Actions for Cassiopeia post 4.21?

5G8Nri0B54·Jan 6, 2015·8 votes·796 views

It's been quite a while since 4.21, all the feedback upon 4.21's release, an entire holiday and even a free week of her. So I suspect you have plenty of data already right?

Everyone knows she isn't trash like she was pre-4.21. But everyone also knew that balance wasn't her real problem. That could easily be fixed with enough number twerking. The core issue is her fundamental design.

There has been dozens of threads made during the break, but I'll TL;DR it

DETAILS

TL;DR -

You need to do something to Cassiopeia so that she isn't the League's AP Rambo

Q and W SHOULD NOT REQUIRE HER E TO DO HIGH DAMAGE!!!!!!!!!!!

Building up on the previous point, she still have exclusively a single range and pattern, and that is of a short-ranged ranged all-in mano-a-mano style

Q's Cooldown being so much higher than the Poison's duration feels HORRIBLE

Cursor detection of poisoned vs. un-poisoned unit can be a real bitch in a messy fight

Her Passive fails in both Thematic Consistency AND Gameplay

Smooth out her power-curve so that she is just like pre-rework Cassiopeia please

Building upon THAT note, Cassiopeia is unplayable in ARAM, Dom, and TT

"throw away the entire rework and revert her to old Cass!"

her ability to maintain mana only works while farming, but in a teamfight, just killing a frontliner can wear you out

ALL poison indicators (not just Cass) should be a little more clearer than just a tiny purple puff

So far the only people who are satisfied with her rework are those who don't even care what the champion is, as long as she is viable/borderline OP. Or to put it another way, people who would have been satisfied with a blue rectangle firing off red rectangles as thematics and gameplay doesn't matter as long as they can win with their choice of champion. This has always been the case from the beginning of the rework and has been what I've gotten out from the design of Cassiopeia's initial rework.

To be perfectly honest, I'm beginning to wonder why you didn't just create two separate champions instead...

18 Comments

SmokingPuffinJan 6, 20153 votes

1. You need to do something to Cassiopeia so that she isn't the League's AP Rambo 2. Q and W SHOULD NOT REQUIRE HER E TO DO HIGH DAMAGE!!!!!!!!!!! 3. Building up on the previous point, she still have exclusively a single range and pattern, and that is of a short-ranged ranged all-in mano-a-mano style 10. her ability to maintain mana only works while farming, but in a teamfight, just killing a frontliner can wear you out

I have significant concern that fixing these results in many new problems.

For example, if we just roll E's damage amp effect into Q and W, we need to take power out of the kit somewhere. How do we do that without making something else feel bad?

7. Smooth out her power-curve so that she is just like pre-rework Cassiopeia please

Old Cass was amazing in lane and useless in teamfights. Do not want that power curve.

I can be convinced that the new, breakpoint-based power curve isn't the right choice either, though.

9. Building upon THAT note, Cassiopeia is unplayable in ARAM, Dom, and TT

Needs something like Thresh Dominion fix. Probably low priority until we get Cass rework to a good place on the rift.

5. Cursor detection of poisoned vs. un-poisoned unit can be a real bitch in a messy fight 11. ALL poison indicators (not just Cass) should be a little more clearer than just a tiny purple puff

Good opportunities for clarity improvement here.

5G8Nri0B54Jan 6, 20153 votes

Old Cass was amazing in lane and useless in teamfights. Do not want that power curve.

I can be convinced that the new, breakpoint-based power curve isn't the right choice either, though.

Not entirely. She definitely fell off if only because, her optimal case involves using both her AoE damage and E-spam, yet her kit really doesn't facilitate her need to be up close and E-spam, hence her falling off (now that I think about it...her new kit isn't much better other than jacking her E up, but whatever).

One thing to remember is that, with her pre-rework state actually having decent AoE damage, she will never fall off to "useless" level. In fact, her damage will always be significant due to it's scaling and how many targets she can hit at once. You're right that she definitely fell off, but it's in a similar way that most AP mids with zero mobility and sufficient self-peel falls off. Cassiopeia's may be a bit worse if only because of the nature of her E.

I have significant concern that fixing these results in many new problems.

For example, if we just roll E's damage amp effect into Q and W, we need to take power out of the kit somewhere. How do we do that without making something else feel bad?

This is why I believe Cassiopeia's issues are based upon her fundamental designs. However, just remember that in her current state, Stashu felt it was a good idea to literally strip the power and satisfaction of 3/4 of her abilities just to overload her E. To remove power from her E and funnel it back to the rest of her kit is less an attempt of making her E less rewarding and more balancing her out.

But in a way, you're right too. It could make other aspects, very obviously her E, less satisfying than it already is. But again, the problem is her fundamental design.

Of course, the current course is that her janky E feels nice (once she gets all her stacks and gets to full-build or something), but the rest of her kit feels like shit. And with old Cassiopeia, at the very least her Q and W was satisfying, while E did it's job of scarier the shit out of anyone from coming close to her.

SmokingPuffinJan 6, 20151 votes

Not entirely. She definitely fell off if only because, her optimal case involves using both her AoE damage and E-spam, yet her kit really doesn't facilitate her need to be up close and E-spam, hence her falling off (now that I think about it...her new kit isn't much better other than jacking her E up, but whatever).

Her new kit attempts to make her good in late game teamfights by offering world-shattering amounts of damage. It...kind of works? Certainly if you land the money ult into E spam, it feels really good.

One thing to remember is that, with her pre-rework state actually having decent AoE damage, she will never fall off to "useless" level. In fact, her damage will always be significant due to it's scaling and how many targets she can hit at once. You're right that she definitely fell off, but it's in a similar way that most AP mids with zero mobility and sufficient self-peel falls off. Cassiopeia's may be a bit worse if only because of the nature of her E.

I agree with the bolded; life as an immobile mage is generally not good in the late game. I think it's a bigger problem on Old Cass because hanging back and landing a few Qs and staying safe just wasn't impactful enough, especially now that teamfights are generally faster paced than they used to be. With New Cass, you still have the same risk of deadness, but you at least get obnoxious amounts of damage for taking the risk.

But in a way, you're right too. It could make other aspects, very obviously her E, less satisfying than it already is. But again, the problem is her fundamental design.

E has some room to be less satisfying. I don't think it has enough room to be able to absorb enough reduction for Q and W to feel good though.

And yes, this feels like a tricky design problem to solve.

Of course, the current course is that her janky E feels nice (once she gets all her stacks and gets to full-build or something), but the rest of her kit feels like shit. And with old Cassiopeia, at the very least her Q and W was satisfying, while E did it's job of scarier the shit out of anyone from coming close to her.

I can empathize with the feel concern here. My initial reaction to New Cass's kit was "whoa, that Q ratio".

5G8Nri0B54Jan 6, 20152 votes

I should point out that, her Q before was powerful, but her Miasma did a significant amount of damage too. Not just her Q, but her Miasma took a hefty hit with the rework, getting a third of it's scaling taken out and it's base more than halved...and it's cooldown increased. Her Q and W actually does a substantial amount of DPS in the teamfight.

Of course, focusing so much on sustained damage and having little to no burst results in a lot of kills being taken by her allies instead. But if you checked out the damage she inflicts, it's actually enormous since not only is it AoE, it's constantly being proc'd. That was what was so enjoyable about old Cassiopeia. Not that we never used her E at all, it was handy for if, say...Jarvan jumps atop her.

To be perfectly honest, I was actually quite okay with how defenceless she could potentially be if someone jumps atop her because it fits her archetype so well. I only wish Riot used their "emphasize what felt good and emphasize weakness" philosophy on Cass too by making her even more defenceless, but in return made her AoE poison sieging ability even more powerful. As a reminder, just because her rework overloaded her E, doesn't mean her E was in anyway weak pre-rework. Her E was a huge culprit in making her an uninteractive lane-bully because it's raw power made it impossible to get close to her before. All Stashu achieved was artificially delay her E's overwhelming power to a point in the game where she is less able to use it as safely...in the most unnecessarily convoluted way possible.

With New Cass, you still have the same risk of deadness, but you at least get obnoxious amounts of damage for taking the risk.

Yeah this is pretty obvious what Stashu is trying to do. Stashu wanted Cassiopeia to be a "raw power DESTROY!" type of champion...I'm certain you've seen my walls of rants on why this doesn't suit Cassiopeia.

This raw power and pure damage philosophy sounds more like Brand's domain (see what I did there Stashu?) than a decadent rich girl who is half snake. This kind of champion should be weakest the closer an opponent is to her, the rework is the other way around that makes her want to go balls deep into the opponent.

I don't mind a very high damage Cassiopeia, but it should be one that inflicts it in more subtle means rather than *"LOL I JUST SKULL-***ED YOU FOR 500 DAMAGE WITH JUST A SINGLE E HERE COMES ANOTHER ONE!"

Either way, I make this thread for one reason. To remind Stashu. I'm not about to let what happened to Olaf and Yorick and their "soon(tm)" fixes happen to Cassiopeia.

The most disheartening thing about Cassiopeia atm is how people are only warming up to Cassiopeia's rework solely because

a) some guy used her in streams and pointed out how totally powerful she is now

and

b) because Stashu jacked up her numbers

When I compare that to Azir and Sion, who upon their release, were either unplayably buggy or undertuned, and I still had fun playing them because they felt like themselves. THAT is good design...even if I still hate how little hp Sion actually has in reality.

And to drive the point home, now Azir is downright OP...and these same people are flocking to him.

SmokingPuffinJan 6, 20151 votes

I should point out that, her Q before was powerful, but her Miasma did a significant amount of damage too. Not just her Q, but her Miasma took a hefty hit with the rework, getting a third of it's scaling taken out and it's base more than halved...and it's cooldown increased. Her Q and W actually does a substantial amount of DPS in the teamfight.

Agree. The reason why I focused on Q is that I played Old Cass with Q max build. Playstyle changed lots for me.

Of course, focusing so much on sustained damage and having little to no burst results in a lot of kills being taken by her allies instead. But if you checked out the damage she inflicts, it's actually enormous since not only is it AoE, it's constantly being proc'd.

This is a general design philosophy thing with Riot. If it's powerful, but it doesn't feel powerful, that's bad design. I'm sure that's why they decided to push power out of W, and more generally why they preferred a less DoT-oriented design.

Personally, I think DoTs are plenty readable if you enhance the UI; it can work similarly to how shields are displayed.

This raw power and pure damage philosophy sounds more like Brand's domain (see what I did there Stashu?) than a decadent rich girl who is half snake. This kind of champion should be weakest the closer an opponent is to her, the rework is the other way around that makes her want to go balls deep into the opponent.

I don't mind a very high damage Cassiopeia, but it should be one that inflicts it in more indirect means rather than *"LOL I JUST SKULL-***ED YOU FOR 500 DAMAGE WITH JUST A SINGLE E HERE COMES ANOTHER ONE!"

Mechanically, I think Cass needs to be a seriously brute force damage champion because she's really unsafe and doesn't have much utility. That damage doesn't necessarily have to be E spam, but she has to be extremely scary as a damage source.

I don't know that Cassiopeia can be a super long range champion because she will always need a significant amount of power budget in E for zoning purposes.

Either way, I make this thread for one reason. To remind Stashu. I'm not about to let what happened to Olaf and Yorick and their "soon(tm)" fixes happen to Cassiopeia.

I'm still sad for Brolaf. My most played jungler for a long time.

Yorick I think we see a rework this year. Whether that makes us happy is an open question.

The most disheartening thing about Cassiopeia atm is how people are only warming up to Cassiopeia's rework solely because

a) some guy used her in streams and pointed out how totally powerful she is now

and

b) because Stashu jacked up her numbers

League community is mostly Spikes, so not much surprise.

5G8Nri0B54Jan 6, 20151 votes

{quoted} This is a general design philosophy thing with Riot. If it's powerful, but it doesn't feel powerful, that's bad design. I'm sure that's why they decided to push power out of W, and more generally why they preferred a less DoT-oriented design.

Personally, I think DoTs are plenty readable if you enhance the UI; it can work similarly to how shields are displayed.

Yeah this is one thing I have a bone to pick with their champion design. Not just Cassiopeia, but Draven's old Passive too. I'm still sour that they so lazily hashed up a gold Passive for Draven that was so last minute, that they didn't even bother to give it a proper icon. I can accept that he dealt too much damage before, but saying it was impossible to tune his old Passive because people wouldn't be able to appreciate it otherwise was all kinds of bs.

Also, it's more than obvious that the real problem is that poison is only represented by a tiny purple cloud, something Riot should have rectified before this rework came to past.

Mechanically, I think Cass needs to be a seriously brute force damage champion because she's really unsafe and doesn't have much utility. That damage doesn't necessarily have to be E spam, but she has to be extremely scary as a damage source.

I don't know that Cassiopeia can be a super long range champion because she will always need a significant amount of power budget in E for zoning purposes.

There are several MUCH more appropriate ways to go about this goal than what Stashu's been doing. For instance, how many champions have we had atm who is defined by offensive utility? There's Urgot ...and that's it. Cassiopeia could have totally been that type of champion, and be able to unleash her damage not through brute force in more indirect means, after having debilitated them enough for her to tear apart.

Remember, one of my biggest gripes about her Passive is that it takes the act of poisoning opponent, and rather than debilitating the opponent, is making Cassiopeia more brutish. (hmmm...maybe I should make another thread on that to go into more details...)

But overall, as you no doubt realize, the main problem is more ingrained than simply her numbers. You're not wrong that in her current state, the only way she can really function is to have lots of brute power. But this is why I keep asking for more of an overhaul rather than simple number tweaks Stashu's been doing.

If it were up to me, Cassiopeia as a Poison mage should be someone you want to jump on top of rather than one you want to stay the hell away from. That was an issue I thought Riot could have smartly dealt with rather than do the polar opposite. Her E then could be some sort of self-defence mechanism that is most effective when up close like it currently is, but instead of massive damage it should provide something else to help her stay alive as she slinks back to safety.

League community is mostly Spikes, so not much surprise.

Yeah I'm painfully aware of that. I fear that Stashu might also be a Spike himself. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it looks like Stashu is literally alone with this rework, with no one else to give their own thoughts on her rework, which is the likely root of the problem.

SmokingPuffinJan 6, 20151 votes

Yeah this is one thing I have a bone to pick with their champion design. Not just Cassiopeia, but Draven's old Passive too. I'm still sour that they so lazily hashed up a gold Passive for Draven that was so last minute, that they didn't even bother to give it a proper icon. I can accept that he dealt too much damage before, but saying it was impossible to tune his old Passive because people wouldn't be able to appreciate it otherwise was all kinds of bs.

The basic story there is that Draven was OP and changing the passive to something flashy but honestly not very powerful was a way to make fewer people angry than just wrecking his base stats or early Q damage. Obviously the bleed passive is a trivially calculable amount of damage, and subtracting that amount of damage from the rest of his kit would have worked mechanically.

Also, it's more than obvious that the real problem is that poison is only represented by a tiny purple cloud, something Riot should have rectified before this rework came to past.

Poison readability is a thing. Possibly worth a separate thread. Would really like to color the part of the HP bar that will be lost to the DoT in red. Seems to rectify all known complaints about DoT readability, and it doesn't require any new UI real estate.

You're not wrong that in her current state, the only way she can really function is to have lots of brute power. But this is why I keep asking for more of an overhaul rather than simple number tweaks Stashu's been doing.

Riot got burned so badly on the Karma rework that they have been trying super hard to make kits stay as similar as possible in subsequent ones. They couldn't do that with Sion because seriously, that kit. I think it's pretty clear this insistence on similar buttons is what doomed Olaf's rework.

I believe Riot is coming around on this topic, and you will see Poppy and Yorick relaunched with brand new kits less a button or two this year.

I am encouraged that Riot is sticking to the rework projects with Skarner and now Cassiopeia, rather than just calling it done when it clearly isn't with Olaf and Rengar.

If it were up to me, Cassiopeia as a Poison mage should be someone you want to jump on top of rather than one you want to stay the hell away from. That was an issue I thought Riot could have smartly dealt with rather than do the polar opposite. Her E then could be some sort of self-defence mechanism that is most effective when up close like it currently is, but instead of massive damage it should provide something else to help her stay alive as she slinks back to safety.

Sounds interesting. Lots of risk of alienating existing Cass players though. That has always been the core problem with Cass rework -- there's two playstyles in the champion and both are pretty popular within her fanbase.

Yeah I'm painfully aware of that. I fear that Stashu might also be a Spike himself. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it looks like Stashu is literally alone with this rework, with no one else to give their own thoughts on her rework, which is the likely root of the problem.

Knowing what I know about Riot's work culture, there's a no percent chance this is how things actually worked. Riot pushes multiple daily internal builds of the game for testing, feedback, and fun. In general, Riot is a ridiculously collaborative company. Their champion designers are constantly talking with each other, and with the systems guys, and the programmers, and the itemization guys.

5G8Nri0B54Jan 6, 20151 votes

Poison readability is a thing. Possibly worth a separate thread. Would really like to color the part of the HP bar that will be lost to the DoT in red. Seems to rectify all known complaints about DoT readability, and it doesn't require any new UI real estate.

I suggested this before, got like zero traction. Atleast it's something that Riot finally acknowledged even if they haven't done anything with it yet. Wish they'd have noticed it BEFORE the rework.

Riot got burned so badly on the Karma rework that they have been trying super hard to make kits stay as similar as possible in subsequent ones. They couldn't do that with Sion because seriously, that kit. I think it's pretty clear this insistence on similar buttons is what doomed Olaf's rework.

Believe it or not I feel that Stashu managed to change too much while changing too little at the same time. On one hand he basically deleted half of her playerbase. On the other hand all he really did was rearrange her numbers and gave her a pair of shackles instead of a Passive.

Perhaps if he changed how her Q/W/E fundamentally worked it could have turned out better. But in changing Cassiopeia as much as he did, he was also trying WAY too hard at preserving old elements of Cassiopeia too.

For instance, her Q is garbage now. He took numbers away from her Q to give it to her E. But rather than changing it into something else he simply compensated by slightly buffing it's MS buff. He kept her Q the way it was when it was satisfying when it dealt damage (and had a Poison duration that wasn't shorter than it's cooldown!!).

TL;DR - Riot didn't go the mile, he changed too much without changing enough.

Sounds interesting. Lots of risk of alienating existing Cass players though. That has always been the core problem with Cass rework -- there's two playstyles in the champion and both are pretty popular within her fanbase.

I agree. It will definitely piss off a decent chunk of her current fanbase just like how it alienated the group who liked her as a Poison Mage. This is the problem when you have a champion whose kit and gameplay contradicts with their identity. I am well aware of my obvious biases here. But I still objectively believe that a champion should be thematically consistently.

However, I want to ask you this one question.

Regardless of path you choose, one side gets pissed off. However, one direction is thematically consistent and the other one contradicts the champion's identity.

Which is preferrable then? Thematically consistent but piss off the spikes? Or piss off Timmies and Johnnies while leaving Cassiopeia as a thematically inconsistent mess?

As I said multiple times before,** I am okay with the concept of AP Rambo**. But only if it's on a champion that it is appropriate on. If Cassiopeia can be what she is supposed to be, I would totally support a new champion Riot makes that would adopt the AP Rambo-play style the Spike-playerbase has embraced, because with THAT champion, Riot will design him/her with "AP Rambo"-style in mind. It'll be someone brutish and in-your-face.

SmokingPuffinJan 6, 20151 votes

I am well aware of my obvious biases here. But I still objectively believe that a champion should be thematically consistently.

I agree with both these points. You're biased (as am I, as are we all) and thematic consistency is highly desirable.

We should maybe talk a bit more about the definition of thematic consistency, though. From where I sit, Old Cass was a mess thematically and New Cass is considerably more clear in this regard.

However, I want to ask you this one question.

Regardless of path you choose, one side gets pissed off. However, one direction is thematically consistent and the other one contradicts the champion's identity.

Which is preferrable then? Thematically consistent but piss off the spikes? Or piss off Timmies and Johnnies while leaving Cassiopeia as a thematically inconsistent mess?

I think keeping the Spikes happy is more important than keeping the Timmies or Johnnies happy. The League community is full of Spikes.

I don't think you have to piss off the Spikes. They just want a competitively viable champion. Lots of ways to skin that cat, including a focus on DoTs.

Although it's an imperfect analogy, I think the fight here is actually between two Timmy factions -- is it cooler to be a snake mage that bites things, or a snake mage that poisons things?

5G8Nri0B54Jan 6, 20151 votes

We should maybe talk a bit more about the definition of thematic consistency, though. From where I sit, Old Cass was a mess thematically and New Cass is considerably more clear in this regard.

For me, Thematically Consistent is when a champion's gameplay reflects their image. Take for instance, how Nautilus does like no damage despite being a metal giant holding a frikkin huge anchor. That is thematically inconsistent. My belief is that this makes perfect sense in a discussion of pure balance, but should be made into something where his hits feels as powerful as it looks...while also remaining balanced.

Therefore....

Old Cass was a mess thematically and New Cass is considerably more clear in this regard.

I disagree with your assessment that New Cass is more clear because I hold what is likely a different definition of Thematic Consistency.

The new Cassiopeia is too brutish, too much of an AP Rambo. In my opinion, that contradicts her image of the seductive-"gets others to do work for her"-back stabbing-Noxian-rich-bitch-Poison Mage who also happens to be part SNAKE to top it all off.

HOWEVER...I agree that Old Cass was a bit of a mess. Even pre-rework I had issues with her E's raw power and directness. I tolerated it because her Q and W felt so RIGHT. Her Q and W's style felt thematically consistent, and it over-shadowed her E's inconsistencies just enough for me to tolerate. In the end, she ended up with two playerbases that co-existed apathetically.

And wth is up with her randomly having Medusa's signature ability? I only tolerate it's existence because it's hard enough to fight to preserve her identity as a Poison Mage already.

I think keeping the Spikes happy is more important than keeping the Timmies or Johnnies happy. The League community is full of Spikes.

I don't think you have to piss off the Spikes. They just want a competitively viable champion. Lots of ways to skin that cat, including a focus on DoTs.

Agreed. As I've said a hundred times in past threads, almost anything can be made "viable", and Stashu is doing just that right now with each patch. Giving her bigger numbers. But Stashu needs help from someone who understands the other inclinations.

Although it's an imperfect analogy, I think the fight here is actually between two Timmy factions -- is it cooler to be a snake mage that bites things, or a snake mage that poisons things?

You know. Snake Man is easily my favourite Robot Master in the Mega Man franchise. So you know I am telling the truth when I say...I am TOTALLY open to a Snake Mage concept and would support it without hesitation.

But I disagree with the idea of Cassiopeia being Snake Mage. I feel she is more Poison Mage than Snake Mage. Asides from the fact that Riot is literally reducing her snake-factor with each VU (the latest one she got wasn't her first), there's the issue that her overall kit doesn't do a great job at playing it up.

Summoning snakes to constrict her opponent. Actually biting her opponent rather than chucking GIGANTIC TORSO-SIZED FANGS at opponent at a machine gun pace. Some sort of assassin-like mobility or stealth mechanism. Poisoning her opponents to death. Among all those qualities, she only possesses the potential for the last, which is to poison her opponents to death.** She's also the only MAGE in the entire game where Poison has any factor at all**, so in a way, I see her as a Poison Mage by way of tokenism. Sort of like how Black Lightning is "the black guy" of the Super Friends and how that's all that dominates his character.

With that said, this discussion has made me pay more attention to one thing, and it's make-up of her kit.

Q - Poison W - Poison E - ....AK-47... R - wait so she's supposed to be based off Medusa now?

So yeah she was a mess pre-rework. But post-rework didn't fix that at all did it?

SmokingPuffinJan 6, 20151 votes

Take for instance, how does like no damage despite being a metal giant holding a frikkin huge anchor. That is thematically inconsistent.

This is pretty illustrative of the differences in our viewpoints. For me, thematic consistency is about how well the kit embodies the selected theme. So, for me, Nautilus is a disruption tank, and his kit is generally quite good at executing that theme.

I see your focus as being about whether the theme of the kit is a good fit for the character. I think this is also important, and certainly things feel funny when character and theme are not well connected; that's basically the reason nobody likes Swain even though he's a reasonably strong champion with a consistent kit.

I disagree with your assessment that New Cass is more clear because I hold what is likely a different definition of Thematic Consistency.

The new Cassiopeia is too brutish, too much of an AP Rambo.

For me, Old Cass is thematically inconsistent, whichever way you go, because half the kit is fighting against you whichever theme you pick. New Cass gets partial credit from me because it establishes that the theme is snakebites, and QW are mechanics that enable the biting. This still doesn't feel fluffy, and that's where your (valid) complaints come from, but now the kit now has a focus.

To illustrate, other examples of thematic consistency or inconsistency for me:

Very confused about Alistar E. Why does a dive tank have an AoE heal?
Quinn's theme is supposed to be interaction with Valor, but there's not much substance to that in the kit mechanics. Also, her ult makes no sense on a marksman.

Jinx is extremely well done, with a gun for every problem.
Janna is a very clean execution of a peel support.

In my opinion, that contradicts her image of the seductive-"gets others to do work for her"-back stabbing-Noxian-rich-bitch-Poison Mage who also happens to be part SNAKE to top it all off. ... HOWEVER...I don't disagree that Old Cass was a bit of a mess. Even pre-rework I had issues with her E's raw power and directness. I tolerated it because her Q and W felt so RIGHT.

I don't really understand how these are connected. How does Cass QW get the (list of qualities) to feel right for you?

And wth is up with her randomly having Medusa's signature ability? I only tolerate it's existence because it's hard enough to fight to preserve her identity as a Poison Mage already.

Western mythology basically has only one snake lady. I feel like it'd be weird to have a snake lady champion without having it.

Summoning snakes to constrict her opponent. Actually biting her opponent rather than chucking GIGANTIC TORSO-SIZED FANGS at opponent at a machine gun pace. Some sort of assassin-like mobility or stealth mechanism. Poisoning her opponents to death. Among all those qualities, she only possesses the potential for the last, which is to poison her opponents to death.** She's also the only MAGE in the entire game where Poison has any factor at all**, so in a way, I see her as a Poison Mage by way of tokenism. Sort of like how Black Lightning is "the black guy" of the Super Friends and how that's all that dominates his character.

You know, this is a pretty good statement of "you know, I really have no clue what this character's theme is supposed to be" =D

5G8Nri0B54Jan 6, 20151 votes

Alright then, what would you name the problem I described for Cassiopeia then? If you hold a different definition of thematic consistency, my continued usage will only cause confusion with those who share your definition.

that's basically the reason nobody likes Swain even though he's a reasonably strong champion with a consistent kit.

For my part I play him because...well...he's fucking strong/borderline OP and benefits from the Malzahar-advantage. Back when Jayce was FOTM my winrate's been sky-rocketing thanks to people counter-picking themselves into my Swain. I'm glad his existence is ignored.

As for thematic consistency, I'll agree that his title has literally zero relation to what he is and I even made a thread a while back in old GD requesting a title change. Didn't catch on :/

I don't really understand how these are connected.

The first bit is me explaining why her current E-spam hyper-carry status contradicts her identity of all that stuff I used to describe her.

The second bit is my agreement that Old Cass had her issues under my own definition of thematic consistency as well...but atleast it wasn't nearly as bad as the current Cass thanks to QW.

How does Cass QW get the (list of qualities) to feel right for you?

I'm not 100% sure what this line is getting at and I suspect there might be a typo there. Is your question supposed to be "How does QW feel right for you"? Mind reiterating what you meant here?

Western mythology basically has only one snake lady. I feel like it'd be weird to have a snake lady champion without having it.

I had a feeling that was the case, but it doesn't change the fact that thematically, it feels kinda tacked on. I mean, gameplay wise, it works. It's her sole form of effective self-peel even if it has issues.

You know, this is a pretty good statement of "you know, I really have no clue what this character's theme is supposed to be" =D

She's a mess, I never denied that. Even Old Cass was a mess. This is an issue with champions in her era and earlier. Look at Nunu's random-ass kit or Sion with his homing-eye-laser beams.

I believe her identity is "Poison Mage" because of her lines alluding to poison, her personality being very close to those who would use poison to achieve one's means, and, well...she's part snake. Along with immortality and self-fellation, poison is a very common association with snakes.

(and don't give me that "snakes use venom"-semantics, because I'll out-semantic you no matter how hard you try)

SmokingPuffinJan 6, 20151 votes

Alright then, what would you name the problem I described for Cassiopeia then? If you hold a different definition of thematic consistency, my continued usage will only cause confusion with those who share your definition.

The core question is "does the kit fit the character?", but I'm having a hard time making that into a term that others would immediately recognize. I'm going to go with "character fit", but I don't think it's a home run.

Probably the best example of good character fit is Diana. Her kit feels like how Diana the character would fight -- she's nihilistic, cold, and utterly prepared to die in a blaze of glory fighting for her ideals. On the other hand, her thematic consistency is not so good; the QRR part of the kit wants to be a bursty assassin while the other stuff wants to be a sustained damage fighter. She's a good candidate for rework as a result.

I'm not 100% sure what this line is getting at and I suspect there might be a typo there. Is your question supposed to be "How does QW feel right for you"? Mind reiterating what you meant here?

Right, I was pretty unclear. I was trying to ask why you feel the QW buttons are consistent with her characterization. Why do they work for her "seductive-"gets others to do work for her"-back stabbing-Noxian-rich-bitch" persona for you?

To me, that persona sounds like it wants to have charm, burst, and execute mechanics. Maybe even stealth. Not so much with the sustained damage over time thing. Obvious bias is obvious.

5G8Nri0B54Jan 6, 20151 votes

Probably the best example of good character fit is Diana.

I thought she was intended to be an Assassin-Bruiser Hybrid. She had a deadly looking reaping weapon...while wearing a full set of armour. And well, they released her to be TANKIER THAN RENEKTON while bursting like an assassin. Obviously she had to be nerfed...I will comment in my disappointment that her weapon is just for show, as none of her kit really reflects how cool her weapon is. And her QRR combo is just really...stale.

why you feel the QW buttons are consistent with her characterization. Why do they work for her "seductive-"gets others to do work for her"-back stabbing-Noxian-rich-bitch" persona for you?

Simply put, it's a very powerful yet forceless method of attack that is often frowned upon by the "good guys". And this is often the method of choice by characters like Cassiopeia. It's usage is often associated with cowardice due to it's indirect nature and how it doesn't require any brawn to effectively use. Q and W, while it's high damage is a little too direct, does it slowly after a period of time, it doesn't grant any immediate impact like a typical nuke does, making Cassiopeia's actions upon using it appear very blase. More importantly, her poison inflicts devastation upon a mass of enemies.

Often times the archetype of the "Seductive Back-Stabbing Noblewoman" is directly linked to such a style. One quality could be removed, although Seductive personality is often retained as it provides a double meaning for such a character. In fact,** the most famous and earliest depiction of someone using poison to assassinate another was Semiramis**. And it was from her that the caricature of the refined seductress who means to poison the hearts of men and do untold damage to entire civilizations originated from. To take another example, look at Poison Ivy. The intent of her pheromone isn't just to poison the enemies, but also a metaphor for her seduction. As Batman put it, "she poisons the mind just as she poisons the body". This archetype is unusued to direct physical violence, hence why they rely on such tactics to achieve their goals. This is why I oppose the implementation of her goal, it's too direct and brutish.

This is why Cassiopeia's initial backstory had her be a slut who gained enemy secrets by getting into pants of men.

(on a side note, wanna know what the male equivalent is? It's the sinister advisor next to the king, but rather seducing him he offers bad advice. Think Grima Wormtongue and the shit he did to Theodin before Gandalf came)

To me, that persona sounds like it wants to have charm, burst, and execute mechanics. Maybe even stealth. Not so much with the sustained damage over time thing. Obvious bias is obvious.

Ahri ? The one you think of is different. While I described a manipulator who is a stranger to the use of brawn, the one you described is a nymph.

Playful, flighty, giggles when evading capture by men. Not sure if execution really fits into the picture though. While the back-stabbing rich bitch aims to slowly corrupt your heart, the nymph is just screwing with you to cause trouble or just have a good time...both. is kinda fitting what with her ball and all that. I feel her concept could have been fleshed out more though. Her most distinctive feature is 9 tails...and none of her kit utilizes it.

**TL;DR **- Indirect, subtle, cowardly, forceless, and takes it's time to harm the victim. Cassiopeia appears harmless and the immediate impact of her attacks are barely felt. However it slowly eats away at her victims and by the time they realize the threat she poses, it is too late.

If it were up to me, I would have had her main source of power be her poison. But rather doing simple straight up damage over-time, Stashu could have been creative and made it more subtle.

have it ramp up into something truly devastating. Start out weak, but increase in damage the longer the target is poisoned until the enemy has no choice but to disengage ASAP
have it repeatedly throw loads of debuffs upon the target, weakning their defences, weakening their damage, etc. all the while the poison damage starts really hurting by virtue of the opponent's resistances being devastated by her poison

My disdain towards her E-spam style is how it directly contradicts what Cassiopeia is. Puts her up close and personal, forces her to not only directly interact with her target, but makes her best case scenario to be standing up close to her target so that she can man-handle them. That is the OPPOSITE of what should happen with someone like her.

Tupptupp XDJan 11, 20152 votes

I really like her rework. I've played her before, and i've played her after, and she feels much more comfortable now. Some quality of life changes like poison indicators would be quite nice though.

Highly disagree with cassiopeia being unplayable in aram. She can do tons of damage safely to any melee, and she's got good poke as well.

Tupptupp XDJan 11, 20152 votes

I really like her rework. I've played her before, and i've played her after, and she feels much more comfortable now. Some quality of life changes like poison indicators would be quite nice though.

Highly disagree with cassiopeia being unplayable in aram. She can do tons of damage safely to any melee, can 1v1 most ranged champs, and usually the other team will let you get 1-3 e's off before they turn on you, and she's got good poke as well.

futuresight23Jan 6, 20151 votes

This probably doesn't feel too relevant to this thread and probably means nothing in terms of whether people like the gameplay or feel that Cassiopeia fits a certain character archetype, but in solo queue for the past week Cassiopeia has the 3rd highest winrate (53.82%) behind Reksai and Heimerdinger. She also has the lowest play rate of champs in the top 10 winrates so that winrate may be highly subject to volatility. Still is worth tracking for the purposes of how well the numbers are tuned.

Again, this is kind of worthless in any discussion about what Cassiopeia should be as a champion. Still thought it was worth mentioning as it was double take worthy.

5G8Nri0B54Jan 6, 20153 votes

Yeah this has been well documented on champions like Cassiopeia. She isn't the only one with these problems.

However, her issue has NEVER been how OP or UP she was after the rework. She is UP, so what? Bring up her numbers problem solved. Her issue is gameplay. People keep using "her winrate is going up now!" as proof that her rework was a success.

There IS...however, rooms for discussion on why such champions have such low pickrate despite their high winrate. But it's pretty obvious that the Malzahar-effect is partly to blame.