Riot: "Oh right, champion classes! Let's see..."

BobaFlautist··386 votes·11,241 views

We've got Marksmen, they do damage from far away, beautiful.

We have Enchanters, they help Marksmen do damage and stay alive, great class.

Wardens! That's a good one. Wardens sit in front of Marksmen and take damage for them. Then there are Wardens that sometimes use their ultimate abilities to start fights before walking back in front of their Marksmen, those are called Vanguards. They used to do damage and sometimes actually threaten Marksmen, so we had to nerf all their damage. They still wouldn't stop trying to fight Marksmen though, so what we did, it was actually pretty cool: we nerfed all their durability and stuck it all on an item that neuters their damage. That way they can't actually get to Marksmen without either dying or voluntarily cutting their own damage down. Brilliant.

We have Burst Mages, they used to be a huge problem because they'd occasionally actually kill Marksmen, can you believe that? They cut that shit out when we nerfed all their items and buffed Enchanters though, and now they serve the very important role of softening up the enemy team for the Marksmen to kill. Absolutely essential role, actually.

Divers actually had the same problem, they thought they were supposed to actually "dive in" and fight the Marksmen, you wouldn't believe it. We didn't want to take their fun away from them, so we just buffed the hell out of Enchanters and now they know on their own to target mages or even just pretend they are a Warden. Feisty little fellows, but they learn quickly if you show them a firm hand.

Catchers...we don't really like them, nasty pieces of work. We managed to trick them into basically playing as shittier Enchanters though, so we're enjoying that. As long as they stand by their Marksmen and peel, we'll leave them alone, and they know that.

Battle mages were tricky. We got a lot of complaints about them, and they're diverse enough that it was a serious challenge to squash them as a whole. We ended up having to rework them one at a time, just systematically removing most of the damage from their kits. Combined with the item nerfs and Enchanter buffs, they seem to have gotten the message and focused on softening tanks up for Marksmen. Seriously, I'm starting to wonder why we didn't pump more power into Enchanters sooner, it's worked wonders.

Assassin's - don't make me laugh. This game doesn't have any assassin's.

Slayers were actually quite easy, we just had to change all their damage to true damage/dps and they went right for those tanks. Worked out great, it happened right when engage-ultimate-Warde...er, sorry, Vanguards...were getting uppity and aggressive.

Juggernauts were the same story. Just stack armor pen and %hp on their kits, create black cleaver, and they sit right between Wardens and the enemy team, beating up any Vanguards or Divers that try something other than peeling. It's actually quite sad watching the ones that still haven't figured this out, their feet never touch the ground.

Seriously though, we think we have something great going here. It used to be a dangerous, limiting game for Marksmen but a combination of buffs, systematic nerfs to all their threats, and a ton of raw power pumped into Enchanters has worked wonders.

180 Comments

coback161 votes

Before you guys downvote.. its actually pretty funny and accurate:P

Critmaster Garen27 votes

{quoted}

Before you guys downvote.. its actually pretty funny and accurate:P

accurate, yes.

funny, no.

Shinjusuke64 votes

It's funny if you're one of the like 10 other classes that aren't Marksmen.

Otherwise I assume it makes you salty.

Jayce Top44 votes

I think he means its not funny because its true. Its so true thats not even funny.

Velzard of Koz11 votes

I mean. It's pretty obvious he's more of a Juggernaut guy.

Chembaron Yamada8 votes

Nah, obviously marksman main. He has crit in his name and we all know which class is utilising crit the most.

Mens Hair Club10 votes

garen

Chembaron Yamada11 votes

Yeah, I agree with his idea to rework Garen to a marksman. Garen throwing infinity edges with 600 range in bot lane, when?

Snowplosion12 votes

I was going to go with quite funny and highly exaggerated...

Bob the Toastr20 votes

Exaggeration? Literally no exaggeration lol.

RainXBlade32 votes

Not gonna lie, I got a small chuckle because of how painfully accurate this is.

Cries in assassin

Melledoneus42 votes

The post is funny.

The reality of it is mortifying.

KuroCaliber107 votes

You know, usually I'd call you out on being salty, but this is so accurate it belongs on the next Dev Blog.

Supreme Senpai698 votes

Was hilarious too. Wish more complaints were like this.

Elsewise61 votes

I laughed. Internally, I may have cried a little bit.

La Bello54 votes

I dont think Marksmen will ever be balanced properly until Riot addresses the crit problem.

Crit is the underlying problem for nearly every big headache with the damn class

Marksman too weak early? Its because crit makes thier late game strong and balancing 101 says you cant have a champion be good both early AND hyper scale into late!

Late game entirely revolves around Marksman? Infinity Edge and its stupid crit multiplier allowing people do deal 600~900 damage every other crit auto from the backline surprise

Marksman class too Reliant on RNG ? what do you think happens when you make the 15 minute must haves zeal and IE for 80% of the class?

Vayne/Corki/Twitch/Jhin just killed me in 2 autos wtf? By any chance did they have item 3031 in their build?

Why is Ezreal so underwhelming to play ? Because Ezreals build path cant make use of the items his entire class is balanced around

Probably the one thing I liked better about Dota 2 /Dota All stars was that the entire game was not balanced around Daedlus. Crit in those games were often a Luxury item you could pass over for more combat stats or useful items . Meanwhile here in LoL 60% of a marksman build will be geared towards critical strikes 9/10 times and the class a whole has to be balanced around it to the point of including critical strike as RATIOS in champions kit(Xayah Caitlyn MissFortune Jhin . I freaking hate Infinity Edge and the crit items and I wish Riot would remove it already and readdress the entire Marksman Itemization line again. I swear to god the way Riot treats critical strike causes more problems than its worth and someday I really hope Riot addresses this so we can begin to get more pick diversity and stop having Marksmen being staple in every single line up due to having access to such insane damage amplifiers. If Marksman weren't always the be-all end all of late game then we might see those odd ball season 1 lanes come back with things like support Annie and carry Nasus in bot.

dale simmons32 votes

...and lifesteal calculated off of critical strike damage.

ZT Xperimentor24 votes

So much of this, tired of them healing 1/3 of their health suddenly off a single hit. 'But they're squishy' marksmen mains cry. They're supposed to be, if riot would stop pampering them so bloody much.

Unironic SJW9 votes

{quoted}

I dont think Marksmen will ever be balanced properly until Riot addresses the crit problem.

Crit is the underlying problem for nearly every big headache with the damn class

Marksman too weak early? Its because crit makes thier late game strong and balancing 101 says you cant have a champion be good both early AND hyper scale into late!

Late game entirely revolves around Marksman? Infinity Edge and its stupid crit multiplier allowing people do deal 600~900 damage every other crit auto from the backline surprise

Marksman class too Reliant on RNG ? what do you think happens when you make the 15 minute must haves zeal and IE for 80% of the class?

Vayne/Corki/Twitch/Jhin just killed me in 2 autos wtf? By any chance did they have item 3031 in their build?

Why is Ezreal so underwhelming to play ? Because Ezreals build path cant make use of the items his entire class is balanced around

Probably the one thing I liked better about Dota 2 /Dota All stars was that the entire game was not balanced around Daedlus. Crit in those games were often a Luxury item you could pass over for more combat stats or useful items . Meanwhile here in LoL 60% of a marksman build will be geared towards critical strikes 9/10 times and the class a whole has to be balanced around it to the point of including critical strike as RATIOS in champions kit(Xayah Caitlyn MissFortune Jhin . I freaking hate Infinity Edge and the crit items and I wish Riot would remove it already and readdress the entire Marksman Itemization line again. I swear to god the way Riot treats critical strike causes more problems than its worth and someday I really hope Riot addresses this so we can begin to get more pick diversity and stop having Marksmen being staple in every single line up due to having access to such insane damage amplifiers. If Marksman were the be-all end all of late game then we might see those odd ball season 1 lanes come back with things like support Annie and carry Nasus.

I've been saying this for months that Critical Strike is the fundamental issues with the ADC class and I play ADC. Honestly the state of the class was almost perfect when we had Armor Pen (not Lethality) ADCs in late S6, we just needed to rebalance the "crit" ADCs around being able to be late game threats without crit and tune the ArPen ADCs downward a tad.

34112354565240 votes

you forgot skirmishers like jayce azir gangplank riven yasuo etc.

ill add that in for you :Turns out they were doing really high dps and playmaking to match the carry potential of marksmen. This clearly was starting to become a problem for the absolute intended dominance of the anime hero marksman and anime egirl enchanter support. This issue was quickly fixed. Can't have even the highest skill champions interrupting the main plot storyline of the 12 year old marksman hero.

GayFluffyUnicorn16 votes

It's so depressing to play gangplank and MAYBE hit a crit barrel and everyone be like OP OP OP OP and then jinx walks up and does the same. Every 0,5 seconds. Or twitch, just from 900 range. I don't even talk about jayce. While i have a lot of succes on him right now it's mostly due to me banning tristana and xayah. No way in hell you are able to 1v1 them. And after 25 mins there is no reason for you to going for the backline. All you can do is trying to shred the frontline and QE a few times to distract the backline.

freeloader2538 votes

Assassin's - don't make me laugh. This game doesn't have any assassin's.

Sure this game has assassins in it. Twitch Vayne

Great post, i laughed while being sad, thank you sir.

IcyPepper30 votes

I feel like there's a pattern here.

Maybe something to do with marksmen.

I'm not sure tho

Kaìju25 votes

Ashe main chiming in here. Someone raised a really good point to me on Reddit the other day about Ashe and how she's currently struggling some. He pointed out she's in a weird limbo because of how her passive works. She actually does scale linearly with crit, at least more so than other marksman. As much As I hate to admit it because it was her whole niche, I think it really would be best if all marksmen worked like her. Crit is a gamble, your DPS is based on luck, and to remove that gamble you literally build so much luck that you can not fail. To me that feels like playing a game like Fallout with a full luck build and knowing I'm gonna cripple the enemy every hit because I species into it. Worthless until suddenly it isn't. I think crit is a problem and I know Riot doesn't want to get rid of it but honestly, what have you guys got to lose? Sure I get it it's a lot of work, but so is a ton of the other stuff you guys do. Every season you try to revamp the game bigger and better than ever, so why not just listen to us and try it? You the Devs don't need to be the ones solving every issue. If crit is removed you can scale ADCs linearly with how they should be. Cait and Lucian can start with high as fuck stats that don't really grow at all per level, and champions like Vayne or Kog can get shit stats but gain a lot per level plus gold. Why not give ADCs specific starting items that give them extra XP if they are in a duo lane sort of like what Mord was intended to do, but make it do nothing if you aren't splitting XP so it can't be abused. That way you can have ADC scale with level like everyone else and gold will just boost those scalings with things like % att speed and AD. At this point you guys have made a juggernaut of a game. And look at it this way. If it works, it works, hurray! If it doesn't work, then we deal with it, change it back after the season or at mid season, and forever more if the community says to do it again, you can tell us to shut our mouths! Just, try man. You guys took risks to get here, why not take this one.

Automatis20 votes

tl;dr buff adcs

deadlychuck16 votes

The problem with assassins as a class, is that the game existing in a state that assassins do their job, is going to also cause a lot of other problems. Either from making tanks have too much lock down nullifying anything besides assassins or marksmen having too much damage to lose to anything other than assassins.

Although this is the system that riot themselves created (god fucking knows why) assassins > marksmen > tanks > assassins.

Unfortunately they seem to forget that there exists multiple classes between tank and assassin, mages are just fucking nowhere to be found, and mage/tanks (aka supports) are also just completely neglected.

chipndip112 votes

Shit talks catchers.

Catchers/Tanks are the strongest support classes in pro play.

Salty ass saltines on these boards. Enchanter cheese only works in solo queue...even if some catchers still use Ardent Censer.

IcyPepper22 votes

Catchers/Tanks are the strongest support classes in pro play.

How many of us are pro?

chipndip15 votes

Doesn't mean catchers and tank supports are bad.

Just means that coin is the most unhealthy gold gen item in the game, and causes a huge divide between coordinated LoL and the chaos of solo queue LoL.

That's why I called it "Enchanter cheese".

The Yetii Rider12 votes

Assassin Update - "Oh god Shaco/Rengar/Kha'Zix are murdering us!"

Riot - "Alright, we got this."

6 months later - "Assassin update was terrible, none of them are viable now."

Riot - "..."

Shinjusuke9 votes

As an Assassin main:

People were justifiably complaining that assassins could assassinate everyone, even without snowballing much, and also were able to win duels.

That's what an overpowered assassin looks like

Now assassins can't even assassinate the targets they're supposed to be able to, those being squishy supports, or ADCs, or immobile mages. This is largely because once again, due to Riot's favoritism for ADCs, every Assassin item introduced with the update just became an ADC item because Riot refuses to lock ADCs out of those items, and then the ASSASSIN ITEMS got balanced as if they were ADC items. So now the targets of assassins are using assassin's items better than assassins, AND ADCs already had a ton of anti-assassin options, AND Riot made it so GA is not only incredibly easy to build into for ADCs (I mean it builds out of the item almost every ADC rushes) but is cheaper and doesn't hurt their DPS in midgame by a whole lot. So now assassins are fucking useless unless they're just plain 2x better than everyone on the enemy team.

That's why people say they're unviable.

Cuz they are.

Cuz Riot cares more about one class than any other, and assassins were a direct threat to that class.

The Yetii Rider2 votes

That's idiotic.

AP assassins (other than those who were changed, so Katarina Leblanc Shaco Fizz andEkko ) were unaffected by the assassin rework. So were mages.

AP assassins should be just as effective at killing enemies as they were before the update. And mages should be just as vulnerable.

And Ekko just got buffed. He's great right now.

Shinjusuke8 votes

AP Assassins have been weak for ages.

Of those 5, Kat is the only one that's largely effective, and only in certain matchups. Leblanc is usually on the weak side, and Fizz rubber bands between being weak and being decent constantly based on his competition.

Ekko has been hit or miss ever since "tank" Ekko was removed (thank god). He's better this patch than he has been, hence his higher play rate, but he's certainly not countering the likes of Kog'Maw, Trist, or Twitch (like he should be able to if you were right).

You not knowing what the fuck you're talking about doesn't mean people saying things you don't like are idiotic. Go somewhere else with your blind ignorance.

You're right, assassins can kill (some) of the mages. They're still the weakest class in the game by far, and still can't do their primary job (killing ADCs). Mages aren't the highest-priority target in teams and haven't been in quite awhile. If an assassin, whose entire purpose is to be able to knock out the highest priority target (when played correctly and not behind), and they can't do that because of things like overbuffed ADCs, overloaded ADC items, and overly powerful support items, there is an issue. Period.

I'm sure that logic is simple enough for even you to follow. If not, I can't help you and I'm not wasting my time typing up another post for you.

Tranoze11 votes

WE DO HAVE ASSASSIN Vayne Draven Caitlyn Tristana Jhin KogMaw Ashe Lucian MissFortune Quinn Sivir Twitch Varus Xayah

DuskDaUmbreon9 votes

Oh, come on. Ashe? Like, even joking, she has no burst. She's nothing but DPS, utility, and CC.

skyskee0089 votes

Yeah there's a reason Riot doesn't listen to boards.

The Trent9 votes

I personally think this was hilarious! I agree with everything you've said too.

Sadly, some mages such as Syndra still haven't learned their place. Syndra keeps ulting marksmen! I don't know what that champion thinks she's doing when she should be peeling and assisting the marksmen.

GayFluffyUnicorn6 votes

Well the only good mages are ori, syndra, tali and maybe cassio. And only because of their absurd damage. Every other mage is shit.

martincastillo27 votes

{quoted}

Well the only good mages are ori, syndra, tali and maybe cassio. And only because of their absurd damage. Every other mage is shit.

Old Ryze was one of the most fun champions I have ever seen, but since he could snare the enemy marksman that was standing right infront of a Ryze with 4 passive stacks, let's just rework him and make him the most garbage champion in the game*[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]*

PePsiLemoNN5 votes

Could you make your point without spilling salt all over the floor? :^)

K let's nerf marksmen to the ground , what next? People will find the next class with the biggest carry potential and play around them instead.

Joseraph21 votes

The point isn't to nerf ADC to the ground, it's to let the other classes that don't give ADCs free handjobs to exist. Go on Lolalytics, and find me a non-support tank that doesn't have Knights Vow as a 55%+ win rate item, or as a Winning Item.

trashbagz5 votes

[deleted]

Theorchero3 votes

{quoted}

Remove Infinity Edge from the game. That is the solution.

Gangplank :(

Dominick Destine6 votes

{quoted}

Gangplank

And nothing of value was lost...

Saianna2 votes

Morello Meddler: How to make game fresh while doing almost nothing? Rioter_1: Lets fix ADC powercreep issue? [Deathstare from Morello and Tencent] Rioter_2: Lets make new skins for only 99.99? Rioter_3: I know! Lets rename classes! Morello: GENIUS!!!!!!!!!1111111111111

No, seriously. What's the fucking point of renaming support to enchanter, tank to vanguard? Like.. Wtf?

Chembaron Yamada7 votes

Renaming the classes was actually quite handy. I mean, come on, do you want to tell me that Juggernauts and Divers are even slightly playing the same? In the old system, both were simply "Fighters".

The Whamboozler3 votes

I feel the new names don't... really matter much. I hope that they didn't spend much manpower or effort in coming up with those distinctions. Calling Galio a "diver" over an "AP bruiser" wasn't really making or breaking me. That Garen and Pantheon were both called "fighters" despite playing differently didn't really give most people much problems. If anything the new divides have just kinda started a ton of arguments over what champs belong in what roles... and even then most champions don't fit neatly into only one or two roles anyway. It was just kinda wasted effort for no real gain.

Chembaron Yamada6 votes

Ok, why then have categories at all? Because if we are honest, the title "fighter" meant literally nothing.

There was no trait defining what is a fighter and what isn't. It was just a random group of champions. Going on the main page, where these categories still exist to filter, it shows that fighters include these: Aatrox AurelionSol Blitzcrank Camille Darius Diana DrMundo Ekko Elise Fiora Fizz Gangplank Garen Gnar Gragas Hecarim Illaoi Irelia JarvanIV Jax Jayce Kayle Khazix Kled LeeSin Malphite MasterYi Mordekaiser Nasus Nautilus Nidalee Nocturne Nunu Olaf Pantheon Poppy Quinn Rammus RekSai Renekton Rengar Riven Rumble Ryze Sejuani Shyvana Singed Sion Skarner Swain Talon Taric Thresh Trundle Tryndamere Udyr Urgot Vi Volibear Warwick MonkeyKing XinZhao Yasuo Yorick Zac Zed

Now I want to ask: Which trait do all these champions have in common that it makes sense to include them in a group? In my opinion, there isn't, it is a random roster. But maybe you can tell me a criteria.

I am coming from a scientific background and if you actually want to organise something, it's important to have a criteria to differentiate between the groups. If you don't, your organisation is literally pointless, it has no sense.

That was the case with the old system. You may feel that there lies no benefit in organising the champions at all, but at least the current system is made in a correct way, using criterias, instead of just randomly putting champions in a category.

Wildlife17 votes

Aurelion Sol in the fighter list should be a sin

Chembaron Yamada5 votes

And that's exactly what I mean. There are champions in that list that don't really make sense like Aurelion Sol, Swain, Ryze, Quinn....

And therefore, the old system was just worthless. There was no meaningful information in the tag "fighter", so I understand that they wanted to change that.

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