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@Riot Why are you so resistant to giving Tank Junglers bonus damage to monsters?

Holgranth··4 votes·816 views

Why? I've been an advocate of this since the mess that was season 3's jungle rework, Jungler's are completely tied to their ability to get gold and xp through jungling. Full Stop. If you can't clear reliably you are worthless against skilled opponents. Faster clears = more time to gank, more time to take objectives, more time to invade, less time to be invaded.

"But Tanks have amazing ganks!" Cry apologists (and some Rioters in previous seasons) Ganks are unreliable and at this point there are plenty of champions with fast clears and equal or better Gank potential. Lee Sin has better ganks than any tank when you factor in his ability to tower dive and escape shitty situations.

Anytime "Tank" junglers have been good they have basically been super bruisers with damage and CC. Release Cinderhulk gave too much damage to EVERYTHING.

Tank jungler's can never and will never be balanced unless they can clear jungle competitively but don't have massive damage vs champions. Why ignore the obvious solution?

30 Comments

Ulquiorra9954 votes

Last time Riot made tank junglers strong they pushed Lee Sin out of the spotlight. Riot is sure never to repeat that atrocious mistake again.

Asayake 5150glow2 votes

Because Riot is dumb and fails to acknowledge that letting tanks 100-0 minion waves/clear jungle effectively without giving them bonus damage to minions/monsters makes tanks too powerful against champions.

Take Galio . His Q is perfect for jungling and waveclearing - high base damage, %maxhealth damage (great against jungle), large AoE (can hit multiple minions). However, despite it being a skillshot, it's not a very slow one, and thus does a ton of damage to champions, and due to it's large AoE, is very hard to dodge as well.

It's also got a few random things like an absurdly fast tick rate (the .5 seconds is not accurate at all for the first tick, so many times I've been barely clipped by it, and taken two hits anyway).

Erockandroll2 votes

To answer your question more directly. I imagine part of the problem is that a damage amp against monsters, would make such champs a bit more difficult to balance quite right. Because if you buff/nerf and abilities damage without considering those damage amps, you might have a problem were a tank has either, no damage at all against champs, or too much against Monsters.

The other issue may be that it's simply a boring or lazy approach to the problem. I think they should have more Unreliable damage, which can be reliably used against camps. (Sion's Q for example)

{quoted}

Amumu Is better off building AP after the last set of changes. Zac is constantly overpowered because he deals too much damage to champions. The others on your list ARE NOT TANKS. They are fighters or juggernauts.

Nautilus Sejuani Malphite Maokai Rammus Sion

These are Tanks. They suck in the jungle.

I think the more interesting question we should be asking is "What exactly is a Jungle tank?" Cause simply put it, "A tank who can jungle" isn't going to be super effective, at Jungling. (cause they arn't specifically designed to Jungle.) And again, extra damage against monsters feels like a lazy approach to make more Tanks able to Jungle, especially when they are already balanced top lane.

As far as I can tell, the primary difference is DPS. Jungle Tanks like Amumu have an unusually about of DPS, compared to Solo lane tanks like Sion. though that DPS is usually in the form of AoE. The second characteristic is that their main engage ability does not appear to be their ultimate. (at least, not the displacement portion) Otherwise, they would have trouble ganking pre 6.

So my question is, Can you make a Tank that is practically 100% designed to be a Jungler? Do we have such champions already? and if So, Are they viable or even interesting? Why or Why not?

Holgranth1 votes

Sejuani Is supposed to be as is Rammus . There is no earthly reason Malphite Nautilus and Sion couldn't be balanced in the jungle and top lane if they were given bonus damage to monsters.

Erockandroll2 votes

{quoted}

Sejuani Is supposed to be as is Rammus . There is no earthly reason Malphite Nautilus and Sion couldn't be balanced in the jungle and top lane if they were given bonus damage to monsters.

Naut, maybe. But the fact Sion and Malphite lack a non ultimate engage tool, really limits their gank potential pre 6. And even after 6, their ability to gank may become dependent on their ult CD.

Even if you give them clear speeds comparable to other Junglers, their not going to have the tools needed to gank effectively. And clear speeds can't really exceed that, without putting them on the wrong side of oppressive. (Strong for the wrong reason)

And now that I think about it, Damage to monsters, isn't the perfect solution either. A top laner, even if he's not the team's jungler, would have better ability to counter Jungle the enemy. (Like say when the lane is pushed) As well as having more neutral objective control. (A top laner with better ability to take the new Herald? that would be scary)

And again, Riot really would prefer not to muddy up champions, who are already good in another position. Probably more so if the resulting balancing, put's them in a position where their not good at either.

Glory971 votes

Amumu Shyvana Hecarim Warwick Zac Vi XinZhao all these buy 1 dmg item and go very tanky afterwards. All of them are not bad in the current meta. I can't see the probleme. Clearing jungle has never been easier than right now.

S0kaX3 votes

{quoted}

XinZhao all these buy 1 dmg item and go very tanky afterwards

Are we talking about the same Xin Zhao?

Holgranth2 votes

Amumu Is better off building AP after the last set of changes. Zac is constantly overpowered because he deals too much damage to champions. The others on your list ARE NOT TANKS. They are fighters or juggernauts.

Nautilus Sejuani Malphite Maokai Rammus Sion

These are Tanks. They suck in the jungle.

Jorencice1 votes

Wooo. AP amumu for life.

I'm sad they nerfed it down to 10% true damage.

But I can still 1 shot squishys so whatever.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

Amumu Shyvana Hecarim Warwick Zac Vi XinZhao all these buy 1 dmg item and go very tanky afterwards. All of them are not bad in the current meta. I can't see the probleme. Clearing jungle has never been easier than right now.

Shyv often goes item 1416 item 3748 , and sometimes item 3078 item 3022 item 3153 on top of that... her damage with just 1 item is pretty shit tbh, Titanic gives decent burst alone but she won't kill anyone by herself, assuming decent peel.

Zac and Amumu often don't even buy a damage item.

Xin usually gets more than 1, with item 1419 item 3078 or item 3153 .

:/

l Helios l1 votes

Tanks, by virtue, almost always have high CC and AoE abilities. This allows them to avoid bursting down enemy champions while also being relevant beyond being a damage sponge. Coincidently, enemy champions aren't the only ones vulnerable to CC; jungle monsters can experience all of these disables. In addition, all but 3 camps (as of this season) are horde camps where AoE is the defining feature of clear speed, and two of them are buff camps you get every 5 minutes. Let's take someone like Amumu . What's the one thing that holds him back? It's not his damage to camps, it's his mana problems. He has a % hp AoE, a basic attack reduction, and a second AoE. Gragas ? 3 AoEs, one is % hp, one stuns. Hecarim ? AoE Q and heal on his W Udyr ? W heal and R AoE. He just got changed tho, so maybe he will be better with Q. Not too many junglers who are tanks really need it. The only one is probably Skarner ? And he has bigger issues than that.

Further, things tend to get out of hand when we try and give bonus monster damage. Remember when Shyvana was a monster a few months ago? The difficulty is you have to find someone who struggles hard enough at clearing to justify just bonus monster damage and not something like more base mana/mana scaling, a higher cap on monster damage from % hp, etc. Flat bonus damage is really good, and can get out of hand very easily.

Holgranth3 votes

Gragas like Zac is always OP whenever he has good clear times because he can also nuke champions.

Who the hell thinks Hecarim and Udyr are tanks?

EndlessSorcerer4 votes

"But they build defensive items so they must be tanks!"

They are basically the same people who insist Mundo is a tank.

l Helios l1 votes

DrMundo item 3065 item 3068 item 3143 item 3083 item 3047 ? Not a tank? What is Mundo then?

EndlessSorcerer2 votes

High damage, high durability/sustain, low mobility, low utility.

Juggernaut.

l Helios l1 votes

These nuanced titles are so dumb. Here's the thing: Mundo, having high durability and sustain, performs the duty of 1. Diving the backline and 2. Soaking damage for carries. In these aspects, he fulfills the conditions of a traditional tank, regardless of whatever spin Riot wants to put on it. This is the same across all champions who are forced to build defensive items in order to be useful. That's why he builds defensive items and almost nothing but, besides maybe a item 3748. Having higher damage doesn't make him not a tank. Maokai Zac Amumu Gnar Nautilus all have rather respectable damage and are classified by Riot as "Wardens" or "Vanguards."

Ralanr2 votes

Mundo doesn't so much dive the back line as he "walks towards them".

Mundo builds nothing but health and health regeneration because it makes his self healing better. The more healing he has, the longer he can last and kill people.

He's a damage threat first and foremost. He's not a tank in league.

l Helios l1 votes

Not really. I've never fought a Mundo and said, "holy shit he does damage! I really need to be careful of his damage!"

Besides, what you're defining in any other game that doesn't use a fancy label is a tank. Mundo, in every regard, is a tank, albeit a more damage focused, less CC focused tank, but a tank.

Ralanr1 votes

So does that mean every melee champion that builds durable is a tank to you?

So everyone is an adc if they build straight damage?

l Helios l1 votes

Darius damage focused tank. Gangplank attack damage carry Maokai CC focused tank who still deals good damage Leblanc magic assassin Caitlyn attack damage carry Fiddlesticks mage Fiora attack damage carry Nautilus CC focused tank Rumble magic damage carry Nasus damage focused tank Mordekaiser magic damage carry Pantheon depends on how he builds, but either assassin or damage focused tank Vi damage focused tank with some good CC Graves unbalanced tankier attack damage carry Camille bullshit

That's how I think the game is. The goal of the game is always to kill, the only nuances are in how you do it. Mundo tries to kill, but it's by distraction, slows, and what damage he is able to do before he dies. At the end of the fight, it doesn't matter if the Mundo is dead and his carries are alive, because he, most likely, did his job.

Ralanr1 votes

...

I'm just to suggest agreeing to disagree because honestly I don't want to deal with having to explain this over to someone who is probably not open to changing their opinion.

l Helios l1 votes

If you can prove the nuance is actually necessary for some reason beyond classification, then I'll be more than happy to reevaluate, but as it is, the distinction is meaningless at worst.

By that I mean if Mundo becomes meta along with garen and illaoi, no one will say it's a juggernaut meta. They'd say it's a tank meta.

Ralanr1 votes

That's because people only consider being tanky is what makes a tank.

l Helios l1 votes

Tanks also have natural defensive steroids or mitigation of some kind that is almost always self-supporting.

Ralanr1 votes

So is GP a tank because he has a heal?

Is Irelia one because of tenacity?

l Helios l1 votes

That's my point: giving flat clear speed makes junglers really strong, that's why you shouldn't give it out like candy.

Hecarim builds item 3078 then full tank; it's pretty rare you ever see a full ad Hecarim anymore. I hardly ever see him at all period. Udyr builds item 3078 then goes full tank unless he's doing full AD, which might be good now.

The Sword Saint1 votes

Tank junglers scale. They are an investment into the mid and late game. You're supposed to be at a disadvantage against early junglers like lee that's the point.

Your argument is like saying 'why should vayne have a hard time early compared to early game adcs' while ignoring that vayne is a late game scaling champion being compared to someone specialized in shutting down late game champions.

The meta is for early-mid game junglers so making an investment into a late game pick means you understand and accept that you have to adapt your play early because you are weaker until you scale. Letting tank junglers be just as strong early as actual early game junglers is just giving you a free pass and makes early game junglers irrelevant.

Ralanr1 votes

Personally I'm not a big fan of giving tanks bonus damage to monsters. I'd much rather they have unreliable skillshots that are really easy to land on stationary targets.

But I'm a Sion main so I'm biased.

GULAG 4 U1 votes

Have you seen the cinderhulk changes?

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