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New Rylais is Protobelt tier.

Over Innsmouth··48 votes·3,639 views

What that means, is that it's an item you can rush because it's cheap but feels like a massive waste of a slot come late or even midgame.

Lowering the slow and the AP was a step in the right direction, I'd argue that lowering the HP is not. It needs to be should be a niche item for AP champions who need a little cc to function because of their immobility, lack of range, and lack of cc, and who like the health.

No, that does not apply to Brand Malzahar Cassiopeia Syndra Viktor and whoever else has been making the game a nightmare with their slows, massive innate damage, and innate cc. I'm glad that it's going to be a subpar item on them.

But it's also going to be a subpar item on those who actually consider it core. Vladimir Rumble AurelionSol Karthus (debatable) and of course Mordekaiser . Champions who lack innate hard cc, range, mobility, and who really like the health due to their in-your-face fighting styles.

We still have the rest of the PBE patch for it to be tuned and given more health (which is what I would do personally, maybe even drop the AP a bit more). I wouldnt mind having to pay more as well for more health than it currently has.

65 Comments

Rouwhorst18 votes

Why do you consider Malzahar not a core user of rylais? -lacks range -lacks mobility He does not have cc apart from his ultimate, and I would argue that it is too little to reliably deal damage to someone. And in a quick skirmish you do not want to use your ultimate initially just to see the enemy run away from you. Without rylais everybody just walks away from you or come too quick in range.

Over Innsmouth9 votes

Have you ever been E'd by Malzahar with Rylais?

That's why.

That, and, he has decent ranges and can function fine by just sitting in the backline spamming Q's on the enemy team.

kile14710 votes

To be fair, that's more an issue of Rylai's not being weak enough with DoT. It should apply an initial slow that gets weaker as it gets reapplied. That change alone would have removed a lot of the "abuse" feel that Brand and Malzahar had with the item.

Bladerunner77776 votes

Have you ever played against a Vlad with Rylais?

Have you ever played against an X with Rylais?

Rylais isn't fun at all

Over Innsmouth6 votes

Vlad's application of Rylais is cd based, and the E can be blocked.

Malz clicks on you and laughs as his team catches up with you from half the river away.

Voluug136 votes

Vlad's Q gets a more potent slow (st vs dot), it costs no mana, gives back hp, and its just as point and click. And he has a built in speed up to get on its range easier.

The situation you describe seems to come from your own experience, and the scenario just stinks to being your fault for getting caught alone. Where was your team? Why were you on river with no vision of Malz or his team?

Over Innsmouth5 votes

Crimson Rush is entirely unnoticable unless you were a unit or two from hitting someone with Q, it's barely a movement speed buff.

Vlad's Q is only ever a damage threat half the time (and that's with good Rush management), and the 1.5 applied by Q is significantly shorter than the 4 seconds of Malefic Visions.

In any case, I feel like I got off track and jumped to defend my Champion. Bladerunner7777 got the point, which was that Rylais in it's current state isnt really fun for anybody playing against it. My qualms with Malzahar are more directed at Malzahar with Rylais than Malzahar himself.

Rouwhorst1 votes

His Q range is decently large yes, but the range of his W,E and R are comparable to the ranges of the mages that "need" rylais. Furthermore his Q is not the focal point of his damage, I think it is the least of his power budget.

spamming q can also be said for karthus, but he needs rylais?

Erockandroll5 votes

okay philosophical question.

Your complaining about Crystal scepter being in the same tier as proto belt because it's a core item on champion X. My question is Should it be?

Cause that would imply that those champions are inflexible, and must have both the Slow utility and the lump some of HP all in one item. A poorly balanced champion. (Especially Mord, he's in a much bigger mess that requires more than just Crystal scepter) Chances are, many of those champs became that inflexible because they were balanced around a problematic item. Sure those champions might need buffs afterward, but they can be buffed into a much more flexible environment.

And as for crystal scepter itself, it fill a slightly more niche role, as it doesn't have the slot efficiency of a core item. But it will still be relatively core on anyone who wants the slow. And they can get that slow, sooner, or on the fly, thanks to it's reduced cost. For a niche item, it will be very accessible.

Voluug132 votes

Yep. Rylai on Malz was a nice, but optional buy. Before his rework gutted his reliability.

Now Malz needs to utterly abuse and rush the item because otherwise his damageis too unreliable without it, and the more time passes people complain more about his passive, and everything else gets gutted. His QE damage is below mediocre, his R is just peel for your adc/CC for your voidlings, and all his damage is basically gated by having lots of voidlings, which require Rylai's slow to work properly.

The Yetii Rider4 votes

The item being cheaper and easier to rush is good, because its passive isn't there until you complete the item. Then you have an easier time farming/getting kills so you get more gold to build a big ticket Health item like Rod of Ages.

"But muh manaless champs"

Manaless champs should feel like their builds are difficult or inefficient. They get an easy early game, they should pay for it with a bad late game.

Malicious Metal7 votes

Mordekaiser literally uses his own HP as a resource, he's not manaless by a long shot. Also, being a non-mana users locks him out from building some of the better AP items.

The Yetii Rider2 votes

No it doesn't. You can build RoA and be happy with the AP and health. You can build Morello and be happy with CDR and AP. The only item having no mana locks him out of is Archangel's Staff.

Rylai's with 400 is too much health on Sol and Annie and other mages who build RoA with Rylai's.

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

Quick question, does Morde have flat or % health costs?

EndlessSorcerer3 votes
  • Q: 20 / 23 / 26 / 29 / 32 HEALTH
  • W: 25 / 35 / 45 / 55 / 65 HEALTH
  • E: 24 / 36 / 48 / 60 / 72 HEALTH
Malicious Metal2 votes

He has flat ones.

DragonShea1 votes

{quoted}

Quick question, does Morde have flat or % health costs?

Flat

crippler381 votes

flatter than jinx

Over Innsmouth19 votes

Manaless champs should feel like their builds are difficult or inefficient. They get an easy early game

Vladimir Mordekaiser Shen DrMundo Akali Aatrox

wat.

The Yetii Rider6 votes

Manaless AP champs, sorry. Before her rework Akali's top lane was safe against the right matchups. Vlad has the tools to farm safely and sustain, it takes skill to do though. Kennen has a very easy early game. Mordekaiser needs another rework.

MrStealYoGanks1 votes

I don't think Morde needs a rework as much as they should just bring back old Morde.

Mordepool1 votes

{quoted}

I don't think Morde needs a rework as much as they should just bring back old Morde.

He's Dead and Truly Gone the itemization isn't there and Spell vamp doesn't exist

MrStealYoGanks1 votes

Simple fix to the Spell vamp issue would be putting it into his kit. Old Morde in general was way better than new Morde, I feel like new Morde is going to be ignored as much as the old Yorick was until they go back over and either do another rework or revert changes like they did with Kog.

Erdamon4 votes

"Manaless champs should feel like their builds are difficult or inefficient. They get an easy early game, they should pay for it with a bad late game." "Manaless champs should feel like their builds are difficult or inefficient. They get an easy early game" "should feel like their builds are difficult or inefficient. They get an easy early game" "They get an easy early game" "easy early game"

Akali Vladimir Katarina Mordekaiser Rumble

What's your point again?

TheOnlyJoe5 votes

Katarina actually has a really nice laning phase now The others not so much

Erdamon4 votes

Even then, new Kat's laning phase still isn't all that great as she's rather vulnerable to getting shoved or just poked to hell like before, and in general manaless AP champions have crap early game, and it's even more ridiculous when Morde's core item (and essentially the only item worth buying for him before any other) is getting gutted just because Syndra who already has a ton of build options and orders just so happened to abuse it and yet boards are somehow okay with it "because manaless champs are cancur".

YumaS2Astral1 votes

{quoted}

Even then, new Kat's laning phase still isn't all that great as she's rather vulnerable to getting shoved or just poked to hell like before, and in general manaless AP champions have crap early game, and it's even more ridiculous when Morde's core item (and essentially the only item worth buying for him before any other) is getting gutted just because Syndra who already has a ton of build options and orders just so happened to abuse it and yet boards are somehow okay with it "because manaless champs are cancur".

Yes, but to poke Kat now you either need to auto or to use targeted abilities, hitting skillshots on Kat is out of question now with her new Shunpo

Mordepool1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sEyY9VUs,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-11-24T14:28:40.473+0000)

The item being cheaper and easier to rush is good, because its passive isn't there until you complete the item. Then you have an easier time farming/getting kills so you get more gold to build a big ticket Health item like Rod of Ages.

"But muh manaless champs"

Manaless champs should feel like their builds are difficult or inefficient. They get an easy early game, they should pay for it with a bad late game.

Pissoff

Leetri3 votes

Rylai's is absolutely core on Viktor, he was reworked with that item in mind as a first or 2nd item. Before the Mage Update it was just a nice item to have, but the massively increased delays on his kit really pushed him towards it. You really wanted HP as well, since you need to be all up in their business to use Q and your ult properly. Unless the item becomes legit trash so no one would ever buy it, Viktor will continue buying it for the slow.

Over Innsmouth4 votes

The difference between Viktor and say, Mordekaiser, Vladimir, and Karthus, is that Viktor can very easily 100-0 someone with his obscene burst, so his slightly-lower-than-average-mage-range isnt really an issue. He also has his big Gravity Field for making someone sit still and take his E Augment, which is more cc than Vladimir, Karthus, and Mordekaiser have put together.

Granted, I agree that the delays added to his kit are a bit much. Then again, they were done by RicklessAbandon and I'm generally against anything he does.

Perhaps Rylais is core, and with the 40% slow gone it won't be so much of an issue. I look forward to seeing the Machine Herald in a game without getting angry.

crippler381 votes

you know putting morde in there is basically adding zero to the other two who have a grand spanking total of 3 sources of cc

Asayake 5150glow2 votes

How does Aurelion lack innate hard CC? He has an AoE stun and a knock back if you're close enough.

He does lack range I guess.

Over Innsmouth8 votes

Genuinely forgot about that. My mind was on Vlad and Mordekaiser. I always considered that he was balanced and designed with Rylais being built on him every game, so that he can have an easier time applying Center of the Universe, so that's why I put him on there.

TyrekGoldenspear3 votes

item 3116 Certainly makes it easier for Sol to apply Center of the Universe, but it definitely will work with the nerfed slow just fine.

CurlyCrusader1 votes

I play a lot of Aurelion. The slow isn't really that important anymore, since he builds GLP now instead of ROA. I normally build Rylai's 3rd item.

CurlyCrusader1 votes

Although I'm pissed off that they have done nothing but nerf Aurelion Sol since his release.

CurlyCrusader1 votes

His stun has a minimum range and so does his knockback. As a Sol player, if somebody gets inside your circle and your ult isn't up, your best bet was to retract your stars and hope the slow proc would be enough to get yourself back yo the desired range.

TyrekGoldenspear2 votes

How is it a slot waste if it provides utility?

The slow will always be useful while AP and HP can be mitigated by MR and Burst respectively.

NineTailedMystic2 votes

Slot inefficiency. Meaning the gold we put into it isn't efficient like what they did to Zhonya's and you'll only buy Rylai's for the passive now (Or if your champis reliant on it). While I think it's a good change, APs have been continually losing big AP items like DFG in 5.2, items overall in Preseason 6, more items overall in the Mage Update, and now Rylai's stats got dumpstered.

Everyone will now go to Luden's which is worse than Rylai's on Live right now since it got nerfed some time back too.

TyrekGoldenspear2 votes

Well to be fair, a lot of people are feeling the mages' overall burst has increased.

Assassins can't do their jobs if we murder them the second they come into view. :P

NineTailedMystic1 votes

Yes, but some champions need that AP, like Burst Mages. Like the more utility and DPS focused champions can live with the AP loss because they do too much damage is as (Looking at you Ori, Cass).

I had wondered why Ahri had been struggling in the damage department recently, and I now realize its due to the loss of AP overall over the course of the past year or two.

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

Fair. I play burst mages myself and agree.

Perhaps we should bump up burst mages scaling so we can benefit more from what AP we can scrounge up while the DOT mages don't become overwhelming with the increase in damage that buffing AP items would do.

MunchCrunchLunch2 votes

the thing about brand. is that he doesn't need a lot of ap to do damage. because of his passive. he just needs mpen. and new rylais might be a buff for him becasue he can get it faster especially if hes a supprot.

Vald Drakul2 votes

The way I've always viewed Rylais is as a item meant for low mobility ap champs who couldn't burst you out of existence, and thus had to live through whatever fight you put up and needed to keep you around long enough to finish the job. I'm all for a change to the scepter since every mage I come up against builds it, but it shouldn't be nerfed. If there was a way to make it appealing only to its target audience, like what they did with ghostblade.

WAZZZUP5001 votes

I think it would be somewhat simple. If riot made the slow more for melee champs (40%), same as before, so ap toplaners(like mord, rumble)could benefit more from it, while brand and Sunday don't have an op weapon at their disposal.

WalkingInACircle1 votes

I think its just crap. Gonna build item 3285

Over Innsmouth4 votes

Really considering it.

laffecaffelottt1 votes

Have you heard of this champTaliyah ? This will hit her like a truck, she already has a very steep win rate drop over gametime, this might help in the first 15-20mins but then rip. To clarify, as most of you probobly don't know, Talis q was not considered as a dot or multiple projectile spell, as such it would get the single target slow of 40% which now will be 20% instead.

Baron Perenolde1 votes

I don't get why Rylai's isn't core on Brand. Even before it got changed, it was a great midgame buy for our resident immobile pyromaniac. It helped him land combos easier and synced well with Liandry's (I used to like sorcerer shoes + haunting guise as my first two buys on Brand).

Terchio1 votes

I'm 50-50 on this. It sucks that it is a niche item that nobody wants lategame now, and forces those who need it into a subpar endgame build. However, assuming the power spike is relatively minimal, this might be a way to bring these champions into being useful at 2600g instead of 3200, a good chunk earlier, and maybe working toward something else that makes these champions feel unique quicker, something like item 3116 item 3285 for a chaser, item 3116 item 3027 / item 3065 for a tank, and item 3116 item 3151 for an influence/DPS build.

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