"A fight loses its excitement if the first punch wins," Riot 2014.

Holgranth·7/9/2018, 3:19:43 PM·322 votes·25,502 views

Muh ethnically diverse slang phrase that implies brotherhood between individuals!

What the hell happened? Seriously? Back in 2014 and 2015 we were removing DFG and trying to move away from one shots.

2017-2018 we make and crank damage through the roof with new masteries. Then refuse to even have a discussion about damage creep. This entire season in casual and pro play is 100% about landing that first punch.

Ghostcrawler and Meddler and co. It is time to stop trying to make LCS "exciting" while destroying the foundations of the game.

149 Comments

La Bello7/9/2018, 3:38:32 PM92 votes

Its not just runes but also item direction. item 3147 item 3095 item 3087 item 3748 ect all adding spikes of damage.

imo we need to have more "overtime" effects like item 3151 "Madness" passive and how it can give you damage but ONLY in prolonged fights or how item 3124 takes multiple attacks to "activate".

Wanting your game to be faster paced doesn't also mean every teamfight has to end in 3 seconds or every duel is literally decided within the first 0.5 seconds.

NA Darklarik7/9/2018, 4:49:44 PM61 votes

Again, this was when Morello (who said the quote) was in the balance team, a man who knew what the hell he was doing, unlike Meddler and Ghostcrawler. I find it no coincidence that things went steadily downhill ever since he left.

Wish they would put him and his philosophies back, but im not sure he even works at riot anymore. Been ages since i saw him anywhere.

Nea1047/9/2018, 7:27:02 PM46 votes

It's JULY. JULY. Pre-season ended like 6 months ago :D And everyone already knew what's wrong, ie. damage.

July. And they still keep buffing it :D

FCJAAAAGOOOO7/9/2018, 7:28:00 PM41 votes

One-shotting with Veigar was fun.

One-shotting with literally everyone is not.

Usefully Useless7/9/2018, 9:56:13 PM34 votes

Even funnier is how Riot believes that we will watch LCS regardless of the state of the game...Used to love watching LCS, the strategies, the teamwork, the PLAYS! Now it's just insert champ here does lots of damage really fast . Yay. SO exciting to watch. You basically just set up a really cool team format for LCS only to have your general core gameplay make nobody give a f**k about watching it.

Also, if game companies haven't learned their lesson with Ghostcrawler by now it is their own fault and they deserve the blowback from it. He's great at single player and horrible at MMO, this is not a hidden secret. cough World of Warcraft cough. Anyone that can genuinely make the comment "You don't need to play the game you design to be a great designer" (Paraphrased) deserves the boot. What other job in the world can you continually provide poor performance without repercussions?

Rant over. I don't enjoy the state of the game and I think it's really too far gone now because they blatantly have shown they don't care about their original design philosophy. It's a shame having to let go of something that used to be so great. Now you log in for the occasional ARAM with friends and avoid SR in any form as much as possible.

Anin7777/9/2018, 8:41:55 PM33 votes

Funny thing is, LCS was wayyyyy more fun back then. Risks were taken with the knowledge that a comeback was possible.

Amoc7/9/2018, 7:39:36 PM28 votes

OP this post is great. It's total palm: Meet face.

I get that Riot and LoL evolve with time, but what was clear a few years ago is that DFG meta wasn't fun.

Today it's even worse. What is Riot missing?

Teridax687/9/2018, 7:03:35 PM23 votes

The thing is, I'd be okay with a champion who could one-shot an opponent, so long as there was this clear process of interaction where said opponent had meaningful options available to outplay the effect, and could then punish the one-shot champion for failing. Zoe is frustrating not simply because she's designed to one-shot, but because she's also designed to eliminate as much interaction as possible from the process, hitting targets from out of nowhere, and retreating to a safe place with a whole bunch of tools that allow her to not only easily disengage, but also one-shot enemies trying to kill her. This, in general, I feel describes the state of burst in League right now, because it's very easy for many champions to lay down burst, and so in a manner that enemies can't really outplay (e.g. any on-hit burst item). This, in turn, leads to the whole first-punch-wins problem, because not only will the first punch win a fight, but often there is no other choice but to throw the first punch, since there are no other viable means of winning a fight. Burst should never be as uninteractive as it is in the current state of League.

Akumu7/9/2018, 10:53:51 PM23 votes

The sad part is that LCS isnt even exciting and viewership is in the toilet.

How about focusing on making a fucking good game again and not the pro scene, maybe people will actually watch it again.

yangus Beef7/9/2018, 3:29:26 PM20 votes

{quoted}

Muh ethnically diverse slang phrase that implies brotherhood between individuals!

What the hell happened? Seriously? Back in 2014 and 2015 we were removing DFG and trying to move away from one shots.

2017-2018 we make and crank damage through the roof with new masteries. Then refuse to even have a discussion about damage creep. This entire season is casual and pro play is 100% about landing that first punch.

Ghostcrawler and Meddler and co. It is time to stop trying to make LCS "exciting" while destroying the foundations of the game.

League of burst Graves Quinn MonkeyKing Draven Evelynn MissFortune Talon Taliyah Fizz Zed Zoe Aatrox Ekko Kassadin Katarina Nidalee Nocturne Darius Camille Jhin Swain Lucian Ezreal

All champions listed wins if they have initiation, due to huge burst damage. What at the bottom tier of the game?

Ornn TahmKench Varus Caitlyn Tristana Azir MasterYi Amumu Corki Nunu Nasus Sivir Nautilus Rammus Olaf KogMaw Zac Ryze Shen

DarkinPrime7/10/2018, 2:31:53 AM15 votes

Why even bother posting? The cowards at Riot won't ever actually engage in a conversation. How could they? They would have to admit they are wrong or confess that the current business plan cares more about LCS, and to hell with what happens to the rest of the gameplay

BobaFlautist7/9/2018, 7:30:31 PM14 votes

That was before One-Punch-Man became super popular, proving them wrong.

Stephenizgod7/9/2018, 8:16:31 PM13 votes

I love the argument from Zoe players that she requires set-up and all these lists of requirements before she can one-shot, but then in game she ults at me and AA's and i lose 40-60% of my Hp with just that alone. Then a Q comes flying from out side of my vision and kills me, but even if it misses, I still lost majority of my HP from her R-AA... The champ is disgusting.

"If a fight isn't decided within the first attack, we need to buff the items and champions until it is" - probably Riot 2018

This is how it feels nowadays...

The Space Cowboy7/9/2018, 8:02:37 PM13 votes

Want to know what happened since they said burst was unhealthy? It was overwatch, pubg, and fortnight taking away a slice of the market. I still wish riot would cater to their base, but it appears they are catering to the casual crowd. Funny thing is newbs suffer from damage creep more than vets because they don’t know what to be careful around.

Black JesusV7/10/2018, 11:05:59 AM13 votes

THIS GAME IS IN CHAOS As a player for 8 years. This game is going down the toilet. It is opinionated, after many heated debates between friends/colleagues and graduates. I am Diamond 4, I have made 4 different smurf accounts in different elos for different situations (drunk/high/super tired/learning) 8 years is a long time.. yes i do have a life. Thanks. ;)

1 outplay: Outplaying isn't a thing anymore in League of legends. It's simply based on the "FIRST PUNCH" rule. It means whoever gets their combo off first, is going to win the fight AND this is due to the NATURAL nature of ITEMS in league of legends. Here are a FEW. item 3100 item 3285 item 3748 item 3147 THESE items, aren't toxic to the game environment due to SCALING. They require "some" skill/champion prowess to proc off and get full stacks in order for them to be 100% effective in fights/skirmishes or even small trades in League of legends. item 3071 item 3124

1 Explanation: These items have been added to the game to create a large volume of damage within a short time (burst)/assassinate/clear. Why they are bad is because it creates a large pool of champions who are MADE to run these items more powerful, and not only THAT, but another LARGE pool of champions who weren't looked at when creating these champions these large volume of damage within a short time (burst)/assassinate/clear champions. For example: Jhin (stormrazor/crit/burst HE HAS 4 SHOTS IT MAKES SENSE. ZED he's an assassin it already makes sense) And then you have Champions like MonkeyKing Pantheon Graves Zoe JarvanIV . These champions have extremely unfair advantages, some much more than others, and when you mix the two of them together (items and champions) it becomes a MESS.THERE ARE A TON OF CHAMPIONS I AM CURRENTLY NOT NOTING BECAUSE THIS COMMENT WOULD BE AGES. Wukong, a champion who has stealth, AOE extremely quick, a JUKE as well as HIGH burst/bruiser/full tank capabilities should NOT be eligible to run Duskblade/lethality. Idk what Riot was thinking when they implemented that. Wukong NOW as in today, is in the assassin role, but can still 1 shot an ADC lineup without being detected. JARVAN, a champion who at PRE 6, can flag and drag into flash Auto with a gank follow up or even as a laner be a glass cannon and still extremely hard to kill with minimum repercussion, not even talking about ADC there's 12 ways to enter the mid lane, VISION is a key in league of legends, and IT WORKS. but that's where we delve DEEPER. (with FACTS/Evidence/PROOF). IT brings me to my next #1. Evelynn/Rengar/Khazix(Pre R rework) These champions run on stealth but can 100-0 TANKS... These are champions that have the ability to MOVE without being SEEN or CAUGHT the whole game whilst picking off teams. WHY is that toxic? Because not everyone wants to play an anti-split team comp in solo Q, people dont communicate or think the same about things. Nor do people want to consistently CHANGE 100% of their GAMEPLAY to avoid SUCH champions. its 1/10 CHAMPIONS in the game that can change everything. there are 137 champions in league of legends, yet, only 8% have the BORING ability/manipulation to CHANGE everything. If Riot wants everything balanced, then why isn't it THAT way. They want things UNIQUE but some are SOOO much more unique than OTHERS. (garen and Darius, SAME thing, different skills PLAYED THE SAME. difference is garen has more speed darius has a pull and slow.) So when you MIX Evelynn/Rengar/khazix WITH these items, they become much more broken and overpowered than they ever needed to really BE. It doesn't just TAKE 1 kill or situation, It IS NOT hard to play these champions without gaining a lead. When only 5 Control/PINK wards can be placed on the map and you can't physically SEE where an Evelynn IS... but you have to sit at your tower because your lane opponent is acting "funky" or just mind gaming you? so 50/50% chance to not get 100-0'd? But you know, if Evelynn/Rengar/Twitch/Khazix get caught by a pink ward... IT ALARMS THEM. You can teleport/run STRAIGHT into lane and drop that pink and it will ALERT them, that they've been seen... for 0.05% of the game and thats 75 gold down the toilet :) BUT Riot wants to make a "MISSION in your client for an extra 50 BE" BECAUSE not enough players are buying PINKS vs Stealthed champions? thats like... 1k... just in laning PHASE for a team, down the toilet for goddamn PINK wards... well in higher level play anywho.

At this point, i'm ranting, I genuinely CANNOT spew enough information from my brain to this comment/Thread, it's ridiculous. I love this game and TBH i'm so disappointed with how the game has gone.

2 builds with champions: Theres ALOT of champions that do this, and it's even briefly touched above. but 1 champion will HELP solve it all. Ever seen an Akali with 1-2 damage items and the rest TANK and she STILLLLLLLL blows up your TEAM/SUSTAINS through it all!? item 3146 item 3068 item 3200 item 3157 item 3065 item 3116 . I'm not saying there's a problem with the ITEMS, i'm saying theres a PROBLEM with the champion. Now, before everyone gets upset. Akali isn't played a whole lot. AND that is because she's BORING, TELEGRAPHED and well just downright STUPID none of her kit flows in the slightest. This champion has been lacking a rework SINCE she came out. I would personally even say she takes more skill than Annie WHO is also a name in this list. EXCEPT Annie, is expected to BURST as a mage/assassin. Akali IS NOT MEANT TO ABSORB/HEAL 20k DAMAGE IN A GAME AND DEAL 30k+ in 35 MINUTES! Riot doesn't think about these things. They've gotten SO LAZY/"overwhelmed with work" they fail to realize these THINGS that consistently are toxic to the environment EVEN as... SORRY 10% of themselves PLAYERS to the DAMN game. THAT THEY CANT SEE the NEWEST Aatrox REWORK IS INSANE! FOREAL? GETTING out of lane as akali UNSCATHED isn't hard. it isn't. PLAY HER TOP LANE. Ez day. Farm with Q, Sustain etc. Aatrox the same OR you know 3/0 your opponent every game you get him. OR just ban him right? But Aatrox is fun, he's new, and different. Akali isn't, so she's welcomed. IDGAF if she's getting a rework. the champs been this way for 2+ YEARS.

2 explanation: Riots getting lazy, they fail to realize what truly is BREAKING the game.

3 Masteries: the newest masteries... They're a different spin on the game... BUT TOO SOON WAYYYY TOO SOON. League of legends for me as a veteran, i'm OKAY with change it's fine, it never broke the camels back until you put a 1,000 pound woman on the camels back. But you put a 700 pound woman on the camels back :)... Lel, i'm cringey AF. Riot, you guys rush into things so quickly, it isn't even funny anymore with every champion you release to be broken or 100% WORSE. This has got to be one of THEE worst. BUT WAIT before you JUSTIFY how cool the "new" masteries are, why dont you STOP and WATCH, what i did there. item 2423 a 600 gold item for a FREE mastery point. SURE it's a mastery point, so is FREE true damage that is AVAILABLE TO BRUISERS/TANKS/ADC'S. STOP WATCH IS TOO LOL. a GP with STOP watch? ARE YOU SERIOUS? A BRUISER with a 2 Second Q AA with 200 extra damage/Barrels/true DAMAGE that can all be procced within the full combo into a stop watch for a SECOND COMBO? you guys are NUTS. there is no "OUTPLAY" or I'm "BETTER" It's (I picked better, or I outscale, nothing you can do) SCALING is HARD AF RIGHT NOW 7/10/2018... Except for jax and Ezreal to even put the CHERRY on top... Kleptomancy.. FREE GOLD? MORE RNG TO THE GAME OF SKILL AND NUMBERS? LETS GIVE THIS GUY a FREEEEEEEE 3k GOLD PER GAME BECAUSE THIS MASTERY!!!!

3 explanation: I went nuts on that, but realistically... There have been professional players ON stage who have won games without masteries (before the mastery update), before you think i contradicted myself, think of those professional players who took masteries PRE the mastery update and how much worse it would have been on given champions BECAUSE they OUTPLAYED their opponents WITH SKILL, MECHANICS AND TEAM PLAY. It doesn't sound like a big deal. But when you mix a SKILL/mentality based game, with luck/GUESSING it becomes much more CHAOS. THERE IS NO PRO PLAY ITS JUST RETARDS 1 HITTING EACHOTHER. THERE IS NO SKILLLLL. There is NO perfect SITUATION or TEAM, even BEFORE the mastery update, but this one, just made things much more chaotic ~ Riot wanted PLAYERS to pick what they wanted to do with their given champions (give them more VARIETY)... Sadly, i like this idea, but it's terrible for the gaming community considering league of legends HELL even the WORLD is evolving to always be the best at everything... NO ONE plays this game on a serious note, without taking MASSIVE consideration into what the professional players are playing vs/into/situational options... making a "NON- cookie cutter" game is EVERY games dream. But it can't and it WON'T ever be. Unless you're too stubborn to realize that someone else is better than you, or "possibly". Experimentation isn't bad.. but in RANKED/PRO/High level play.. experimentation in ANY competitive game in a game where IT MATTERS is extremely frowned upon and this is no 1 elses fault BUT Riots. BUT granting a player 5k FREE gold from pressing 1 key and getting lucky with an extra 20 AD 200 HP in laning isn't? (kleptomancy/red pot/ Iron pot). yeah yeah kleptos bullshit. but giving MORE players 600 free gold for STOP and WATCH and they still get the active use ABUSE.

4 Pro play: I myself am NOT a pro player, and again, i touched up on it in the section ABOVE. However, everyone wants to be the best, watches the best, and you EVEN advertise the best, idol the BEST. Yet... Professional players are asking for MORE bans, talking about THE TRASH meta 7/10/2018, MOST dislike the new masteries, the NEWEST pro play bracket, Unbalance, NOT enough testing on certain champions, the meta ALWAYS changing like 4x the more rapid rate than previously. Nuff said

4 explanation: You can't have new players be legends and usher in a new era of league of legends when your game is trash RN. RIP 2016-8.11

CppL7/10/2018, 5:55:30 AM7 votes

Its not the same riot anymore.Thats was morello who said that.Now we have these 2 clowns.Who dont know shit about balance.

heroikc7/9/2018, 3:53:22 PM7 votes

All damage, no protection.

Schmutzdackeln7/10/2018, 12:44:22 AM7 votes

I just played a game. By 8m the other team got a load of kills. After having done this buff on dmg, early game and snowball. At least make a normal surrender button 10m into the game. I dont have the patience to play normally 12m more because ONE didnt want to surrender. And not really a rant but just a suggestion, maybe I'm getting too old. But play 12m when I KNOW I'm going to loose no matter how I play is just a complete waste of time. You can't even wave clear and stall game that way because the damn buildings in-front of the inhibitor are not deserved to be called a tower lol

ChosenOfTheMoon7/10/2018, 9:44:35 AM7 votes

One shoting is and should be considered by everyone, TOXIC.

TyroneWatermelon7/10/2018, 12:43:34 AM5 votes

Too bad morello despawned.

woodvsmurph7/10/2018, 5:02:12 PM5 votes

It's more an issue of outplay potential. Like before... teams would still see an enemy squishy on the frontline and their mage would nuke said squishy from 100-0 in late game teamfight. But the other team still fought back... because that burst mage had used basically all her effective damage for the next 8+ sec and only had minor-to-moderate damage to contribute afterwards. But now if anyone dies, that team just retreats and attempts to minimize casualties.

As far as I see it... there's 3 core tenets to champions: damage, durability, mobility. You can balance champs to be amazing at one, but weaker in the other two, moderately strong at 2, but really weak in a third, or just ok at all 3 (balance of all 3).

Ex: Kog'maw gets a ton of damage but sacrifices mobility and durability Darius gets moderate damage (high early, moderate late) AND moderate durability at cost of mobility Vayne gets high damage (moderate early, high late) AND mobility at cost of durability

But stuff has become more unbalanced with some champs getting kits or utilizing items to have all 3 in spades such that they match or exceed the power rating you'd give another champ in EVERY one of those 3 categories BY FAR. And that is where much of the problem lies. You picked champ q? I pick champ w... which matches you on two of the three tenets and vastly exceeds you on the third tenet. And the second half of the problem (not percentage/faction-wise... merely the second thing) is team comps. You see this in HOTS all the time, and it's found its way into league in recent seasons. Stuff like the juggermaw comp, ardent censer meta, and funnel comps. It's when you drafting the right team comp all but eliminates the supposed weakness(es) a champ has that you can exploit. Such that a champ can no longer be properly punished.

Ex: yi plus kayle or yi plus lulu. Yi has insane damage and mobility, but he pays for it with lack of durabilty (arguably not enough). But add in funneling gold to him and his damage skyrockets way ahead of the curve. Now his only problem is that he can still get cc'd and blown up and can't tower dive easily without someone to tank tower. But wait. He's got invulnerability due to kayle ult. Or he has a giant lulu ult, lulu shield, and even help pix for extra damage and movespeed. So there is no longer the punishing factor of lack of durability. And due to fights being decided so quickly and durability being much lower than in seasons past, opponents do not have the same option of taking out yi's supporting cast first... unless they can 1-shot said enemies.

That's just an example which highlights the problems/differences we see in league today vs in the past. Riot can't really prevent the latter problem of team comps empowering individual champions too much, unless they balance champs specifically around their ability to empower (or be empowered by) other champs. Which we saw some of with supports and orianna getting a nerf to their shielding. But they CAN do something about champs not being balanced properly around the 3 tenets of damage, mobility, and durability. This would include changes to some champions as well as probably certain items or item combo's. They made a good first step with sterak triforce change. Hopefully they do more.

JohnnyNeverSins7/10/2018, 11:34:36 PM4 votes

"No need to play the game in order to balance it"

~Some fucktard.

Yaskamasandwich7/10/2018, 10:45:23 PM3 votes

Different times, different balance team. No more Morello who didn't know what to do, but definately knew what NOT to do.

YuGiHo7/11/2018, 1:29:28 AM2 votes

hey man. i think zoe is fine because damage is her thing. i dont think other champs should be doing zoe lv's of damage though.

GrãñðmãstêrShãçø7/11/2018, 9:52:37 AM2 votes

Upvote it so Riot maybe sees it