"Shyvana is a juggernaut who's ult lets her sometimes be a diver" -Riot

BobaFlautist·Feb 14, 2017·32 votes·3,465 views

So does that mean that Sion is a Warden who's ulti lets him sometimes be a Vanguard?

Because that's kinda how it feels when you play him.

89 Comments

THE RlVER KlNGFeb 15, 201713 votes

No he's just a Vanguard lmao

EDIT: this post is really dumb I don't understand how it got upvotes, Sion has no interaction with allies whatsoever and is thus not a Warden, even if his CC is sometimes used to peel. Same goes for any tank.

Teridax68Feb 15, 20178 votes

This. For a champion to be a Warden, they need to have abilities expressly designed to protect, or at the very least assist allies. Sion has no ally-oriented abilities, which makes him a Vanguard.

At the same time, though, I don't think piling all non-Wardens into the Vanguard class really works, because different Vanguards do very different things. Sion, for example, mostly exists to provide area denial and disrupt multiple enemies at a time, as do tanks like Amumu and Sejuani. By contrast, champions like Leona, Nautilus or Rammus are mostly good at locking down one single target really, really hard. These champions play very differently from each other and, most of the time, are also valued for different strengths: the former tank subclass is really good at initiating, for example, because they usually have large AoE hard CC on their ult, whereas the latter is better at roaming and ganking, i.e. dealing with isolated targets. Riot might need to separate the Vanguard subclass into two more, especially since they're going to be updating a lot of tanks soon.

AHeroNamedHawkeFeb 15, 20178 votes

I'm glad Riot came up with all these retarded titles so we can spend even more time pointlessly splitting hairs

AhristocatsFeb 15, 20171 votes

back when we had like 5 or 6 classes tanks bruisers carries supports mages assassins, now we have divers, vanguards, wardens and other shit that are just useless

Chembaron YamadaFeb 15, 20172 votes

I think it is kinda useful. Marksmen already were pretty specific in their playstyle, describing an auto attacking ranged damage dealer.

But some of the classes back then just included way too many different playstyles.... Especially fighters and mages.

It is kinda confusing that fighters were including champions like Fiora Gangplank Illaoi These champions are just way too different from each other....

AhristocatsFeb 15, 20171 votes

gangplanks and fiora were carries, not fighters

Chembaron YamadaFeb 15, 20173 votes

The old class system included: tanks, fighters, marksmen, supports, mages and assassins as far as I know. There was no "carry" class.

Fiora and Gangplank still have the fighter tags in the new client, even when they are considered slayers now in the new subclass system.

DragonSheaFeb 15, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sVPbhQu1,comment-id=0008000000000000,timestamp=2017-02-15T13:41:36.294+0000)

gangplanks and fiora were carries, not fighters

Buddy, Carry is another name for the strongest team member that has the most impact in the game, usually,damage dealer.

The four you have mentioned can carry in their own right.

SlythionFeb 14, 20176 votes

I'm confused how Shyvana can be considered a juggernaut instead of a diver...what about her makes her more like a juggernaut?

Asayake 5150glowFeb 14, 201724 votes

{quoted}

I'm confused how Shyvana can be considered a juggernaut instead of a diver...what about her makes her more like a juggernaut?

Low mobility and range, lack of hard CC, high damage.

LankPantsFeb 15, 20172 votes

Low mobility and range,

But she has a high mobility spell and a strong ranged spell.

high damage.

As opposed to Irelia and Nocturne who are low damage, understood.

Hyrum GraffFeb 15, 201715 votes

{quoted}

But she has a high mobility spell and a strong range spell.

Without her ult, she has no dash. No dash is a juggernaut characteristic.

With her ult, refer to the title of this thread.

As opposed to Irelia and Nocturne who are low damage, understood.

If those champs build as much defense as Shyv builds, then they would have comparatively less damage, yes.

LankPantsFeb 15, 20172 votes

Without her ult, she has no dash. No dash is a juggernaut characteristic.

With her ult, refer to the title of this thread.

Without his ult, Nocturne has no dash. Should he be tagged as something else?

EROTIC RAID BOSSFeb 15, 20177 votes

he does have a lot of chase though and his ult lets him dive much further. I think calling shyv a juggernaut is pretty fair

LankPantsFeb 15, 20171 votes

I think calling shyv a juggernaut is pretty fair

I don't think it's unfair, but I think it's unfair to say she's not a diver. She clearly shares a lot of traits with divers, IMO she shares more with the average diver than the average juggernaut. She plays very similarly to other champs like J4, Hecarim and Renekton.

EROTIC RAID BOSSFeb 15, 20176 votes

most divers have more mobility by a pretty good amount. compare shyvana to vi, Camille, warwick or hecarim, who all have multiple spells and effects for getting to the backline. I guess you could say shes hybrid diver but she leans closer to jugg to me

Spaceman5pffFeb 15, 20172 votes

Shyvana item 3153 item 3068 item 3047 item 3091 item 3102 item 3022

In her prime, when Shyv could lane and her kit was good, not some butcher's table rework crap, shyv was no stranger to offense.

ABlueQuakerFeb 15, 20174 votes

Movement Speed =/= True Mobility

LankPantsFeb 15, 20171 votes

I must have missed the part where a 900 range dash is just movementspeed.

ABlueQuakerFeb 15, 20174 votes

Refer to Title.

Spaceman5pffFeb 15, 20173 votes

Shyv WAS low range, then riot decided to play with her.

As for her MS Buff: Garen Skarner

Pretty Typical for a juggernaut to have movespeed on a basic spell.

DragonSheaFeb 15, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Shyv WAS low range, then riot decided to play with her.

As for her MS Buff:

Pretty Typical for a juggernaut to have movespeed on a basic spell.

True, even Darius had an MS boost with his Passive until he traded it 5 stack AD boost.

macromiteFeb 15, 20173 votes

keep in mind, udyr is also a juggernaut, even though he can run. divers tend to have two solid dashes.

DragonSheaFeb 15, 20172 votes

{quoted}

keep in mind, udyr is also a juggernaut, even though he can run. divers tend to have two solid dashes.

Speed and mobility are to different subjects. Juggernaut have shit mobility as they can't dash or jump to the nearest target in an instant.

Many people think that hey, I can run fast, so I got mobility. so I ask: Does Sion have any mobility?

macromiteFeb 15, 20171 votes

i think you replied to the wrong person.

SpoofghoulFeb 15, 20171 votes

dude she has 21389749081237590182347509812357 movespeed

you can dash & blink and flash and ghost over 10 walls and she is still waiting on the other side of that last wall

can't exactly call that low mobility

Asayake 5150glowFeb 15, 20173 votes

{quoted}

dude she has 21389749081237590182347509812357 movespeed

you can dash & blink and flash and ghost over 10 walls and she is still waiting on the other side of that last wall

can't exactly call that low mobility

The movespeed is 50% decaying over 3 seconds, which can be extended up to 7 seconds if she's autoing, but it still decays.

That's nothing compared to an actual dash, because if she doesn't reach you in 3 seconds (slows/CC) then it runs out and she has 0 mobility left.

Meep ManFeb 14, 201713 votes

Lack of mobility outside of her ultimate, which is not the best mobility. She basically isn't mobile enough to be a Diver.

LankPantsFeb 15, 20172 votes

Can't this also apply to Nocturne then? He has a similar mobility spell on his R and the same amount of mobility as Shyv on the rest of his kit, they both have 1 speed boost.

DunkinNoobsFeb 15, 201713 votes

Noct has CC needed to lock down 1 target and kill them and a spell shield to prevent disengage. Shyvana does not. Noct locks onto 1 target and tries to kill them as fast as possible. Shyv does lots of indiscriminate AOE damage and autos whoever she can reach. Playing Noct like a diver is a generall the optimal way to play him. Playing Shyvana like a diver usually gets you kited and killed without doing much damage unless the enemy team comp sucks or your team paves the way for you with buffs and CC.

Big LincolnFeb 14, 20173 votes

low burst but VERY high DPS, low mobility outside of ult, lack of CC

i think they should push her more towards juggernaut in the future but she's a decent mix as is

ThefrostyvikingFeb 15, 20171 votes

Divers have some short cd mobility ability that they can activate without losing much damage or even gain some.

Shy is slow and needs W for both mobility and damage. And her only big gapcloser is a ultimate.

So what Riot means is probably that she is a hybrid like Diana. Or a juggernaut that acts somewhat like a diver just like diana is a diver that acts like an assassin while retaining some diver things.

DragonSheaFeb 15, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Divers have some short cd mobility ability that they can activate without losing much damage or even gain some.

Shy is slow and needs W for both mobility and damage. And her only big gapcloser is a ultimate.

So what Riot means is probably that she is a hybrid like Diana. Or a juggernaut that acts somewhat like a diver just like diana is a diver that acts like an assassin while retaining some diver things.

Diana is actually an odd mix of Diver/assassin and skirmisher. she has good sustain damage and powerful burst with her Ult

ThefrostyvikingFeb 15, 20171 votes

Well, lacking a specialized build the burst is fairly dependent on a combo that goes like Q-W-R-R is the quickest. Auto attacks for good measure with her passive.

And she lacks the durability to kinda stand and DPS outside 1v1 fights altho her 1v1 are unusually good because of the passive.

DragonSheaFeb 15, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Well, lacking a specialized build the burst is fairly dependent on a combo that goes like Q-W-R-R is the quickest. Auto attacks for good measure with her passive.

And she lacks the durability to kinda stand and DPS outside 1v1 fights altho her 1v1 are unusually good because of the passive.

Her W can be used to protect from damage but that wouldn't save her from focused fire.

ThefrostyvikingFeb 15, 20171 votes

Yeah that is why i said that while her durability is quite good for 1v1 scenario's it's lacking outside that. I myself play Diana with AP heavy build going something like item 3285 item 3020 ( item 3157 or item 3001 ) item 3089 item 3135 ( Whichever goes best first) Then i choose whatever i think i´ll need.

More damage? item 3100 .

Tankiness? Whatever fits the situation.

Finding myself needing either magic resist and armor while possessing the other? I buy whichever i didn't at the item 3157 item 3001 part.

Idea of this build was that the target dies from the Q-W-R-R combo without any chance of survival. This worked fairly well as long as i wasn't stupid. Only issue was CDR in the start.

DragonSheaFeb 15, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Yeah that is why i said that while her durability is quite good for 1v1 scenario's it's lacking outside that. I myself play Diana with AP heavy build going something like ( or ) ( Whichever goes best first) Then i choose whatever i think i´ll need.

More damage? .

Tankiness? Whatever fits the situation.

Finding myself needing either magic resist and armor while possessing the other? I buy whichever i didn't at the part.

Idea of this build was that the target dies from the Q-W-R-R combo without any chance of survival. This worked fairly well as long as i wasn't stupid. Only issue was CDR in the start.

Yep Diana does have a versatile build, making her a bruiser of an assassin. Trust me, Magic burst is scary as she has blitz's my team and then in a 4v5 she slips away and my team is dead. I am surprised she is not LB level even if she can't fight outside 1v1 well.

ThefrostyvikingFeb 16, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Yep Diana does have a versatile build, making her a bruiser of an assassin. Trust me, Magic burst is scary as she has blitz's my team and then in a 4v5 she slips away and my team is dead. I am surprised she is not LB level even if she can't fight outside 1v1 well.

Yah with a specialized build her burst is really good. However compared to LB before her recent nerfs she has one mayor issue, she is melee.

LB was ranged, had waveclear, mobility, CC and a damm high burst. Even if she flopped she could run away. If Diana screw's up or get's outplayed she dies. Her laning is also weaker due to being melee in a often ranged lane.

Hexs FortuneFeb 14, 20174 votes

Sion a warden? really?

ChaddyFantomeFeb 14, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hexs Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sVPbhQu1,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-02-14T23:41:02.759+0000)

Sion a warden? really?

most of Sion's Job is just disrupting and keeping people off your squishy teammates. TC's statement is totally accurate.

RalanrFeb 14, 20177 votes

Sion better at causing a bunch of havoc with all his AoE.

ChaddyFantomeFeb 15, 20171 votes

{quoted}

better at causing a bunch of havoc with all his AoE.

Yea... because of the disruption and peel it provides. Sounds like a Warden to me.

THE RlVER KlNGFeb 15, 20177 votes

Ok so is Sejuani a Warden because she can 'peel' with her ult? Malphite? Amumu? Gragas?

Sion is a Vanguard. Any CC can be used defensively, but that doesn't make every tank a Warden.

BobaFlautistFeb 15, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=THE RlVER KlNG,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sVPbhQu1,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2017-02-15T00:43:15.835+0000)

Ok so is Sejuani a Warden because she can 'peel' with her ult? Malphite? Amumu? Gragas?

Sion is a Vanguard. Any CC can be used defensively, but that doesn't make every tank a Warden.

Sion's Q is much much more powerful defensively (used to zone or peel) than offensively, except when he hits his ulti. Which, I was making a point of talking about.

Sion's e also shreds armor, which is fantastic for if you're peeling for an adc.

But his q is much less likely to get interrupted if used defensively, and the enemy diver/assassin can't really be like "oh ok I'll just walk out of this" while the backline of a team very easily can.

This, of course, all changes if you land a long range ulti.

THE RlVER KlNGFeb 15, 20175 votes

Jarvan's Q shreds armor and his knockup can be used defensively to escape or peel an ally

Is he a Warden?

RalanrFeb 15, 20172 votes

But his abilities can be better used actively rather than reactively.

SpoofghoulFeb 15, 20172 votes

yep

but he is still right, sion's abilities are much stronger in defending his allies then to engage

Ive won many fights by placing my Q over my ally when they miss position because this prevents anyone form diving them because they will be wrecked if they do But that is just 1 example

The E is fantastic peel for an adc, or any ad who can kite

And the W allows to bodyblock high damage skillshots if needed, like jhin ulti for example

Sion, outside of his ult hasn't got any good reliable engage, in fact even his ult is very unreliable, though with enough practice it should be reliable enough

But his ult is much much better at preventing disengages, after attempting a failed engage by his enemies

Sion excels at thwarting enemy engages by either stopping the engage in it's tracks or zoning off any followup which would force a disengage and this is where you use your ult to thwart any disengage attempts by running them down Because most of the time half the important cooldowns of your enemy are blown by then like dashes and cc so they can't stop you from annihilating them

Big LincolnFeb 15, 20171 votes