  1. You need to do something to Cassiopeia so that she isn't the League's AP Rambo
  2. Q and W SHOULD NOT REQUIRE HER E TO DO HIGH DAMAGE!!!!!!!!!!!
  3. Building up on the previous point, she still have exclusively a single range and pattern, and that is of a short-ranged ranged all-in mano-a-mano style
  4. Q's Cooldown being so much higher than the Poison's duration feels HORRIBLE
  5. Cursor detection of poisoned vs. un-poisoned unit can be a real bitch in a messy fight
  6. Her Passive fails in both Thematic Consistency AND Gameplay
  7. Smooth out her power-curve so that she is just like pre-rework Cassiopeia please
  8. Building upon THAT note, Cassiopeia is unplayable in ARAM, Dom, and TT
  9. "throw away the entire rework and revert her to old Cass!"
  10. her ability to maintain mana only works while farming, but in a teamfight, just killing a frontliner can wear you out
  11. ALL poison indicators (not just Cass) should be a little more clearer than just a tiny purple puff

PS - I will add one more point of discussion though.

12. Your attempt to address her E-reliance was to make her even more E-reliant, to make her E even more overloaded.

Any response I have to this will likely be passive-aggressive to snarky at best so I won't. People have suggested this before, and it is a good change IF DONE RIGHT.

However, I want you to just pay attention to the context. When this has been suggested, it's done under the context that a) her Poison from Q and W isn't shit and b) her E's base instant-damage is nerfed heavily enough so that you can have more room to make the rest of her kit flourish. When this suggestion was thrown around in the past, it was an attempt to give her E some purpose so it isn't a boring poorly designed spam-button, so that you can reduce it's instant damage enough to free up some space for her Q/W.

(also shouldn't there be like an indicator for marked units that they will take extra poison damage?)

36 Comments

Caustic Crusader6 votes

I'm still not gonna come back to League until Riot fixes this bullshit. I miss when champs were, you know, fun.

Meep Man5 votes

Happy Holidays. Get off League of Legends and have fun with family. Riot Games has lives too.

Tiowthy4 votes

since there's been no recent pbe updates, I'd assume that Stashu will come back next year. Even designers/riot employees should have the right to spend the holidays with their families.

TheFrozenIsles3 votes

It the holidays man! There will be no new PBE for the next two week or so.

Grand Eleven5 votes

This avoids "out of sight out of mind" mentality from taking over and letting this iteration drift into status quo.

Saevum3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Grand Eleven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ss4y9cE8,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2014-12-23T23:06:49.927+0000)

This avoids "out of sight out of mind" mentality from taking over and letting this iteration drift into status quo.

This guy knows how Red team thinks. And im not referring myself to Ranked Solo Q.

AHeroNamedHawke3 votes

"Her Q cooldown is so much longer than her poison duration"

> 1 second shorter than the CD and you automatically get 25% CDR at 17 minutes so it then matches

You serious?

And the base damage is still the same, but it does 35 less damage per 100 AP so it's fine for maxing in lane

W does less damage but slows for more, better for both kiting and chasing

E has always been a significant portion of her damage so lets not pretend she was an "AoE poison mage" before the rework. She poked better with QW then but was certainly not what you're claiming.

Her passive power curve is fine now, assuming you land an average of 1 Q every 30 seconds (with a 4 second CD I would hope so) you hit the second spike at 17 minutes and the third spike at 32 minutes, later if you're getting shit on and sooner if you're landing harass constantly. You get the first spike at around 8 minutes as well, giving you sustain from E if you need to farm passively (by the way 8 hp per hit is the same as 8% lifesteal with 100 AD so don't cry that it's nothing ty)

I can agree with giving her QoL changes through indicators and targeting, and maybe making the third spike sooner but less powerful while increasing QW AP ratios, but whining that she isn't exactly the same as pre-rework isn't going to get you anywhere

5G8Nri0B545 votes

Let me help shorten that down for you.

"completely missing the entire point"

AHeroNamedHawke4 votes

{quoted}

Let me help shorten that down for you.

"completely missing the entire point"

Your point is that shes different therefore it's bad

I got it from your last 600 threads

Grand Eleven8 votes

[{quoted}](name=Charles Barklius,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ss4y9cE8,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2014-12-24T03:47:36.460+0000)

Your point is that shes different therefore it's bad

I got it from your last 600 threads

Ironically all you've proven is that you DON'T get the point.

AHeroNamedHawke4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Grand Eleven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ss4y9cE8,comment-id=0005000000000000,timestamp=2014-12-24T07:26:43.949+0000)

Ironically all you've proven is that you DON'T get the point.

The point is to complain using hyperbole right? Claim she was an AoE poison mage pre rework that didn't use E for a large chunk of damage and pretend that a % cost reduction on spells was a more interesting passive? Claim 235 + 0.45 on a 4->3 second cooldown is no damage? Pretend getting 25% CDR and 10% AP at 17 minutes is too late in the game to matter?

Cuz that's what it's been so far, complaining that it isn't the same as pre-rework which was too good of a lane bully for how hard she scaled and extremely difficult to balance. 10 base damage off her E + 0.1 scaling off Q and she was never played again.

5G8Nri0B544 votes

Cassiopeia...scaling hard.

And you claimed WE were being hyperbolic?!

Kingsgrave3 votes

{quoted}

Cassiopeia...scaling hard.

And you claimed WE were being hyperbolic?!

Do the circlejerkers even talk to eachother?

There were a large portion of you that constantly said that Cass actually topped the damage charts for a while in mid lane before her rework, but typical of lane bullies she could only do that if she wasn't against people that blow her up faster than she can even react, IE assassins.

You also must have never played 3s because she was insane on there. Her damage was always ridiculously high.

5G8Nri0B544 votes

Yes because people tend to care about the adopted brother of SR

Kingsgrave1 votes

{quoted}

Yes because people tend to care about the adopted brother of SR

Say you what you will about 3s, it is almost entirely skirmishing and teamfighting constantly, which is something Cass old and new excels at. Old Cass destroyed literally everyone in 3s and was a constant ban from what I could tell because you couldn't avoid her burst, she out farmed everyone and there was no fighting her.

I hope Riot gives you guys back your old cass but lowers all of her base damages and ratios to like 10/20/30/40/50(+10% AP) just to spite you.

New Cass takes the old play pattern and makes it healthier. Her play pattern did not change, only her power curve. Accept it or keep whining, she has a 52% winrate and a moderate playrate and it will stay that way.

AHeroNamedHawke2 votes

{quoted}

Cassiopeia...scaling hard.

And you claimed WE were being hyperbolic?!

LOLOLOLOLOLOL

I'm done

I'm so done

You have blown my mind

5G8Nri0B544 votes

Yes, the person who constantly fails to get the point is "done".

K, cya.

AHeroNamedHawke3 votes

{quoted}

Yes, the person who constantly fails to get the point is "done".

K, cya.

You just said Cass had no scaling

I can't take that seriously, sorry

Grand Eleven4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Charles Barklius,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ss4y9cE8,comment-id=00050000000000000000,timestamp=2014-12-24T07:51:18.767+0000)

The point is to complain using hyperbole right? Claim she was an AoE poison mage pre rework that didn't use E for a large chunk of damage and pretend that a % cost reduction on spells was a more interesting passive? Claim 235 + 0.45 on a 4->3 second cooldown is no damage? Pretend getting 25% CDR and 10% AP at 17 minutes is too late in the game to matter?

Cuz that's what it's been so far, complaining that it isn't the same as pre-rework which was too good of a lane bully for how hard she scaled and extremely difficult to balance. 10 base damage off her E + 0.1 scaling off Q and she was never played again.

Do you even know what hyperbole means?

Even in your attempt to be a sarcastic smartass you STILL missed the original point which means you are either baiting a red herring hard or just honestly weeks late to the conversation.

So if you're done trolling and want to make an actual relevant counter-arguement please go read up on the months of context first. Not all of it ... just enough to grasp the theme. Otherwise understand I'm still laughing at the irony of your posts.

AHeroNamedHawke2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Grand Eleven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ss4y9cE8,comment-id=000500000000000000000001,timestamp=2014-12-24T23:18:11.105+0000)

Do you even know what hyperbole means?

Even in your attempt to be a sarcastic smartass you STILL missed the original point which means you are either baiting a red herring hard or just honestly weeks late to the conversation.

So if you're done trolling and want to make an actual relevant counter-arguement please go read up on the months of context first. Not all of it ... just enough to grasp the theme. Otherwise understand I'm still laughing at the irony of your posts.

Then tell me what the point is, as all I can see is the constant whining of "I don't like the spell her kit has been based on since release and will pretend she was an AoE poison mage"

If you don't want her based on her E then fine, but try to remove the rose tinted glasses of pre-rework

Knight SoIaire 2 votes

dude but your point in this thread is more like an opinion where you ask riot to fit cassio to your personal taste instead of adressing her personality problems

my personal opinion is that riot should make poisons feel more like an actual utility (because thats how we can actualy summarize her kit where q and w are utility while e is her damage) instead of forcibly making them feel impactfull by making her kit needlesly hard to use besides her mechanical dificulty

while the guy above you didnt miss the point but gave you actual counter arguments aided by actual examples to why he considers your points invalid and i personaly think that he is right

cassio in her state as she is now isnt bad but i think she needs some tweaks to make her kit less of a hassle to use

sorry man but for being such an ignorant this thread deserves to die as nobody will be able to uphold any real discussion here besides pushing their arguments on you while you defy them all just because they dont fit your fantasyy (and you prove this in the conversation with the guy)

yellowbricks5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hagane No Arashi,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ss4y9cE8,comment-id=000500000001,timestamp=2014-12-25T00:50:21.995+0000)

dude but your point in this thread is more like an opinion where you ask riot to fit cassio to your personal taste instead of adressing her personality problems

my personal opinion is that riot should make poisons feel more like an actual utility (because thats how we can actualy summarize her kit where q and w are utility while e is her damage) instead of forcibly making them feel impactfull by making her kit needlesly hard to use besides her mechanical dificulty

while the guy above you didnt miss the point but gave you actual counter arguments aided by actual examples to why he considers your points invalid and i personaly think that he is right

cassio in her state as she is now isnt bad but i think she needs some tweaks to make her kit less of a hassle to use

sorry man but for being such an ignorant this thread deserves to die as nobody will be able to uphold any real discussion here besides pushing their arguments on you while you defy them all just because they dont fit your fantasyy (and you prove this in the conversation with the guy)

New Cass is objectively bad from a design stand point.

Didn't riot say they hate ball of stat passives? Well look at Cass' passive, 30% AP, and a bunch of other stuff shoved into it, taking up a bunch of her power budget. What's worse is it's gated by a stacking mechanism that doesn't feel good at all, because each stack doesn't do squat on its own, only when you get enough for the arbitrary break point do you start having an actual passive (I believe they said they disliked Syndra's passive for that reason). Plus, all the stuff about thematics, and they get that wrong too. Why would a snake become more powerful by poisoning enemies? Shouldn't the enemy get a temporary stacking debuff from the poison? That'd make a lot more sense.

That's just her passive, the fact that almost all of her damage is loaded onto her E is another big flaw, like even her poison damage is now attached to it with the poison amp on it. I'm not sure riot said anything about hating that sort of design, but judging by recent champs and their swiss army knife style skills with passive components, active components, morphing into other skills, blah blah blah, I think they like champs that are more than just an E bot.

Since all her power budget is loaded onto the passive and E, there's not much left for her other skills, and it shows, abysmal damage even at full stacks, her poisons are basically just vehicles to assist the E spam and nothing more. This creates a problem so prevalent in league where every champ is shoehorned into one specific way to play. Before, you could decide to max Q first to focus on AOE damage, if you do that with current Cass, say goodbye to any sort of damage, it's all about her E now. Her E is a cool skill, don't get me wrong, a pseudo auto attack on a mage is unique, but it should not be the be all end all of her kit, there should be some variety to it. Sometimes it's just too dangerous to go in and spam E, that's why we need options.

There's a lot of work to be done, and stashu doesn't seem to be interested in doing anything about it because people are starting to get Stockholm Syndrome, as is evidenced by the lower popularity of Cass discussion threads. People don't want to talk about it anymore, they just want to play her during her fotm period until the shine is gone and then move on to the next shiny thing, leaving Cass in a state where even her former mains don't want to touch her.

Knight SoIaire 2 votes

Didn't riot say they hate ball of stat passives? Well look at Cass' passive, 30% AP, and a bunch of other stuff shoved into it, taking up a bunch of her power budget. What's worse is it's gated by a stacking mechanism that doesn't feel good at all'

riot doesnt like but it doesnt mean that it doesnt work and yes stacking is crappy but when you want to make a champion who is realy strong late game but gate his kit earl such a passive actualy works

That's just her passive, the fact that almost all of her damage is loaded onto her E is another big flaw,

theoreticaly but the thing is that riot already made this skill interact with her poison and i think that they should take this further, this way i dont find it as toxic as on other champions (the problem is in champions like nunu and zilean who have only one reliable offensive skill which causes stupid powercurves and other problems)

Since all her power budget is loaded onto the passive and E, there's not much left for her other skills, and it shows, abysmal damage even at full stacks, her poisons are basically just vehicles to assist the E spam and nothing more. This creates a problem so prevalent in league where every champ is shoehorned into one specific way to play. Before, you could decide to max Q first to focus on AOE damage, if you do that with current Cass, say goodbye to any sort of damage, it's all about her E now. Her E is a cool skill, don't get me wrong, a pseudo auto attack on a mage is unique, but it should not be the be all end all of her kit, there should be some variety to it. Sometimes it's just too dangerous to go in and spam E, that's why we need options.

well that was in my earlier post ... i would want to move the unique and interesting effects to q and w while still leaving her damage on e. You might consider this a bad ballance but 70% of champions in this game maxes one skill every game without choice because other skills have big drawbacks (max q on fizz because enemy can jump away often and you are a dead fish because your troll pole is everything , max e on akali to vaveclear and you gut your kill potential and it goes the same for most of champion). If we actualy equalize the power on cassiopea's skills we will either get op champion in the league of elise (whatever yyou throw at me i have a good counter move ... also this was the reason old wiktor had 2 useless augments ... so he couldnt just pick a skill thats best for situation) or we will get something so boring and blank that nobody will play iy (max yyour skill in random orderbecause it doesnt mean anything )

There's a lot of work to be done, and stashu doesn't seem to be interested in doing anything about it because people are starting to get Stockholm Syndrome, as is evidenced by the lower popularity of Cass discussion threads. People don't want to talk about it anymore, they just want to play her during her fotm period until the shine is gone and then move on to the next shiny thing, leaving Cass in a state where even her former mains don't want to touch her.

happens with every rework whats the deal ?

yellowbricks3 votes

Look, Stashu admitted this rework was rushed due to the Shurima event. So yes, the passive does "work" for making her late game heavy in the laziest possible way, but it doesn't change the fact that it's the most boring and tedious passive in the game. Now that the lore event is out of the way, Stashu should be spending more time collaborating with the community to try and find real solutions rather than just put bandaids on everything and call it a rework. Like Ginga said, it's been 2 weeks and stashu is MIA yet again, whether he shipped of to Jamaica to celebrate being done or if he's furiously working in riot labs to maybe make this thing good, we won't know until he posts, but judging from his past performance, I'm doubting the latter.

It's all about balance, you say having more than one actual damage move is hard to balance, but isn't that what riot's professional balance department is for? Shouldn't they be the ones trying different things and making something balanced AND fun, rather than taking the easy way out? What about poison makes you think "utility" anyway? Shouldn't being hit by poison do some significant damage to you? Heck, maybe it could even give a debuff of sorts like reduced MR or something so that her next attacks will hurt more or something. Poison being a pure utility spell just sounds so silly to me, because it is poison. If they want to go that route, don't even call it poison, because that's not what it is anymore, and another idea, just make a new darn champ at that point, because you're straying so far from what Cassiopeia is.

Also I love the way you ended the post, "happens with every rework whats the deal?", the deal is that this shit shouldn't happen to any champ. Look at Olaf, Eve back when she was too toxic to balance, Shaco, etc. It's bullshit, why would you want to maintain this status quo of shit rework, throw numbers at it, hypnotize community into Stockholm Syndrome, and let it sit in the garbage pile? I would like riot to actually do something about this awful rework (design wise, because I just know "muh winrates" and all that, which is why the discussions are dying down), I would like them to admit that their design is flawed in many ways, and actually listen to some community feedback to try and fix it. I don't want Cass to just sit in my shit pile until soon when they finally realize the error of their ways and try to make a glorious come back with a new new Cassiopeia which may or may not be even dumber than the one we have now.

Knight SoIaire 2 votes

What about poison makes you think "utility" anyway?

what you ask? i play cassio and i use those 2 spells as utility for either soft cc or speed up and to get my e

i called it an utility poison because thats the spot it mostly fills in her kit ofc after gating her e

its a game so we cant go too logicaly on it (why arent jinx grenades throwing shrapnell around .. also why are her guns changing sizes? )

Shouldn't being hit by poison do some significant damage to you?

no if something spits poison at me i should be wet on the other hand acid would work as you think poison should poison is only a problem when it gets in your blood o eyes/ mouth any holes

Heck, maybe it could even give a debuff of sorts like reduced MR or something so that her next attacks will hurt more or something.

utility to her poison ? i like it

If they want to go that route, don't even call it poison, because that's not what it is anymore,

aatroxs blood well should be an actual well on the map where ppl can drink water and chill beetwen dragons

again its a game so dont take it too logicaly

Also I love the way you ended the post, "happens with every rework whats the deal?", the deal is that this shit shouldn't happen to any champ. Look at Olaf, Eve back when she was too toxic to balance, Shaco, etc. It's bullshit, why would you want to maintain this status quo of shit rework,

because most of them arent real reworks and riot does this stuff inttentionaly

champions like olaf,eve or kassadin are unballancable, either you make them up or totaly op

so riot eitehr guts or reworks making another try at making their unballanceable moves ballancable usualy fails

real reworks are about to come (my opinion)

I would like them to admit that their design is flawed in many ways

on most of the champs excluding guys like garen

and actually listen to some community feedback to try and fix it.

you dont want that ... trust me on this one, players have no experience at making games nor they know what problems will their design face (riot knows and look at them)

Sarutobi3 votes

its probably the same place where the fix for leave buster is at as well!

MrSlowDie3 votes

Cass in free rotation, you know what this mean? they still collecting data

Grand Eleven2 votes

(also shouldn't there be like an indicator for marked units that they will take extra poison damage?)

She also really needs a unique poison marker, it seems at least that she no longer triggers off teemo/singed poison. I could be mistaken here ... it was poro king and there were TWO Teemos so it was hard to tell who was poisoned in the glorious chaos that was ensuing. Basically I see a blob of champions "over there" with generic poison cloud over someone ... so I spam some twin fang love only to watch things go on cool down. Boo.

Biooutbreak1 votes

Afaik the twin fang poison Reset hasnt changed, but when multiple non poisoned targets are close together, i sometimes fire a tf at the wrong target and it goes on cd. That may be what you xperienced?

Grand Eleven2 votes

Possibly. I know Stashu talked about breaking that interaction to keep things balanced but I've not thoroughly tested it. Regardless ... it's sometimes tough to know if you can TF reliably.

Elphrihaim2 votes

So... in my opinion, the Preseason Changes are actually screwing Cass.

Minions no longer having Armor/MR, to be exact.

Before, Cassiopeia could build Haunting Guise and still be able to clear waves because of that Magic Pen.

:/ So she has no fallback pattern (build Pen to clear waves).

Saevum1 votes

You forgot the "When" also.

5G8Nri0B542 votes

It's probably soon(tm)...which is a very broad range of times that can go from almost immediately when they decided Lucian should become a ranged Kassadin to "soon(tm)" as in the time how they're totally going to take a look at and fix Olaf once and for all.

Saevum1 votes

You're right. the definition of "soon" is relative.

Gorgiolio1 votes

What are you guys even talking about. I recently just started playing the new Cass ANNNNNND LOVE IT. She is completely and utterly broken. And really fun to play at the same time.

Raptamei1 votes

Cass needs to be reverted by popular demand. It's that simple.

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