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Ult reliant junglers struggle against the experience changes, please help

EmpressOfBeauty··38 votes·14,337 views

I'm a pretty new player only since February have I started and I play Evelynn and have been using Nocturne a bit more recently but before patch 8.10 I never had much trouble keeping up with experience with the laners, even if I help gank them early and they get the kill and I don't get much exp. But now when I play Evelynn and am pretty much forced to compete for the scuttler I am killed each time. She is such a weak duelist before level 6 without stealth and having to wait for her charm to fill. The damage isn't enough to compete with ANY other jungler (and she even has great sustain after each camp in her passive). So if she loses out then it sets her even further from level 6 and she is around level 4 by the time the top lane and mid lane are hitting 7. Ganking becomes obsolete!

And then, in not only 1 but 2 games I had 2 different allied yasuos steal my wolf camp (and then said he left me the big one but it wasn't even there when I got there) and my scuttler "for gold for Zeal and boots". What about the jungler's gold??? The jungler's experience? How can it all be contested for by 2 npcs that both junglers can rush for, but if they all beat up junglers like Evelynn early then what the heck.

I don't like to complain much but wow, even when I lane now I notice junglers have less of an impact. Can they have their experience back please. I can't even gank the enemy top lane for over-extending because he is 2 or 3 levels ahead and out performs me because no ult.

And when you are ult-reliant and 6 reliant like Evelynn just a forewarn please let your team know you won't gank for awhile because a 5 and below Evelynn will end up feeding unless the enemy laner is really low on health.

This isn't meant to be all about Evelynn, she isn't the only one affected. That's just my example from what I have experienced. Riot you need to stop. [sg-janna]

12 Comments

Ramyskie13 votes

This is due to the fact that junglers have too much impact in the game early game and thus by slowing their progress and making it more challenging(Competing for carb), it stops snowballs. Most of my games I am level 4 while lanes are 6, doing averagely, eve certainly felt much difficult due to the later power spike and the nerf to jungler item. A consequence of this is that snowball in lanes are much harder to contain. When enemy mid comes invade your jungle 2 levels higher is certainly a struggle given how useless/unhelpful my laners are.

EmpressOfBeauty2 votes

{quoted}

This is due to the fact that junglers have too much impact in the game early game and thus by slowing their progress and making it more challenging(Competing for carb), it stops snowballs. Most of my games I am level 4 while lanes are 6, doing averagely, eve certainly felt much difficult due to the later power spike and the nerf to jungler item. A consequence of this is that snowball in lanes are much harder to contain. When enemy mid comes invade your jungle 2 levels higher is certainly a struggle given how useless/unhelpful my laners are.

Yes exactly, I can ask for assistance 3 times and get none, but get flamed for being behind and not ganking when it eventually becomes impossible. I understand the scary early game champions like Elise, Rek'Sai, Lee Sin, Nidalee, Rengar, and Kha'zix can really jack up a game but maybe they need the nerfs, not the entire jungle except for the scuttlers.

Jaygo411 votes

Hilariously enough not a SINGLE one of those champions was a problem

Karfuss2 votes

{quoted}

This is due to the fact that junglers have too much impact in the game early game and thus by slowing their progress and making it more challenging(Competing for carb), it stops snowballs. Most of my games I am level 4 while lanes are 6, doing averagely, eve certainly felt much difficult due to the later power spike and the nerf to jungler item. A consequence of this is that snowball in lanes are much harder to contain. When enemy mid comes invade your jungle 2 levels higher is certainly a struggle given how useless/unhelpful my laners are.

Evelynn was never the problematic early ganker. She needed level 6 to be even remotely useful, and then scaled from there.

Nerfing jungler exp was a terrible, absolutely terrible, idea that hit ALL junglers, regardless of how good they were. Imagine nerfing mid lane minion exp because some mages are too strong.

What Riot has done, is made strong early game junglers the ONLY viable junglers. If they don't have any presence pre-6, they're outscaled by everyone else.

JustMonika131 votes

{quoted}

Nerfing jungler exp was a terrible, absolutely terrible, idea that hit ALL junglers, regardless of how good they were. Imagine nerfing mid lane minion exp because some mages are too strong.

The extremely biased Mage-main boards regulars would cause a fucking Riot.

VADMDangerNoodle2 votes

Nocturne is the only jungler I really play at all (I plan to save up for zac, but I might get pyke or morgana instead), mainly because he was the first assassin champ I messed around with (free rotation in like... february?). I've been trying blue, wolves, gromp, scuttle, or blue, wolves, lvl 2 pressure mid, and then scuttle. It's working sort of ok, but I don't play ranked (I'm lvl 29 :P). rarely been contested much, but I generally manage it with a fear on them and a smite on the crab then run away. whatever works :/

I'm both really new and not a jungle main, but I can definitely feel the struggle to have any effect early game as nocturne. I honestly just make zero attempts to gank before level six (except occasionally catching a super overextended lane thats absolutely BEGGING to be ganked). I generally just try to remain on the same side as where I think the enemy jg is to countergank if necessary.

Even with my game understanding the second I saw that they were changing scuttle to be more important I thought "well early scalers are gonna be king now, or laners are going to need to handhold their junglers desperately to help them keep even." It doesn't seem like that's far off.

With the faster timers, it honestly seems to encourage junglers to not only interact less early game, but spend even more game time farming and just having even less map influence.

I as a whole pretty strongly dislike the changes in all honesty. I'd much rather see a jungle meta focused towards late scaling even if it means avoiding fights than one that forces fights early and might very well cause games to be decided stupidly early.

EmpressOfBeauty1 votes

{quoted}

Nocturne is the only jungler I really play at all (I plan to save up for zac, but I might get pyke or morgana instead), mainly because he was the first assassin champ I messed around with (free rotation in like... february?). I've been trying blue, wolves, gromp, scuttle, or blue, wolves, lvl 2 pressure mid, and then scuttle. It's working sort of ok, but I don't play ranked (I'm lvl 29 :P). rarely been contested much, but I generally manage it with a fear on them and a smite on the crab then run away. whatever works :/

I'm both really new and not a jungle main, but I can definitely feel the struggle to have any effect early game as nocturne. I honestly just make zero attempts to gank before level six (except occasionally catching a super overextended lane thats absolutely BEGGING to be ganked). I generally just try to remain on the same side as where I think the enemy jg is to countergank if necessary.

Even with my game understanding the second I saw that they were changing scuttle to be more important I thought "well early scalers are gonna be king now, or laners are going to need to handhold their junglers desperately to help them keep even." It doesn't seem like that's far off.

With the faster timers, it honestly seems to encourage junglers to not only interact less early game, but spend even more game time farming and just having even less map influence.

I as a whole pretty strongly dislike the changes in all honesty. I'd much rather see a jungle meta focused towards late scaling even if it means avoiding fights than one that forces fights early and might very well cause games to be decided stupidly early.

I agree with you :(

Nøctμrne1 votes

I'm a Nocturne one trick, his early dueling is a little stronger than eve's, but with the current power picks he's still a ways behind. I've been doing rather decently in this meta, rushing for both scuttle crabs is my current tactic. I'll go buff-raptors/gromp then immediately path to scuttle, if I can take it, its free, if I can't I immediately go to the other scuttle to deny them an instant lead and level advantage, then I just follow the rest of my route.

DW Diana1 votes

{quoted}

I'm a pretty new player only since February have I started and I play Evelynn and have been using Nocturne a bit more recently but before patch 8.10 I never had much trouble keeping up with experience with the laners, even if I help gank them early and they get the kill and I don't get much exp. But now when I play Evelynn and am pretty much forced to compete for the scuttler I am killed each time. She is such a weak duelist before level 6 without stealth and having to wait for her charm to fill. The damage isn't enough to compete with ANY other jungler (and she even has great sustain after each camp in her passive). So if she loses out then it sets her even further from level 6 and she is around level 4 by the time the top lane and mid lane are hitting 7. Ganking becomes obsolete!

And then, in not only 1 but 2 games I had 2 different allied yasuos steal my wolf camp (and then said he left me the big one but it wasn't even there when I got there) and my scuttler "for gold for Zeal and boots". What about the jungler's gold??? The jungler's experience? How can it all be contested for by 2 npcs that both junglers can rush for, but if they all beat up junglers like Evelynn early then what the heck.

I don't like to complain much but wow, even when I lane now I notice junglers have less of an impact. Can they have their experience back please. I can't even gank the enemy top lane for over-extending because he is 2 or 3 levels ahead and out performs me because no ult.

And when you are ult-reliant and 6 reliant like Evelynn just a forewarn please let your team know you won't gank for awhile because a 5 and below Evelynn will end up feeding unless the enemy laner is really low on health.

This isn't meant to be all about Evelynn, she isn't the only one affected. That's just my example from what I have experienced. Riot you need to stop. [sg-janna]

Nocturne is still strong, just use his sustain and good clear to invade. Eve passive does suck, but right now any jungler is viable with help from their lanes. It's as much a change for laners as it is for junglers, and too few are adapting well enough to it.

EmpressOfBeauty1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Loki1987,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=seBxGGAn,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-05-22T17:45:14.636+0000)

Nocturne is still strong, just use his sustain and good clear to invade. Eve passive does suck, but right now any jungler is viable with help from their lanes. It's as much a change for laners as it is for junglers, and too few are adapting well enough to it.

Yes okay but Riot says they want to decrease jungle influence early on in lanes so by a laner helping the jungle early on it kind of defeats the purpose of the change anyway as the two are going to interact at level 2 to secure the scuttle and still may fight the enemy laner or jungle. Laners also need their cs and to focus their lanes.

DW Diana1 votes

{quoted}

Yes okay but Riot says they want to decrease jungle influence early on in lanes so by a laner helping the jungle early on it kind of defeats the purpose of the change anyway as the two are going to interact at level 2 to secure the scuttle and still may fight the enemy laner or jungle. Laners also need their cs and to focus their lanes.

I understand this, and there are many other options to the bot lane scuttle, like taking your top side buff, invading a camp in the enemy top jungle, then returning for the top side scuttle before completing your clear. If you can get one of your laners to put a ward in you bot side jungle you'll be able to see if they invade you and just continue to take their top side camps. The only real change here is the top/bot side divide.

Yes the duelist junglers are very strong at the moment, but riot have already released a load of nerfs to prevent this early game advantage.

It wasn't the interaction that riot wanted to stop, it was the IMPACT the junglers had on the lanes early. If the laner roams early they are having an effect on the jungle and that's a completely different thing.

Leto GT1 votes

Hum. If you're willing to get lvl6 asap, ignoring the scuttles is not a bad idea especially if you've a nice clear. I've tried many things and somehow most of the time I get lvl6 after the opponent if I actually take the two first scuttles on my first jungle clear - or put too much emphasize on them while I've gotta whole jungle to clear on the other side of the map. You need to find a balance between scuttles and your respawn jungle timers/pathing.

I'm really concerned by the rng aspect of the scuttles and even if they make them alternate, it won't change much imo unless you're willing to push your respawn timer further to sync your path with it. It'll just make as rng as it is now.

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