Why are resolve primary users being punished?

GigglesO·Dec 18, 2017·10 votes·3,436 views

The Ancient One (S+R Set Bonus) AD lowered form 15 to 12 AP lowered from 25 to 20 [New] Now gives +65 health

The Arcane Colossus (R+S Set Bonus) Changed from [+130 Health] to [+65 health, +6 Attack Damage or +10 Ability Power, Adaptive]

Why do I get more for going S+R than I do R+S

Edit thanks meddler for clarification that it was bad data on pbe. the guy running surrender@20's update page must be a bit behind. http://www.surrenderat20.net/p/current-pbe-balance-changes.html

26 Comments

RiotMeddlerDec 18, 201720 votes

Bad data on a previous PBE build. Intended value for Sorc primary/Resolve secondary is 65 HP and 10 AP or 6AD.

The Yetii RiderDec 18, 20173 votes

That's great and all but even with a tank's higher AP ratios 10 isn't going to help too much. Can't you just make it AD at all points so we can at least clear faster? (For Resolve primary)

MyozthirirnDec 19, 20171 votes

its adaptative. It will be AD if your champ needs and/or builds AD.

GigglesODec 18, 20171 votes

Thanks Meddler.

RalanrDec 18, 20173 votes

Though this does mean that resolve users are getting equal amounts of secondary stats even if they are primary resolve.

I kinda understand why you all are making it so that resolve secondary and primary gives more varied stats, but shouldn’t resolve primary get more HP with less adaptive while resolve secondary gives less HP (but still HP) but more adaptive?

LankPantsDec 19, 20171 votes

The would disadvantaging Resolve TBH. HP is a stat you don't want tons of. It's better in every way to get less HP and more Attack Speed/AD/AP.

Troll for TrumpDec 19, 20171 votes

HP can help a lot in winning early trades or living through lane, which is helpful, considering resolve primary users want to do one or the other.

Although more AD would be helpful for bruisers/skirmishers, tanks need to be considered as well.

HP has also been nerfed on a couple of items, so the stats from runes can help with that.

LankPantsDec 19, 20171 votes

I main a tank, I feel 100% confident in saying the AD/AS actually helps more.

AD helps in lane by allowing for better trades while AS helps a lot in the jungle. If you're a tank with decent ratios there's not even a contest.

GigglesODec 19, 20171 votes

I personally want to see some flat resists + hp. However I’m just glad that I missed the fix and Riot isn’t quite that crazy.

Critmaster GarenDec 19, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Bad data on a previous PBE build. Intended value for Sorc primary/Resolve secondary is 65 HP and 10 AP or 6AD.

but why is resolve nerfed for health? just so the combination of those trees gives the same stats in either case?

i dont like this. in certain matchups of extreme lane bullies like teemo or pantheon we really need the health more than ad/ap.

do the sorcery/resolve change if you think sorcery grants too much damage at lvl 1, but leave the resolve bonus at 130 health please. the primary users of resolve are tanks and juggs. and id rather take 65 more health on them.

imo binding those stats to the rune pathes instead of a path independent rune is bad design anyway. the champion pool is too diverse to generalize "every sorcery user wants ad or ap" or "every precision user wants attack speed".

Azir would probably prefer to go into domination or sorcery and get attack speed instead of flat ap for example.

some juggs like Nasus might want to go into sorcery primary and pick up 130 health instead of ad.

Critmaster GarenDec 19, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Bad data on a previous PBE build. Intended value for Sorc primary/Resolve secondary is 65 HP and 10 AP or 6AD.

ok you did this dumb stat split on everything? this really fucking sucks.

so when i want to go into resolve/precision on garen, i now have to lose out on 65 health for 9% attack speed? thats garbage.

those stat bindings are already pretty bad. forcing you to get an awkward mix of stats of which you only want one in most cases is worse. turn the stat bonus into a 7th rune slot and be done with it.

you just made precision a terrible secondary path for any spell focused champion. a lot of champions who want precision secondary dont even scale with attack speed.

an alternative would be to look into different starting items instead. pls dont let this get to live.

KazekibaDec 18, 20172 votes

Something something bruisers. Supposed to help MonkeyKing Camille but mostly Riot's pet Fiora trade better against Maokai and Galio etc., unkillable tanks by taking power away from them and making Resolve deal more damage. Also because Riot doesn't like mages, if the MYMU wasn't evidence enough of that, and preteen redditors don't like how they get one shot by burst mages while playing ADCs/assassins and cry about it.

Whisper87Dec 18, 20171 votes

Why not take away damage from tanks and give them tankiness in return? I mean a tank should not be able to murder a damage carry like Camille, I get why that is unbalanced, but the whole point of a tank is to shrug off damage. So let them do it. Make it so that they can't outduel a Camille or Wukong because they just don't have the damage, but also make it so that they aren't really under a lot of kill pressure early on and can neutralize lane or act as front line so sustained damage dealing back line can actually get some damage out before fight ends.

The way I see it, it' just different patterns of play that are equally balanced. If the tank is more tanky but less damage, then neither side has kill pressure right? So from minute 1 the Camille should be understanding and orchestrating how they are going to aggress onto better kill targets or snowball through lane. So she pushes Maokai in constantly and either kills tower or makes roam plays to jungle and mid, or a better tp play bot since she will not lose farm since she is pushed up. Maokai just sits in lane and wave clears and waits for an opportunity to be that cc bot front line tank for his team.

In team fights Camille dives squishies, while Maokai either peels for his carries or helps dive squishies. Camille has more options in lane, but Maokai has more options in team fights. Balance is achieved, neither one pwns the other one because tanks are not built to kill fighters and fighters are not built to kill tanks.

I've been posing this idea since preseason started and the base defensive stats have been reworked along with more up front damage being introduced with the new runes. I just don't understand why what I said above is unreasonable. Or is it that Riot just wants a different game and they are ok with how snowball things are right now?

SpookyNeedleDec 18, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Something something bruisers. Supposed to help but mostly Riot's pet trade better against Maokai and Galio etc., unkillable tanks by taking power away from them and making Resolve deal more damage. Also because Riot doesn't like mages, if the MYMU wasn't evidence enough of that, and preteen redditors don't like how they get one shot by burst mages while playing ADCs/assassins and cry about it.

Why riots pet got a 48% winrate though

KazekibaDec 19, 20171 votes

item 3076

KazekibaDec 19, 20171 votes

Her low winrate is exactly why Riot is moving damage stats onto the Tank tree.

PopcornBunniDec 19, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Something something bruisers. Supposed to help but mostly Riot's pet trade better against Maokai and Galio etc., unkillable tanks by taking power away from them and making Resolve deal more damage. Also because Riot doesn't like mages, if the MYMU wasn't evidence enough of that, and preteen redditors don't like how they get one shot by burst mages while playing ADCs/assassins and cry about it.

Camille already has a 52% winrate. She doesn't need any help. Neither does Wukong. Neither does any fighter. They already make up nearly 60% of winning toplaners, when it isn't Heimerdinger or Teemo .

Fighters are going to be the new meme in 2018. Just like people saying ADCs were weak when they weren't, then seeing what happens when these not-actualy-weak characters got item buffs. Adding all this extra AD to base stats and items is just going to make towers fall faster, characters that already have a hard time csing get punished even harder in trades, and make the game more snowbally.

EedatDec 18, 20172 votes

Because Rito doesn't want to nerf Tanks stupid base damages directly for some reason. They get the base damages of a Juggernaut while retaining utility and more survivability. Instead of making tanks viable through their kits, they just slapped a fuck ton of %HP damage on them and called it a day

xxxDogmanxxxDec 18, 20172 votes

That was bug that was already fixed five days ago. S+R bonus gives the same as R+S bonus.

GigglesODec 18, 20171 votes

Still shows it on surrender @ 20. My mistake. Normally S@20 is up to date on its info.

http://www.surrenderat20.net/p/current-pbe-balance-changes.html

PennsDec 18, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Tank/tanky guy has Resolve HP + dorans shield + second wind so nothing you do to them matters lel

good :]

MetalGearTeemoDec 18, 20171 votes

{quoted}

good :]

GAREN IGNORE PUNY HARASS. GAREN STRONGEST SUSTAIN THERE IS. Garen

redniwediSDec 18, 20171 votes

Not really sure what the purpose is. Tanks and Juggernauts are the main users of Resolve, with some Divers using it well, but it might be to discourage Skirmishers from playing with more tanky builds.

SpideraxeDec 18, 20171 votes

Gonna speak for surr@20 here, that bug fix was noted in a recent PBE patch but the current PBE balance changes arent updated till the end of the cycle and since 8.1 wont launch till next year we are taking things easy

AethariDec 19, 20171 votes

The point of this change is to shift tank vs bruiser matchups from being so far in tank favor that they're braindead, while also being safer scaling into mid/late via utility, to give bruisers/fighters a chance to actually do something in laning phase without having to go some janky rune setup for the sole purpose of making it out of laning phase against a tank without falling behind.

This, in conjunction with the new keystone for bruisers/fighters that they're putting in the resolve tree, will (hopefully) put them at their fervor status of sustained damage and make top lane a bit more skill expressive in tank vs bruiser matchups than it currently is. The tree stat splits alone are just there to help us survive until we have a real keystone to use.

Critmaster GarenDec 19, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Spectral Thief,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sbkNkg0T,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2017-12-19T12:49:02.382+0000)

The point of this change is to shift tank vs bruiser matchups from being so far in tank favor that they're braindead, while also being safer scaling into mid/late via utility, to give bruisers/fighters a chance to actually do something in laning phase without having to go some janky rune setup for the sole purpose of making it out of laning phase against a tank without falling behind.

This, in conjunction with the new keystone for bruisers/fighters that they're putting in the resolve tree, will (hopefully) put them at their fervor status of sustained damage and make top lane a bit more skill expressive in tank vs bruiser matchups than it currently is. The tree stat splits alone are just there to help us survive until we have a real keystone to use.

this change accommodates one group of champions and shits on another.

just proves that the current system with binding stats to the rune pathes is the wrong direction. you have too many too different champions with their own needs.

youre changing the stat system to the benefit of Jax and Irelia in case they want to go resolve. which isnt even guaranteed.

Garen wants straight health. giving up 65 health for 9% attack speed sucks ass, so this locks him out of precision as a secondary path, and sorcery becomes the only practical option.

really they need to work on starting items instead of doing bullshit like this. because then each champion can customize his own early game stats. or they need to separate the stat bonus from rune pathes by turning it into its own rune slot.

you chose your 2 pathes and then a 7th rune that gives you a choice between ad/ap, health, attack speed, cdr.

it already pisses me off that the trigger condition for most keystones is auto attacks.

do they ever stop to think that there are some champions who just dont auto attack a lot? if youre a marksman or any champion who scales with attack speed, you just automatically have an easier time triggering most keystones than champions who just scale with cdr and flat ad/ap and have slower animations.