@Riot Sotere I've been a Jungle main 8 years, your changes are the worst idea I have ever seen.

Holgranth··187 votes·29,219 views

Your goals are okay, but your methods are the most half baked, poorly thought out and rushed set of changes since Season 1. This makes the season 2 jungle changes look good by comparison. This will almost certainly warp the Meta harder than release cinderhulk.

Lets look at those goals.

Goals:

  • Reduce early lane pressure from junglers
    
  • Increase the number of jungle v. jungle interactions in the early game
    
  • Encourage variation in optimal pathing
    
  • Reduce mana restraints as a hard blocker for champions that want to jungle
    

I agree with the first and last, the middle two are debatable (there are several junglers that already get screwed over by "early jungle interaction")

Now your "Solution"

High level tactics:

  • There is now only one Rift Scuttler on the map at any given time. The spawn location will be determined randomly, with a lot of notice given ahead of time to where it's going to spawn. Its rewards are also substantially higher than on Live
    
  • Jungle experience is down early game: most notably this means that routes to level (3) are not as simple as going Buff -> Camp -> Buff. Instead, you hit 3 with the following routes:
      2 standard camps and a Rift Scuttler
      3 camps if you include a Krug clear
      4 standard camps
    
  • Talisman will return substantially more mana regen based on your missing mana as you clear the jungle
    
  • Runic Echoes will get a face lift to make it more mage friendly
    

Talisman and RE changes are good. Skuttler changes make me want to call for your resignation.

I see how you got down this rabbit hole but your solution with Skuttler is short sighted and gimmicky. You are trying to slap a quick fix on a complex and nuanced problem. Jungle pressure is too strong early and often too weak late. Junglers need less XP early game and more access to gold and XP late game. I'd be open to radical solutions like adjusting jungle spawn times, having solo lanes level up faster, 2 camps to level 2 and so on.

But making scuttle crab an RNG based objective that will blatantly favor some junglers over other is NOT a permanent solution to a deeply rooted XP and power curve problem that has been there in some form since people started taking smite on Warwick in Season 1. I agree that the jungle STILL has problems. I strongly dislike the buff camp, regular camp, buff camp meta we have right now. I don't have a perfect solution to all the problems, but the solution needs to involve nerfing or changing early leveling in jungle and/or lane experience gain, while buffing Jungler late game gold and XP.

Take a Day off. Go home. Rethink your approach. Look for a better solution than this gimmick. Do your job or consider stepping aside and letting someone else handle the jungle.

108 Comments

meatiestmacroc107 votes

Give up, they aren't listening or they listen and just ignore it.

They refuse to accept changes based off the community because they are too proud and think that their way is the best. Too proud to admit mistakes.

Just give up, you are wasting your time and to be honest, they don't deserve your time at this point.

Edit: Hey I just realized, do you know what benefits this change the most? LCS!

Murl0ugh15 votes

To be completely fair, they have admitted they were wrong a few times recently. HOPEFULLY, (although I doubt it) they will stop the scuttle change before it gets realised screwing the game up a tad further.

Schàdenfreude8 votes

Making scuttle have more experience and therefore making it a more important objective might be nice, but the problem of it is that scuttle spawns will be RNG now. I wouldn't mind increasing experience too much (although I would prefer it to be the same as this change will decimate tank junglers) but the RNG associated with scuttle is fucking ridiculous.

Verxint7 votes

What's funny is DotA added the bounty rune specifically because one side getting a huge boost and the other getting nothing because one of them lucked on RNG was getting stupid.

Riot seems to think forcing people to fight over everything and making it incredibly punishing not to is the way to make more action but it actually has the opposite effect most of the time

My Tank Top Is6 votes

Well responses like these help convince the players to leave league. Which is a reason well enough for riot to listen soonsummoner 11

Reaper Claws2 votes

They advertently disregard the fact that they as a company are reliant on us. If we just one day had enough of Riot's bs and left, they are the ones that are going to suffer for it.

Silverjust2 votes

Well in that case, good bye summoners rift.

And also, if they want more LCS views, make them play on the current patch, otherwise they could give them a different patch

Aptest35 votes

To some extent i agree with this post.

I want to see a game where jungler is getting ganked. But at levels 1-3 it is i think not the time. lanes are not yet developed enough to afford rotations, and this is too early to disrupt the early game "race to level 2" wave control dynamics with a "i need help, laner come rotate on me".

Like OP said, forcing jungler VS jungler fights at levels 2-3 favor the duelists too much, and the classes we want to shove into the jungle (tanks. I know you jungle mains also don't like playing them, please share the load) may be absolutely shoved out by this change.

Ratpie8 votes

{quoted}

To some extent i agree with this post.

I want to see a game where jungler is getting ganked. But at levels 1-3 it is i think not the time. lanes are not yet developed enough to afford rotations, and this is too early to disrupt the early game "race to level 2" wave control dynamics with a "i need help, laner come rotate on me".

Like OP said, forcing jungler VS jungler fights at levels 2-3 favor the duelists too much, and the classes we want to shove into the jungle (tanks. I know you jungle mains also don't like playing them, please share the load) may be absolutely shoved out by this change.

Completely agree. Tanks and casters are already almost completely out of jungle now. This will only make it worse.

Kira Dusk Edge27 votes

My main issue with scuttle change is it's a double win for early game invade jungles. Not only now do they get scuttle rewards but if their opponent tries to go for it as well they get scuttle and potential pressure on the enemy jungler. On top of that saving smite and having a mini smite war every game for scuttle sounds like a nightmare.

Edit: also at least invading jungle needs laner priority to go for without risk. Scuttle in river won't need lane priority and will be an insane buff to early duelists.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

The idea Riot says is - if you know ahead of time that your opponent will be in the river and you can't contest, it lets you invade the other side of their jungle and steal camps to stay in the game.

Kira Dusk Edge22 votes

Then they invade your side of the river with level advantage.

Ifneth2 votes

While you invade their jungle with a time advantage because Rift Scuttler takes time.

Kira Dusk Edge8 votes

Buffs start with 2100 hp level 1. Check out the wiki and in game. Wolf even starts with 1200 hp... All the camps big mosters start with 1200 hp+ besides raptors... So sure. Sooooo much time... lol

Edit: Plus theres a limited amount of camps. What do you do once all the camps are gone? oh right you back while the other jungler gets +1 camp....

double edit: and if you say they can gank... Their path is super predicted. If you die to a gank after it's very clear where the enemy jungler is then you must be playing low elo.

My Waifu Vanilla2 votes

Not necessarily. If Scuttle spawns botside and they go camp-camp-scuttle while you did all your botside camps or at least the ones that matter they will never make it to stop you in time and if they go in to your jungle they are going to get rocked by some krugs or a gromp while you get EVERYTHING on their topside. Scuttle starts with 400 more health. That's a LONG time to do considering it has about as much health as blue/red buff but a metric shit ton of armor/mr unless you can hard CC it which outside of tank junglers isn't going to happen at level 2.

3TWarrior1 votes

400 hp

if we assume about 80 damage per auto attack from machete bonuses, is about 10 seconds at most and likely far less

drop that number to 50 and it becomes just over 16

My Waifu Vanilla2 votes

That is still an incredibly long time for you to still just fail gank because both mid and the side lane dropped a ward on the side of the scuttle crab because that's the ONLY place you can gank from.

PB4UAME15 votes

Don't forget all their comments basically amounting to "fuck tank junglers," "Fuck ALL farm to 6 junglers, we don't like/want to support this play-style any more" and "Absolutely fuck top lane, we want them to be more influenced by the jungle than now, instead of less like people have been crying for literally months for."

I wish all the RIOTers involved were shifted to other projects or outright fired. None of those people have any business touching anything large scale, anything systemic to the game, or any role period. Be it Jungle, top, or god forbid them being involved at all for any of the upcoming botlane changes.

SHANK LUX MAINS1 votes

I mean tank junglers are aids as fuck, but mostly it fucks every jungler that isn't a duelist lvl 2

PB4UAME2 votes

True, but they had comments specifically acknowledging that this would shaft every single tank jungle and seriously went 'lol we know, will look at it a few months down the road, totes promise kthx'

Bisaknosp12 votes

{quoted}

  • Increase the number of jungle v. jungle interactions in the early game
    

so they want LeeSin on the top again

Blynx12 votes

I came back to league this season and thought, "finally, a season where they don't fuck up the jungle." Who was I kidding lol, just had to wait a few weeks.

Proxiimus11 votes

What it comes down to is, that Riot doesn't listen to their community. You have a bunch of Gold and below Rioters who think they know whats best for the game.. Like someone said before, what does this benefit? LCS. More interaction and action during the LCS because there is none... its a literal boring farmfest til it becomes an aram at 20 minutes. A Rioter made a post here describing the jungle changes and the community started posting feedback.. What was Riots response to the feedback? They spent replies on defending their changes... Someone called them out on it and they defended themselves saying 'Oh we defend our changes but we do take in consideration the feedback we get' which is a straight lie.

NotSpecialDude3 votes

Sad thing is, I can't blame them for it. Lets be honest here, LCS is a big deal to riot and everyone knows it, but right now LCS has a hard time penetrating the masses that don't already know of this game. The only cool thing to watch in this game from the perspective of a non-league savvy viewer is the are the fights. You said it yourself, it is a snorefest. For the last few seasons, Riot has been wishy-washy with who they would support leading to a lot of stupid changes.

I'm glad they finally put their foot down and picked what group they want to focus on. I'm just down that I'm not part of that group.

Zone of Endless8 votes

{quoted}

Sad thing is, I can't blame them for it. Lets be honest here, LCS is a big deal to riot and everyone knows it, but right now LCS has a hard time penetrating the masses that don't already know of this game. The only cool thing to watch in this game from the perspective of a non-league savvy viewer is the are the fights. You said it yourself, it is a snorefest. For the last few seasons, Riot has been wishy-washy with who they would support leading to a lot of stupid changes.

I'm glad they finally put their foot down and picked what group they want to focus on. I'm just down that I'm not part of that group.

'esports' will be the death of a fun game. It happened with SC2 and it's sorta happening with rainbow siege where they stopped doing mid-season update because of proleague.

Proxiimus3 votes

It first started when they sold out to 'Franchises'.. Rick Fox actually loves the game and plays it.. These massive Basketball teams that invested in League teams are ruining the game.. The Golden State Warriors could give 2 shits about the gaming community as well as the Houston Rockets.. What Riot did was sell out what us as a community created to these billionaire buzzards who are coming in to pick at the community for money and that's it. I used to love the days when some random gamer could go out, pitch his team idea to a bunch of sponsors and create an LCS team.. Examples are Immortals, Enemy e-sports, CLG, TSM etc. Now, with Franchising, Riot is becoming a stock and the shareholders being the massive investors (Golden State Warriors, Houston Rockets, Cleveland Cavaliers and the Milwaukee Bucks).. and they are pressured to create a profit for those shareholders.. That's why so much is being focused on LCS with balancing and gameplay changes. Now that Riot has made millions off of its everyday players, the ones who helped build the company into what it is today, they could care less about the $20 in RP you bought, the skins you gifted.. All they care about is the multi-millions that these superpower sports franchises are investing in their company. Sad, but very true.

T4underbolt6 votes

Riot doesn't understand that lol lost viewers because they changed the game into casual fiesta that doesn't require skill anymore to play. Laning phase everywhere is only farming and picking 0 interaction champions. 2 or 3 tanks per game and enchanter support. Every game same sht. Making even more fights won't change anything

Verxint4 votes

What's stupid is making more incredibly punishing things like this is just going to make LCS more of a snoozefest. If tiny mistakes have huge penalties, pros just won't take risks. If they want action they should increase reliability and reduce risk while also making it less crippling to make one or two mistakes.

Velasan9 votes

Rift scuttler and scrying plants don't need to exist anyways.

They either give too much sustain or they give the team that is ahead way too much vision. Yet they keep taking away our ability to ward.

Scary Door9 votes

Boy oh boy, top lane is sure going to be fun with these changes.

Violent Hunter8 votes

[deleted]

Murl0ugh66 votes

He's been playing jungle for 8 years. I think he is qualified to give his opinion on the changes.

Hell I'm only 2 years in and I realize the scuttle change is really dumb. If these go through WW is prob gonna be even more pick/ban in Silver elo.

Violent Hunter5 votes

{quoted}

He's been playing jungle for 8 years. I think he is qualified to give his opinion on the changes.

Hell I'm only 2 years in and I realize the scuttle change is really dumb. If these go through WW is prob gonna be even more pick/ban in Silver elo.

Yeah but people say this same shit every big change. "Oh its the worst change ever!!!," EVERY TIME. I'm more in the realm of test it on pbe and give feedback. Not bitch off of theory. Then if you don't like and it still goes through then you can stop playing. Not hard. Not come on a board and bitch about something that no one has tested yet.

The Yetii Rider17 votes

I would agree with you, if Riot ever really made changes based on PBE feedback.

The major times Riot has made changes based on PBE feedback - Skarner/Garen/Darius (All of the changes made based on feedback were horrible and all three champions were horribly broken on release because of them), Lee Sin (that rework was hilarious, I'm so sad it never saw live) and Riven (Don't play her, no idea if the Edge mechanic was good or not).

Other than that, PBE is generally just for bugs and shit. Riot doesn't listen to player feedback. If they did, we wouldn't have plants.

Holgranth25 votes

[{quoted}](name=Spiritual Master,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TyUfUY6c,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2018-04-28T18:06:17.697+0000)

Yeah but people say this same shit every big change. "Oh its the worst change ever!!!," EVERY TIME. I'm more in the realm of test it on pbe and give feedback. Not bitch off of theory. Then if you don't like and it still goes through then you can stop playing. Not hard. Not come on a board and bitch about something that no one has tested yet.

I have played every meta since before Jungle was even considered a "required" role. I am NOT being hyperbolic when I say this is a the WORST idea I have ever seen. Usually I am optimistic about new changes but this is pure bullshit.

The big difference between me and the Rioter that made these changes is

  1. I probably have been playing the game longer (more historical knowledge of jungle)
  2. I am smart enough to know that I am not qualified to mess with the jungle.
diggerb1ck1 votes

the only saving grace would be to place people based on KDA ive said it forever and will live by it, fuck feeds. they can earn thier own shit.

xNerdyNinjax14 votes

So. Adc main? Used to support feeding you kills and dying for you? Cus, good supports would all be bronze V......

Proxiimus2 votes

Everyone says 'Its the worse change ever'.. And the TRENDS PROVE IT EVERY TIME.. League is on a downward spiral.. Most ex-pros absolutely HATE the state of the game.. People are watching Overwatch and Fortnite over League on Twitch consistently.. LCS viewership of teams OTHER than TSM, C9, CLG or Liquid are tanking.. the only time NA LCS gets viewers is when those 4 teams are playing eachother. Google Trends shows a complete downward spiral of the game interest.. To say that the changes are being accepted is just false... People are just straight leaving the game because it isn't fun anymore.. Tanks outdamaging bruisers, assassins that can't assassinate anyone.. Jhin with rageblade that gets 1000 AD off of it.. The balance team is legit Silver, they have no clue how to balance their game and its been out of balance since probably after Season 4.

Violent Hunter2 votes

{quoted}

Everyone says 'Its the worse change ever'.. And the TRENDS PROVE IT EVERY TIME.. League is on a downward spiral.. Most ex-pros absolutely HATE the state of the game.. People are watching Overwatch and Fortnite over League on Twitch consistently.. LCS viewership of teams OTHER than TSM, C9, CLG or Liquid are tanking.. the only time NA LCS gets viewers is when those 4 teams are playing eachother. Google Trends shows a complete downward spiral of the game interest.. To say that the changes are being accepted is just false... People are just straight leaving the game because it isn't fun anymore.. Tanks outdamaging bruisers, assassins that can't assassinate anyone.. Jhin with rageblade that gets 1000 AD off of it.. The balance team is legit Silver, they have no clue how to balance their game and its been out of balance since probably after Season 4.

If everything you are saying is the case why don't you quit the game then if it is so bad? Apparently its not if you are still playing the game today. So sit down and wait til you test it your damn self instead of crying like a bitch like most of the community.

Nhifu4 votes

8 years doesn't make you good.

Holgranth20 votes

No it dosen't, I have been consistently mediocre for 8 years, but I have a TON of experience with jungle and jungle changes.

DMate192 votes

But you are still silver, and have not improved in 8 years. If you don't have the game knowledge to climb out f silver in 8 years, your opinion on the topic is severely weakened

Lostcauz70710 votes

Because he is silver it more than likely affects him more. In silver elo jungle is to blame for basically everything. In higher elo the teams will fight early to get their jungle the scuttle. In lower rank like silver, if you can't 1v1 the other jungle level 2 then don't expect to get help from your team and give up a huge early game lead. Oh and then get blamed for it. Like if you are Lee sin level 2 vs any udyr you literally have to give it to him. Your team is not gonna group over scuttle and if they do (depending on how riot does it) they risk experience sap as well. It's a dumb idea.

ModJango Mage2 votes

Well, now you will have to kill scuttle for that experience ;)

DonatellaVersace8 votes

"Increase the number of jungle v. jungle interactions in the early game"

Evelynn item 3070

mack91121 votes

Try it out first man the dynamic changes we adapt

Weissritter9 votes

Its one thing do adapt to big changes once in a while. But seeing as riot literally overhauls and facelifts the entire jungle role every season it gets tiring and becomes a chore when we have to relearn the entire thing every season. The fact that its even so bad that they redo it every year and still dont get it right after what, 9 years is even more worrying.

mack91122 votes

[{quoted}](name=Weissritter XIII,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TyUfUY6c,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2018-04-28T23:48:52.491+0000)

Its one thing do adapt to big changes once in a while. But seeing as riot literally overhauls and facelifts the entire jungle role every season it gets tiring and becomes a chore when we have to relearn the entire thing every season. The fact that its even so bad that they redo it every year and still dont get it right after what, 9 years is even more worrying.

I really think that's a poor perspective. In my opinion the reason that the game is still around 9 years later is because they continue to overhaul the system and keep it fresh . The most exciting parts of this game come from trying new things for the first time.

MasterDClone8 votes

yes we like something new not something to get reworked every damn season much like ryze, there are very few people that want to see his 4th rework because it gets tiring

mack91122 votes

{quoted}

yes we like something new not something to get reworked every damn season much like ryze, there are very few people that want to see his 4th rework because it gets tiring

Where talking a whole role here not just one champion though. Every change gives new experiences and situations to deal with. Change is good ! It's exciting ! Keeping the game fresh is very important it keeps people on there toes. We as humans are always resistant to new things but I feel we should welcome it . On the point of ryze we all know he is a tricky cookie to balance correctly they want to maintain his original theme and abilities while making him a viable not overpowered option.

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