@Riot is a detailed post about Damage Creep, TTK, Snowball and Game Length too much to ask?

Holgranth·Jul 16, 2018·315 votes·25,231 views

Doublelift makes a video on patch cycles and Riot jumps in with a 1750ish word essay explaining their position. Damage creep, Time to Kill and Game Length are hot button topics for a year and crickets.

Why can't we get some communication from the top about why Riot is fine with leaving damage so high, games so short and durability so unrewarding?

It is a massive shift from the original design of league and we deserve some answers.

106 Comments

RaiyzaJul 16, 201874 votes

I understand the desire to make games less of a drag and faster, but that kills what made league so special back in earlier seasons.

Wait for it.....

STRATEGY AND COMEBACKS.

These are gone, or at the very least rare. Games are one-sided these days. The biggest issue? Champion and Item damage is too high, and Objectives are way too easy to take. Herald is a joke. Towers are jokes. It's just not as fun as it used to be.

ZackTheWaffleManJul 16, 20184 votes

They are definitely rare, but they certainly happen. Had a major comeback the other day via superior macroplay (I think.)

RaiyzaJul 16, 201824 votes

They can ALWAYS be done. The issue is, the way the game is now, it takes so much more time to make these comebacks happen. Since we have first tower blood and Herald, teams get gold in much faster rates. So the team that falls behind, falls behind at faster rates increasing the amount of gold that they need to catch up.

Games do not last long enough to make it happen. 5k gold up at 20 minutes? Yeah game is over.

Slice n Dice emJul 17, 20189 votes

There is no strategy/comeback any more, when bronze games on average take 30 mins and challenger games take 28 mins, it clearly shows one who gets ahead finishes the game. In season 5 or before there was a difference of about 6 to 7 mins between challengers and bronze game times. People in bronze didn't knew how to close out the games because back then it was more strategic, now it doesn't matter. If you are ahead all you have to do now is just 5 man ARAM mid or any lane.

My issue with the game currently is not champion pool or meta or adc nerfs or whatever. My issue is the game times, comeback and objectives being too easy to take with out any risks involved. The baron damage buff's were a step in a right direction but they reverted it. Riot doesn't care want to address these issue because they want the game times to be lower, less strategic so that it would appeal to casuals more. I just wish they didn't destroy the SR maps core, the things which I stated are the SR map's core. The casuals already have ARAM map. They could have made more modification of ARAM to appeal to them even more. Or bring dominion back or any other map along with improvements which appeals to casuals more.

iamsmurfing0101Jul 17, 20184 votes

On top of everything, they introduced Herald who oneshots towers. There was numerous times my or enemy team takes herald and destroys 3 towers + inhibitor with it at 12 minute mark.

RaiyzaJul 17, 20184 votes

The worst problem about herald, it can be solo'd at level 4.

That's the worst about it. Herald should be an objective that should be timed correctly so that at least TWO members take it down. Not one.

iamsmurfing0101Jul 17, 201815 votes

The only reason i started to play League instead of other fast paced action games is because League had 3 slow phases i loved. There was early laning phase where you actually lane vs opponent, trade,farm and buy items building for your mid game. The freezing under tower was an actual thing back then. Then we had mid game where some of us are still in lane and some of us who destroyed tower can group and help pressure other lanes. Then last but not least we had late game where we group up as 5 and go take objectives or make huge fights that will most likely decide the game (siege,etc). Towers used to actually take time to destroy,they dealt damage so early--mid dives were much much harder to pull off. Right now all of that i said is opposite. We have no laning phase,towers can die at 5 minute mark,junglers gank at level 2 and camp one lane being unpunished. Everyone can oneshot everyone,damage is too high to react to anything, its so fast paced and snowbally that everyone is playing assassins, there is no scaling into late game because games are decided at 10 minute mark and from that point its just one team waiting 5-10 more minutes to FF and other running around taking everything with 12/2 zed/talon in their team.

FilDaFunkJul 17, 20188 votes

Hmm... League isn't a strategy game anymore, is it?

Sex Crazed EveJul 16, 201844 votes

People actually need to upvote this

Nea104Jul 16, 201838 votes

Novemeber 2017 ---> July 2018. Not a single message about, and they just kept doing worse.

OVER 7 MONTHS. It's just a joke, now :D

THE RlVER KlNGJul 16, 201816 votes

this has been happening since the introduction of keystones with preseason to season 6

season 5 was the last good season of league of legends

KeevalroyJul 17, 20185 votes

We saw it coming at the reveal. We tried for 2 and a half years to reason with them. We continued to show evidence of powercreep from before-and-after videos.

"Muh new freedom doe!"

"Muh impactful masteries doe!"

"Muh MeAnInGfUL cHoIcEs doe!"

Uh oh, seems the fog is clearing and people are finally starting to see smudges in the oh so beautiful picture...

iamsmurfing0101Jul 17, 20184 votes

We all know the only reason behind them not talking or doing anything about it is "LCS BIG PLAYS". They want games to be short and full of action and snowball because of their competitive pro scene and viewership.

They think its better for viewers to watch games packed with constant dives,snowball, kills and oneshoting than slow paced strategic games where teams farm early game and then group to fight.

That was the main reason they nerfed towers into the ground and reworked jungle camps to make junglers dive and gank constantly therefore making action constant on the map.

This in theory is better for pro scene and LCS but for us "non pro" solo queue players is far worse since it ruins everything we loved about league.

HeeroTXJul 17, 20184 votes

The ARURF game at Rift Rivals (NA/EU) was EXACTLY what Riot wants. I'm honestly expecting URF to be more of a thing very soon. I want them to re-add it as a game mode even tho I NEVER play it because I DON'T LIKE it, but ideally the regular game mode can go back to what it should be. Because URF would give them the viewing experience they think they want.

Sex Crazed EveJul 16, 201834 votes

This should honestly become a DAILY thread until we get some form of response. I'd settle for a "shut the fuck up" from Riot.

HolgranthJul 16, 201815 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sèx Crazed Eve,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UJGbtPjE,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2018-07-16T17:57:50.163+0000)

This should honestly become a DAILY thread until we get some form of response. I'd settle for a "shut the fuck up" from Riot.

I am considering your suggestion.

TheSingularityJul 16, 201811 votes

Do it. Will upvote every day without fail

GarySeagullJul 17, 20183 votes

Agreed, do it. Didn't overwatch forums do something similar over the summer skins in season 1? I think it got to like thread number 40, each one had the max limit of 1000 posts so they kept on having to make a new thread.

UnknownTerritoryJul 16, 201822 votes

Im done. They will never going to fix this game

MarothennanJul 16, 201820 votes

Stop bullying the small indie company

Bob the ToastrJul 16, 20189 votes

~~small indie company~~ sMaLL iNdiE cOMpAnY

FTFY

rtbf225618241Jul 16, 201818 votes

Because they cannot make any valid excuses for this other than "We have a new design philosophy now." which would basically be the equivalent of admitting that they have no integrity in their work ethics and a ton of players would feel betrayed by it.

They won't respond without using charming words and jokes and complicated honey talk to tone down the damage the balance team has been causing to the game for years because they can't just go "Nope, we're now on the side of flashier plays, tower diving with impunity and cashing in on Esports primarily. You all knew this was coming so quit your complaining!".

ResolutionJul 16, 201816 votes

MOBA's are dying off in North America, and the target markets now in Asia. You got to remember that we are now the minority in where the games progressing because of that.

A lot of "Game Cafes" sell time, and the shorter game style is more appealing in that setting. You have no idea how much shorter games have benefited players that play the majority of their games on time. In a very competitive region, it makes the grind more tolerable for your $.

On top of that, you got to remember Riot's owned by an Asian company which has that regions "Ideal game design" mentality that very often clashes with NA views. The entire IP system was redesigned into blue essence just so it could be monetized. From there we saw the inclusion of Lootboxes and P2P quests that locked missions behind $. The exclusive skin borders if you throw more money at an already $10 skin is pretty shitty especially when your locking icons behind $50 orb packages...

Plus when games used to last 45 minutes in the LCS and be the best out of 5 - matches could drag on for 4 hours + breaks. They were finding audience members getting burnt out before the conclusion. As much as they love denying changing the game just for the sake of LCS... dozens of quotes and updates contradict that completely.

To sum it up? Sold out - then tried modernizing itself into something it wasn't. Somewhere along the way, it lost what made League great. For Riot to openly discuss that their entire core game experience is currently unenjoyable would just paint a picture of their failed vision. Most of the boards want a new development team to save the game... and that'd just paint targets on whatever developer tried defending it. Look at CertainlyT everytime his ideas go public...

Vah MedohJul 16, 20185 votes

Yeah, money can buy it all since it's creation, even when they worked hard for being unique, to listen to their community... Oh look, a bag full of $ for betraying the principles I did for the game, all yours, do what you want

LegitBusinessmanJul 17, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vah Medoh,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UJGbtPjE,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2018-07-16T21:48:03.918+0000)

Yeah, money can buy it all since it's creation, even when they worked hard for being unique, to listen to their community... Oh look, a bag full of $ for betraying the principles I did for the game, all yours, do what you want

I wish this was emphasized more. Riot has openly stated their own design philosophies many times, and to watch them in one season ignore them in multiple ways, and then not respond to the communities inquiries is strange.

La BelloJul 16, 201813 votes

games so short

RIOT actually WANT this. their consensus is that it makes LoL easier to fit into your lifestyle(people who play from Internet Cafe's for instance). They took a note or two from heroes of the storm in that they also want LoL to be accessible casually (quick fast games and easy to get into).

Damage creep and Time to Kill was probably an oversight and the product of nonstop buffs and changes to the system but im sure they'll give you some "dealing high damage is parallel to quicker games " yadda yadda spiel. summoner 14 for instance got buffed damage because Riot felt it wasn't strong enough of an option to contend with the other runes esp Teleport. item 3147 is riot attempting to give Assassins a "spike" item that they feel good about rushing/completeing item 3095 is Riots answer to the infamous "I build crit but I never crit" conundrum. giving the class a guaranteed crit that scales off attack speed and damage scales with more crit.

none of these things were added with the specific aim at getting shorter games but it pretty much led to them inadvertently . Death by a thousand cuts as they say.

NOW the big changes that specifically led to a quicker game on purpose would be the Baron and Tower HP changes In the past Riot specifically said that if you stomp the enemy team and get baron by 20 you SHOULD be able to end there and they dont want players to have to sit and play drawn out losses (this is also why Early Surrender Vote was added) to a lesser extent it was believed this was also a big problem in proplay back then when the average game was 30~50 minutes and it was Best of 3's. Riot says comebacks would still be possible but they would be more rare was pretty much the vibe they sang.

EDIT: you cant just downvote me because you dont like the answer [zombie-brand-facepalm] . thats not really how you are supposed to use the system. go find a Ghostcrawler and downvote him.

remakoroJul 16, 201828 votes

they actually WANT this. makes LoL easier to fit into your lifestyle. They took a note or two from heroes of the storm in that they also want LoL to be accessible casually (quick fast games and easy to get into).

Nice idea. Taking notes from Moba that dies days after being born.

AugustHeatHazeJul 16, 20182 votes

er its still doing stuff and has a lot of cool mechanics and ideas that could be incorporated into league

remakoroJul 16, 20185 votes

Many games have lots of cool mechanics that could be incorporated into league. But there are things that you should copy and things that you should not. Even indie games made by monkey, cat and 2 parrots might have cool mechanics that can be jammed into the league. But should you do that?

PaladinNOJul 16, 20189 votes

Nice idea. Taking notes from Moba that dies days after being born.

Googling that statement to get something more solid gave me a massive deja vu:

I just wanted to quote him and get some more exposure for this failed update where Blizzard made changes simply for the sake of changing them resulting in garbage gameplay.

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/heroes/topic/20760686311

"changes simply for the sake of changing them resulting in garbage gameplay" - that does indeed sound incredibly familiar.

I dread the thought of me actually almost hopping over to that game...

Sire HippingtonJul 16, 201818 votes

They took a note or two from heroes of the storm in that they also want LoL to be accessible casually

Why abandon your niche to expand into an already occupied one? Also, HotS is designed for short games from the scratch, lol was designed for 40+min games in it's core, so forceing short game times onto that design is bound to fail one way or another But mostly, HotS has WAY lower damage compared to durabillity/sustain and yet their games are still shorter than lol, so the curren damagecreeped shitfest is mostly riot failing or intending to have a cod-moba rather than a neccesity for shorter games.

xXRaichopXxJul 16, 20189 votes

The balance team is such a fucking joke at this point, it's like they don't care anymore

GarySeagullJul 17, 20183 votes

When you see Dr.Mundo doing as much damage as Zed there is obviously something wrong at the basic level of Game design.

Whether or not it's intentional is yet to be seen. If not, Riots balance team are a bunch of inbreds and I could literally do their job blindfolded... It's just basic 101 design fails.

l MrD lJul 16, 20187 votes

Yeh i want answers too even if it is for LCS to have high damage id rather see another play like fakers zed vs zed outplay than a simple Wukong building duskblade then proceeding to just E Q and if not dead press R .....

Surely outplays are more exciting than just a simple kill .....

SenorBobbersJul 17, 20186 votes

I ask about the damage creep topic every time there's a new post in the Dev Corner, never get a response except the downvotes from the casuals who think the game is perfect and flawless

Radiant WukongJul 16, 20185 votes

I think they're trying to compete with Overwatch and Fortnite.

iamsmurfing0101Jul 17, 20184 votes

If by competing with them you have to make games fast paced,one sided,snowbally,diving,oneshoting stomps. Than its the wrong way to compete with them.

Those 2 games are totally different genres,people who LOVE League do not want the game to become dumbed down , fast paced version where you can destroy towers at 5 minute mark without taking any damage while diving the same. We actually want League to be what it was back in earlier seasons aka until season 5 from where they ruined the game with every update slowly killing it for us veterans.

ModCaptainMårvelousJul 17, 20185 votes

Doublelift makes a video on patch cycles and Riot jumps in with a 1750ish word essay explaining their position. Damage creep, Time to Kill and Game Length are hot button topics for a year and crickets.

Because they've mostly been boards topics, not widespread on reddit, twitter or otherwise. Hell, I still don't often see these posts on reddit.

In addition, look at the quality of Doublelift's video. He's well-spoken, provides points as to why he thinks something is bad and shared it in a way that started a discussion and created a viral video that spread across the league community. Conversely, most posts about the above topics are "GAME TOO FAST DAMAGE TOO HIGH RIOT KILL THYSELVES AND REVERT GAME BEFORE KILL TY"

IMO: If you want a good discussion on the topic, make the post and start spreading it around. See how the community feels. Put your words into a format that's more digestable than a wall-of-text post. etc. The more attention it gets and the more eyes on it, the less likely Riot can ignore it without ignoring something.

The Bad TouchJul 17, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Because they've mostly been boards topics, not widespread on reddit, twitter or otherwise. Hell, I still don't often see these posts on reddit.

In addition, look at the quality of Doublelift's video. He's well-spoken, provides points as to why he thinks something is bad and shared it in a way that started a discussion and created a viral video that spread across the league community. Conversely, most posts about the above topics are "GAME TOO FAST DAMAGE TOO HIGH RIOT KILL THYSELVES AND REVERT GAME BEFORE KILL TY"

IMO: If you want a good discussion on the topic, make the post and start spreading it around. See how the community feels. Put your words into a format that's more digestable than a wall-of-text post. etc. The more attention it gets and the more eyes on it, the less likely Riot can ignore it without ignoring something.

Conversely, most posts about the above topics are "GAME TOO FAST DAMAGE TOO HIGH RIOT KILL THYSELVES AND REVERT GAME BEFORE KILL TY"

That's because that's how most of us feel bub....

Revert every change made after season 5.... and go from there.

NONE of it has been good. Including this buggy ass new client and voice chat I've never seen used.

And seriously... you are on the LoL boards telling us to go QQ on twitter and reddit for RIOT to listen to us? What is the company ran by... monkeys?

ModCaptainMårvelousJul 17, 20182 votes

That's because that's how most of us feel bub....

And that makes it ok? DL apparently is disappointed/frustrated with an aspect of League yet can articulate his disappointment in a thoughtful and smart way, so why can't we? People are more willing to listen if it's not just inane ranting and harsh words, you know.

Revert every change made after season 5.... and go from there.

It also helps to have a realistic change. Again, Doublelift's video: "I think Riot should do xyz abc". Not once did he suggest mass reverts or anything. Again, ties back into getting people to listen: It'll spread wider if you have a more concrete solution that makes sense to do.

And seriously... you are on the LoL boards telling us to go QQ on twitter and reddit for RIOT to listen to us? What is the company ran by... monkeys?

Pssssst. Boards is small. So is Reddit. DL's video got widespread because it got noticed on a variety of platforms and got shared around the community on a variety of places. If you're only selling your wares in one store, you're not going to hit a mainstream audience.

Anyways, this post sums up basically why DL's video was successful and the average board post isn't: Clear, concise arguments. Thoughtful solutions that aren't calls for mass reverts and understanding that widespread viewership leads to more discussion about the topic. If you truly think your idea for getting things looked at is right, I suggest you step back and consider the size of boards and the impact our posts truly have in the community on a global level.

Tundra HunterJul 17, 20184 votes

Sad story:

I was in one rare long (platinum ranked) game the other day (about 40 min in) and the game was really close and basically the team winning the next team fight or two would win the game.

Well one guy literally got bored and went AFK because to him the game was becoming too long.

So... apparently some people want every game to ff15, whether they ff or enemy team ff they don't care but they want games to be as short as possible =(

Personally, the longer a game is, the more I love it. I am fine with 60 minutes games.

AkumuJul 18, 20184 votes

I bet they will just continue to be silent. Apparently cant even have a discussion.

JanakinJul 16, 20181 votes

Doesn't this answer your question? https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/2pvn0ldJ-a-response-to-doublelift-on-a-constantly-evolving-game

(I didn't read it but it seems like the answers you are looking for)

Sex Crazed EveJul 16, 20189 votes

Is it so bad to actually have a definitive statement about it from the creators of the game?

JanakinJul 16, 20181 votes

And ghostcrawler isn't?

Sex Crazed EveJul 16, 20187 votes

That's just on change in general man

Sex Crazed EveJul 16, 20182 votes

I get what you're saying. They're working hard to move the game in some direction but not everyone is happy about the direction it's going. I'm sure I'm not alone when I'd like to hear something from them about this.

Also, GC's post was really good. I just read it.

JanakinJul 16, 20182 votes

Seeing the amount of downvotes on my posts makes me wonder whether people understood it as me defending riot and the direction the game is moving to ... Which would be really far from truth lol

Sex Crazed EveJul 16, 20181 votes

that's the nature of gameplay. You either agree with the popular opinion or just get downvoted. unlucky

JanakinJul 16, 20182 votes

I just saw a post complaining about riot giving no answers to the current state of the game. I remembered, that I saw a post written by GC giving answers to doublelift's points, which is namely what this post mentioned. So I provided link, hoping that it is what author was looking for. I showed no opinion :D.

(Though I am one of the people who absolutely hate the state of the game, and am on verge of qutting league for good)

EDIT: Also I'm pretty sure the original post was edited...