@Riot, is Grevious Wounds considered a healthy mechanic?

Over Innsmouth··3 votes·482 views

I've talked about this before in various comments scattered throughout the Boards, and typically anyone familiar with my MO knows that I have a bleeding personal vendetta against Grevious Wounds.

But even that aside, I still think it's an unhealthy mechanic.

Imagine if there was an item that flat out reduced a significant your AD, or your AP, or your defenses, or even your max health. That's what GW feels like for healers. I'll use Vladimir as an example when constructing my point, as I'm most familiar with him out of all healers.

Since his MYMU rework and subsequent balance tweaks, Vladimir does only one thing well: healing, and he's not even the best at it. In sustained fights, Vladimir's healing is beaten by Fiddlesticks, Swain, or basically any ADC with a Bloodthirster (though that's an issue in of itself). Where Vlad's value comes in is in the cases of the former two, where he beats them by virtue of lacking a resource and therefore can win if he can survive until their mana runs out. Vladimir also gets his high moments in managing good heals; Crimson Rush and landing good ults.

Except no I don't. Because every AP midlaner bar a couple buys Morellos (it's not really their fault, since Athenes is no longer an option) and every ADC buys Mortal Reminder once they see me - which as an item is excellent and has very little in terms of tradeoffs since it also invalidates shreds tanks. With Morellos, the caveat is that at least I have do be within a certain threshold of health for the GW to activate, which makes it harder for me if I let myself get to that level of health. That's (more) acceptable. However, I get hit by a stray Runaans or random, unintentional bit of ADC AoE (such as Sivir's Q or W, or one of Ezreal's many, many Q's) and boom.

There goes my value as a Champion. I no longer feel impactful, as I can no longer perform my primary function: drain-tanking and soaking up damage while restoring lost health through the virtues of my kit. In my games as Swain or my very, very rare games as Dr. Mundo, I suffer the same issue.

Healing-based Champions might make the game unfun for those who face them, but Grevious Wounds actively removes healers from the game as meaningful factors outright.

GW shouldnt exist, or at least not in such a state where it functionally removes a subclass of Champion from the game. Perhaps it could stack additively, each stack adding a value of anti-healing (starting at 10%, + 10% with each successive application up to a cap), so that healers don't feel so irrelevant when hit by the aforementioned single stray Runaans. Perhaps it could be inversely proportional to the health the healers possess, having a greater value of anti-heaing at higher % health but dwindling to lower values as the healer gets lower. Perhaps make it so that the healer can deny some of the anti-healing effect by attacking the person applying GW to them, give the mechanic some interactivity around it. Literally any of these would be better.

Your thoughts, Riot?

Yours Cordially, Tides of Blood.

17 Comments

GULAG 4 U3 votes

It is not. You can easily make sustain less oppressive and strong of certain champions (Namely aatrox, mundo, vladimir for example) when you make grievous wounds weaker (less accessible). With grievous wounds so easily accessible, the "drain tanks" sustain must be over the top because you can get rid of their entire niche by paying a bullshit 800 gold.

For example, Zed. By making Qss no longer making his ult useless, you can now tone down the damage and power of his ult. Same for Fizz.

Ralanr3 votes

I think in the future grievous wounds will go the way of spellvamp and pinks revealing stealth. Removed so the champions it counters can be properly balanced without you requiring those items to beat them.

BIackfox1 votes

can someone seriously make a thread like this who mains a champ that requires MR for GW to be built? This is like if i made this thread.

ModWulf Helhammer1 votes

I'm confused as to what you said

GULAG 4 U1 votes

Essentially implying you will get downvted and called biased, that's what I understood.

Desolas Arterius1 votes

Question: What is your opinion towards summoner 14 since it does the same as GW towards healers, but doesn't require you to be at a certain %?

Over Innsmouth1 votes

On the basis that it's on a three minute (correct me if I'm wrong) cooldown and the dangerous part is actually the true damage rather than the GW, I'm more or less fine with it. I occasionally die because I couldnt heal enough, but I don't feel like that's an unfair mechanic, and by igniting me just to deny me heals they didnt ignite someone else for a kill.

I'm fine with Ignite.

Desolas Arterius1 votes

Makes sense :) So it's more so the issue with how well the GW items work for almost every champion outside of just countering drain tanks/healers. (especially because some supports can take Morello) I get that.

Probably if Riot removed GW it would mean those heals would have to be reduced however. Even champions like Illaoi and Volibear would have to have their self-healing reduced slightly since GW are major counters to them. Might make it better though, but right now the "healing" champs have ridiculous healing because GW exists and has existed for a long time.

It's definitely cheap, I can agree with that, but without it those champions would become terrors if there was no way to counter their healing.

Perhaps that will be something they'll put into the next big balancing patch. I hope so, it's equally frustrating either going against a drain tank with no GW available, or playing as a drain tank and getting your usefulness stripped from you because of GW.

I used to main Aatrox jungle until they made Mortal Reminder and updated Morello. So I feel you :(

Vekkna1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tides of Blood,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sFEYtiTh,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-10-20T20:26:26.388+0000)

Imagine if there was an item that flat out reduced a significant your AD, or your AP, or your defenses, or even your max health. That's what GW feels like for healers. I'll use Vladimir as an example when constructing my point, as I'm most familiar with him out of all healers.

Like summoner 3?

Also, you have a 62% win rate on Vlad. Only 3 of your last 20 games on Vlad had an enemy with a Mortal Reminder, and one game with an Executioners. Of those 4 games, 3 of those players were diamond.

In other words, you're complaining about something that doesn't happen with a win rate that's vastly higher than average. So you get a big NOPE from me.

Over Innsmouth1 votes

Except the Exhaust effect isnt on a purchasable item that you can constantly apply, it's on a significant cooldown and is single-target. See my reply to someone asking me about Ignite for that type of situation.

My winrate is higher than average because I main Vlad and I like to think I'm pretty damn good at him, and Vlad's average winrate is fairly poor right now.

My post isnt about how often people are buying GW items, otherwise it'd have something to do with telling people to get Lord Dominicks instead, however I'd go about that. It's about the mechanic of Grevious Wounds itself. You've gone off-topic.

hunterspec1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tides of Blood,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sFEYtiTh,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2016-10-20T21:27:28.611+0000)

Except the Exhaust effect isnt on a purchasable item that you can constantly apply, it's on a significant cooldown and is single-target. See my reply to someone asking me about Ignite for that type of situation.

My winrate is higher than average because I main Vlad and I like to think I'm pretty damn good at him, and Vlad's average winrate is fairly poor right now.

My post isnt about how often people are buying GW items, otherwise it'd have something to do with telling people to get Lord Dominicks instead, however I'd go about that. It's about the mechanic of Grevious Wounds itself. You've gone off-topic.

mains vlad. complains about grievous wounds. They aren't gonna change something so vital to the game and they shouldn't and my favorite champs get fucked over GW. deal with it.

Over Innsmouth1 votes

GW was absent for an entire season and there was very little uproar. I'd hardly call it vital.

I have an issue with GW because I think it's a badly designed mechanic, not because I'm a Vlad main and I want my Champ to win every game from Champ Select. My opinion and my main happen to coincide, they're not related.

Vekkna1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tides of Blood,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sFEYtiTh,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-10-20T20:26:26.388+0000)

and every ADC buys Mortal Reminder once they see me

Tides of Blood.

That's demonstrably false. You want to buff a champ that does not need buffs to his healing. Your stats demonstrate quite well that Vlad can be very strong, so I commend you.

People only buy GW items when there's a possibility of a healing champ becoming essentially unkillable, like a fed Zac or Warwick. I'm happy something exists to make them killable. Unkillable champions are unfair.

Over Innsmouth1 votes

Unkillable Champions are unfair, you're right and I agree.

I don't want GW removed, since I understand the position it'd put healers. I want it retuned so that it doesnt make playing healers feel so useless once they come under fire, at least not immediately. It's a mechanic that could really use some interactivity.

VictoriousBard1 votes

Is everyone forgetting what a busted piece of shit Soraka was when Grievous Wounds only worked on self-healing?

You definitely can't just remove it and I doubt you can reverse things and make it not work on self-healing either.

Over Innsmouth1 votes

Then...nerf Soraka? Everyone wins.

Or make her healing less obnoxious. Make it a DoT heal or less effective when you spam it like Summoner Heal or something.

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