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A Cassiopeia 4.22 To-Do List...or atleast a list of reminders for Stashu

5G8Nri0B54··44 votes·4,348 views

Greetings and salutations! 4.21's been out for quite a while now. Feedback's been given. Many suggestions been given. And already I'm hoping beyond hope that she will be overhauled by the next patch or two because...apparently her being "viable" or not wasn't exactly the problem with her rework.

There has been dozens of Cassiopeia threads, and as you've probably noticed, they all address different things! So is it because we Cassiopeia players can not agree on what she needs? Not entirely. But rather there's just so much problems in her rework that I feel it would be really helpful to just compile them all in one single list.

I know you are probably looking things up already, and I know you yourself are aware of a few of these points. HOWEVER, with how many problems are loaded in this one rework, I feel that this will be a nice reminder of the many problems that should probably be addressed! (I am also aware that some of the problems listed may in fact be causing the other problems too, ie - 2+3, 6+7+8, etc.)

TL;DR -

  1. You need to do something to Cassiopeia so that she isn't the League's AP Rambo
  2. Q and W SHOULD NOT REQUIRE HER E TO DO HIGH DAMAGE!!!!!!!!!!!
  3. Building up on the previous point, she still have exclusively a single range and pattern, and that is of a short-ranged ranged all-in mano-a-mano style
  4. Q's Cooldown being so much higher than the Poison's duration feels HORRIBLE
  5. Cursor detection of poisoned vs. un-poisoned unit can be a real bitch in a messy fight
  6. Her Passive fails in both Thematic Consistency AND Gameplay
  7. Smooth out her power-curve so that she is just like pre-rework Cassiopeia please
  8. Building upon THAT note, Cassiopeia is unplayable in ARAM, Dom, and TT
  9. "throw away the entire rework and revert her to old Cass!"
  10. her ability to maintain mana only works while farming, but in a teamfight, just killing a frontliner can wear you out
  11. ALL poison indicators (not just Cass) should be a little more clearer than just a tiny purple puff

To be honest, I wouldn't weep if her totally engaging gameplay of "spamming a boring point and click-nuke"-gameplay was replaced by something more appropriate, but you seem to be deadset on making her Rambo. I've suggested a less than elegant compromise to make her into a Mutalisk that let's you keep Cassiopeia into the Stallone-with-Boobs that your rework wants her to be, but in the end it's really just a compromise. Either way,** let's actually give Cassiopeia a kit that fits her as a poison mage shall we?**

  • Q and W SHOULD NOT REQUIRE HER E TO DO HIGH DAMAGE!!!!!!!!!!!

The caps and 11 exclamation points are there for emphasis. But to further elaborate, why is the Poison in a Poison Mage so shit? Why is the lion's share of a Poison Mage's DPS coming from the blacksheep ability?

  • Building up on the previous point, she still have exclusively a single range and pattern, and that is of a short-ranged ranged all-in mano-a-mano style

I should not have to elaborate on why this is a pattern. But I'll just leave this wordy explanation here. Simply put, it's a failure of archetype expression. Yes, nothing about Poison exclusively dictates one needs any specific range or number of enemies hit, however, archetype-expression.

  • Q's Cooldown being so much higher than the Poison's duration feels HORRIBLE

It should be possible to keep an enemy champion poisoned PERMANENTLY with a bit of effort. There is something seriously wrong with Teemo and Singed does a better job poisoning the enemy than League's Poison Mage

  • Cursor detection of poisoned vs. un-poisoned unit can be a real bitch in a messy fight

Explained in little more detail half-way through this post. TL;DR - not everyone's going to be poisoned, now have fun if the un-poisoned one is dry-humping the poisoned one. Make no mistake, this has been an issue FROM THE BEGINNING. But just because she is piled on with a hundred new problems doesn't mean her old problems shouldn't be looked at. Why does Cassiopeia get screwed by watching un-infect enemy champions humping infected ones?

You acknowledge her Passive is a problem. You even acknowledge it's there to gate her progression, that in itself leaves a sour taste already. How big a problem you think it is compared to all the rest of us I have no idea. In the end, Shackles are only okay when appropriate. Building on her Passive's problem...

  • Smooth out her power-curve so that she is just like pre-rework Cassiopeia please

In all my 4.21 Cassiopeia games, either my enemies surrendered too soon, or my own teammates surrendered too soon. But it f-ing sucks knowing that I will be going through such a goddamn chore of playing Cassiopeia early-mid game only to correctly predict that I will never ever enjoy the fruit of all that damn work to reach that hyper-carry state. Cassiopeia should never EVER in anyway have any hint of a hyper-carry on her.

  • Building upon THAT note, Cassiopeia is unplayable in ARAM, Dom, and TT

This requires no explanation.

  • "throw away the entire rework and revert her to old Cass!"

Yeah I highly doubt you'd do that. However, I will point out the desire to have old Cass back is because unlike this rework, old Cass filled a niche that only HER and ONLY HER could fullfill. She had excellent AoE DoT that made her great in a siege and extended stare-downs. Her Q and W, her wave clear, her AoE DoT, her well-balanced power curve. THAT felt like a great Poison Mage. Her E then was what she used if someone jumps onto her.

  • her ability to maintain mana only works while farming, but in a teamfight, just killing Shyvana can wear you out

Perhaps...maybe...give Cassiopeia an Athene's like effect when she gets a kill or assist? Or something akin to Swain's Passive when killing a champion?

  • ALL poison indicators (not just Cass) should be a little more clearer than just a tiny purple puff

This should have been done when she got her first VU, let alone her recent second VU...

So there you have it. 11 things that could be addressed either by 4.22, or a patch or so afterwards. Or eventually, but NOT eventually(tm). The last thing we want is for another Olaf and Yorick where mess around with a champion, promise to actually fix said champion, and just forget about them.

I know you said you are not done with her even after 4.21. However, many of us fear you may just be the Harbinger of Olaf v2.0

PS -feel free to link your own threads, complaints, feedbacks etc. I'll add em somewhere when I have time

107 Comments

yellowbricks11 votes

Sad to see Stockholm Syndrome setting in for some resident Cass players, at this rate, nothing is going to be done and we're going to be stuck with the shitty rework version forever.

Thryale3 votes

Wouldn't quite call it stockholm syndrome, as I will never be in full support of it. But it's more like we're just getting really tired and just plain exasperated with the whole thing, and fighting the good fight just consumes so much that at a point you don't have anything left to burn. :(

Tendrian8 votes
  • buff Q and W back to pre rework values
  • nerf E dmg accordingly, remove silly poison amp and lifesteal
  • completely delete the passive and introduce a new one

DONE

5G8Nri0B547 votes
  • keep the much requested QoL fixes such as E-poison detection and R detection fixes that's been requested and actually came along with the rework...packaged with the unwanted mess
Tendrian5 votes

keep the much requested QoL fixes such as E-poison detection and R detection fixes that's been requested and actually came along with the rework...packaged with the unwanted mess

If possible. If not, fuck them, I'd still prefer the old numbers without QoL over what is on live.

Fluppets4 votes

{quoted}

If possible. If not, fuck them, I'd still prefer the old numbers without QoL over what is on live.

I am sorry, but please leave. Just... leave.

It's obvious you're just here to complain and have never really played Cassiopeia, her QoL fixes were HUUUUGe and were the one and only thing keeping her down. Nobody that has really played Cassiopeia before her QoL fixes would wish a revert to before the QoL fixes, you're either stupid or lying.

If they had given her QoL fixes without reworking her she would've been extremely Overpowered.

chumbler8 votes

{quoted}

If they had given her QoL fixes without reworking her she would've been extremely Overpowered.

Hahahahaha no.

Tendrian5 votes

If they had given her QoL fixes without reworking her she would've been extremely Overpowered.

What? That's exactly what I was saying in the post you quoted. If old Cass would prove to be too strong with the QoL fixes, they should remove them. I prefer clunky but fun old Cass over all around shitty new Cass from a gameplay perspective. I don't care too much if she ends up op/up, I just want her old play pattern back.

That you are ranting at me about her power with/without the fixes shows that you have no reading comprehension and completely missed the point of the discussion.

Neo Cyrus8 votes

My suggestion was like one of your other threads; allow different paths to let the player choose which style he prefers. Don't lock us into one style. The thread elaborated more: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/MvhWRwGL-stashu-thematic-changes-for-cassiopeia

Yes, some of us like AP Rambo, and late game scaling, even though we all pretty much universally hate the passive. But I think we can all agree the only solution everyone will be happy with is being given a choice.

Chortle2 votes

I think this is the only option that will satisfy both parties (poison mage and twin fang fantasies).

I don't see this being the outcome though :[

Tapu Fini7 votes

Surprise surprise, Stashu's MIA again.

Saevum4 votes

{quoted}

Surprise surprise, Stashu's MIA again.

item 2044

Saianna6 votes

So.. i heard Riot boasts on how great their communication with playerbase is. For every 1 positive Cass feedback (she's good) we get about 20 negative ones (she's bad).

So.. where's communication? I've seen red post maybe twice in Cass rework (rant) thread. And that wasn't even stashu. OK. Stashu did show up once, but he totally neglected main thread.

So, again, where's communication?

IronChefBoyardee1 votes

Stashu has shown up on damn near every thread talking about Cass. It's not his fault if 5 people make 10 threads each and he can't get to every one because they all say the same thing.

Saianna6 votes

So what if he came to every thread (which i didn't see) if he didn't respond to players feedback.

He just keept talking on "how awesome new cass is/will be"

Here how it really should look like: -Do you guys like new cass? (Stashu) -no, not really (Players) -then what do you guys suggest (S) -buff this, nerf that, change that (P) -Allright, gimme 2-3 weeks (S) 3 weeks later

  • Is this rework ok now? (S) -yup, thanks (P)

OR!

-Ok guys, i've done cass rework, i'll add pool. Pool:

Do you want this rework of cass?

1 yes 2 no 3 yes but change x 4 no, but keep x from her reworked kit.

2 most easy solutions.

And what we get? This: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/EgE2J6xM-the-cassiopeia-rework-in-a-nutshellvisual

IronChefBoyardee2 votes

You act like that's the only thread he's replied to. Every time a new patch releases, he gets on here and talks to you guys on at least one thread about the new patch update. There has been so much back and forth on this and you guys refuse to move on anything. Old Cass is not coming back, but Stashu does listen to people who aren't just whining. Listening does not mean he will revert or change anything based on your whims, but he at least listens to what players talk about and tries to implement a compromise. Don't vilify him for something he hasn't done.

Saianna6 votes

So if i disagree = i'm whining?

Get off your high horse.

tries to implement a compromise?

Then he'd stop forcing all her kits focus on E.

What a moron.

IronChefBoyardee1 votes

Yes, at this point you are just whining. You know Stashu has had plenty of discussions with you guys, the few players who didn't play Cass by maxing E, and you focus on the one thread that was made as more or less a light-hearted joke during the discussion and pretend like he hasn't been discussing Cass for the better part of 2 months. At this point, you're whining.

Orbv6 votes

He hasn't been discussing this for the better part of 2 months....

He has maybe 22 replies in 3 months. That's less than a response a week...

It's really annoying to hear people whine that the ones playing "Gas Cass" are a minority when the champion's designer focused his design entirely on her Poisons. Brackhar created some of the best combination champions in the game. He admitted to Twin Fang being a black sheep. How many players actually knew that?

xJLx MCHammer5 votes

BUILD TEARS BUILD Athene Get blue

So many dang options about her mana

Kowe The Ewok20 votes

Or you simply build a RoA.

Btw. Athene is the worst thing you can ever purchase on Cassiopeia. High cost and a shitload of wasted stats.

LongFur Fox5 votes

A lot of your points are a bit vague and some of them are most likely only there because you hate the rework (which while understandable is not an opinion i agree with). So i thought i should do a rundown of it to show where i think the standpoint is for people who mostly like her rework

-You need to do something to Cassiopeia so that she isn't the League's AP Rambo

Giving her slightly more options for poke or loading some utility into her poisons would be enough for me. To me the iconic part of cassi has always been her e spam even though it does not fit very well thematically.

-Q and W SHOULD NOT REQUIRE HER E TO DO HIGH DAMAGE!!!!!!!!!!!

Bad wording mostly here. I think you should rephrase it to "Q and W SHOULD NOT only be there for HER E TO DO HIGH DAMAGE!!!!!!!!!!!". Her e relying on her q and w to do high damage is perfectly fine and was the case even pre rework.

-Building up on the previous point, she still have exclusively a single range and pattern, and that is of a short-ranged ranged all-in mano-a-mano style

Loading a bit more damage into her poisons would fix this even if only slightly. I have never been to huge a fan of the poke game she did before. I would much rather have her being able to get in and out of that "short range" in a safer way.

-Q's Cooldown being so much higher than the Poison's duration feels HORRIBLE

I agree on this wholeheartedly but i think this will disappear if the cdr from her passive gets removed. (which it hopefully will).

-Cursor detection of poisoned vs. un-poisoned unit can be a real bitch in a messy fight

-Her Passive fails in both Thematic Consistency AND Gameplay -Smooth out her power-curve so that she is just like pre-rework Cassiopeia please -Building upon THAT note, Cassiopeia is unplayable in ARAM, Dom, and TT

All of these has been said many times i guess we will get it someday. That said it should not be hard to balance her for other game modes after we arrive at an end point for SR

-"throw away the entire rework and revert her to old Cass!"

If your post had not contained something like this i might just have viewed it positively. This statement has been said to many times in random situations that it only detracts from any points you are otherwise making. Ohh and yes i disagree with it since i like the QoL buff her e got with the rework (no that QoL buff was a huge buff we can't scrap it all and keep the buff)

-her ability to maintain mana only works while farming, but in a teamfight, just killing a frontliner can wear you out

I have never encountered in this in situations beside where i was my teams only source of damage. That said some mana refund on hitting an enemy champion would go a long way even for her lane (though this might make her slightly op)

-ALL poison indicators (not just Cass) should be a little more clearer than just a tiny purple puff

Well you stated the poison indicator problem before.

Now i do realize a said to buff certain things throughout this but since cassi is certainly viable right now those buffs need to be accompanied by nerfs. Those nerfs as i see it would mainly come from scrapping her passive and remaking it into something slightly less powerful.

5G8Nri0B548 votes

If your post had not contained something like this i might just have viewed it positively. This statement has been said to many times in random situations that it only detracts from any points you are otherwise making. Ohh and yes i disagree with it since i like the QoL buff her e got with the rework (no that QoL buff was a huge buff we can't scrap it all and keep the buff)

Yeah I was kinda hoping that the fact that there are quotations marks around that line and the further explanation would have clued you in already...

The option to revert the entire thing has sailed a long time ago sadly. However if there is one thing to take away from the entire debacle, it's that the old Cassiopeia fullfilled a niche in a way that only she could. Rather than solely satisfying the crowd who played her like Rambo, Riot should put some thought and effort into making her fullfill the the pattern that thematically fits her as well, which was something the old Cass was capable of doing even if flawed.

Her e relying on her q and w to do high damage is perfectly fine and was the case even pre rework.

However, back then it was more of an icing on top since it wasn't something that's always possible. If, say, Nocturne jumps onto you, yeah it's something for her to do while trying to GTFO. But in the current meta against the likes of either high range or high mobility mids, often times you're not going to land a terrible large number of E's down, or depending on the champion, any at all. However her Q was plenty satisfying.

The main thing to remember pre-rework was that her Q and W were plenty strong when you add their numbers up in a teamfight. And not just that, it offered a decent fallback pattern if E-spamming just wasn't an option for whatever reason.

Now...it's shit. Insultingly low ratios, and somehow less impressive a poison than the poisons of champions who aren't even THE Poison Mage of the game.

All of these has been said many times i guess we will get it someday.

My worry is that "someday" lies in the same territory as Olaf and Yorick's "someday".

Now i do realize a said to buff certain things throughout this but since cassi is certainly viable right now those buffs need to be accompanied by nerfs.

A buff to one area entails a nerf to other areas. And I make no attempt to hide my contempt about how lopsided her kit is thanks to the rework. I'm sure Stashu can easily buff her Q and W up if a certain skill can afford to get a nerf...or ten.

LongFur Fox1 votes

However, back then it was more of an icing on top since it wasn't something that's always possible. If, say, Nocturne jumps onto you, yeah it's something for her to do while trying to GTFO. But in the current meta against the likes of either high range or high mobility mids, often times you're not going to land a terrible large number of E's down, or depending on the champion, any at all. However her Q was plenty satisfying.

The main thing to remember pre-rework was that her Q and W were plenty strong when you add their numbers up in a teamfight. And not just that, it offered a decent fallback pattern if E-spamming just wasn't an option for whatever reason.

Now...it's shit. Insultingly low ratios, and somehow less impressive a poison than the poisons of champions who aren't even THE Poison Mage of the game.

In all in situations you are just as reliable on hitting q/w as before the rework. In both cases you do no damage if you don't hit them. Same goes for most teamfight situations. Power wise the biggest change as i see it is that she has considerably less poke and a better all in. This then has had the effect that her lane suffered. A lot. However from what i have seen she can still bully in lane she is just less safe and it takes more skill. On the "icing on the cake" metaphor then i have always seen it as just a slightly sub optimal way to play her. Sure you can chose to only use it when someone all ins you but every time i watch old videos of diamond+ players they always used e a lot even in team fights.

A buff to one area entails a nerf to other areas. And I make no attempt to hide my contempt about how lopsided her kit is thanks to the rework. I'm sure Stashu can easily buff her Q and W up if a certain skill can afford to get a nerf...or ten.

I think this is were most people disagree. I don't see a need to nerf her e. If anything i would like a less dominant passive and then have the power that got freed up applied to her poisons.

5G8Nri0B545 votes

Yeah that wasn't supposed to be a metaphor at all, it's a figure of speech...

As for doing no damage, you really really underestimate the sheer power of those poison abilities constantly applied in an AoE. This is one of the biggest piss-off among the rework, where Stashu decided that it fit Cassiopeia much more for her to zero in and challenge a single target to a mano-a-mano duel rather than gassing the enemy team to death like a Poison Mage should.

Her Passive's issue has little to do with how overloaded her E is, if they remove the Passive, he'd just shoe-horn that random heal into her E without needing to wait for 100 stacks.

In the end, he shoved 99% of her damage onto the one ability of hers that has jack all to do with her identity. The one ability that had nothing to do with what made her fun. In return to overloading that one ability, he took the power out of all her other abilities. And I mean all, because even her R suffered a hefty hit because of her paradigm change.

And in the very end...whether one is slightly stronger than the other or not. There were two ways to play it. The rework is a giant middle-finger to the playerbase of one way just so the player-base of the other way can play their little stacking game. All Stashu's rework has done is create a divide between Cass players who normally didn't give a Twitch's behind that the other side existed.

LongFur Fox1 votes

Yeah that wasn't supposed to be a metaphor at all, it's a figure of speech...

Yeah sorry , sorry English is not exactly my main language. Gonna be some mistakes in there some times. That said the point still stands.

As for doing no damage, you really really underestimate the sheer power of those poison abilities constantly applied in an AoE. This is one of the biggest piss-off among the rework, where Stashu decided that it fit Cassiopeia much more for her to zero in and challenge a single target to a mano-a-mano duel rather than gassing the enemy team to death like a Poison Mage should.

Ohh i know her focus shifted. I just said she did not do any damage if her q and w did not hit. She has the same conditions for damage (except range) as she did before the main difference is to how many and how it is applied.

Her Passive's issue has little to do with how overloaded her E is, if they remove the Passive, he'd just shoe-horn that random heal into her E without needing to wait for 100 stacks.

In the end, he shoved 99% of her damage onto the one ability of hers that has jack all to do with her identity. The one ability that had nothing to do with what made her fun. In return to overloading that one ability, he took the power out of all her other abilities. And I mean all, because even her R suffered a hefty hit because of her paradigm change.

I would not exactly say that her e is overloaded in itself. Especially if she looses the ap bonus from her passive. Now if we say that her e is too powerful compared to her other abilities then i would agree but to me the e is fine but having a passive that takes up equally much power as her e is the main thing holding her back.

And in the very end...whether one is slightly stronger than the other or not. There were two ways to play it. The rework is a giant middle-finger to the playerbase of one way just so the player-base of the other way can play their little stacking game. All Stashu's rework has done is create a divide between Cass players who normally didn't give a Twitch's behind that the other side existed.

Agreed. I would like to see her q+w playstyle in a better spot but the problem is that design and counterplay wise it is not good to have a champion who can lane bully via poke and then also have a beast all in. I do realize there is counterplay in ganks and such but to riot that is obviously not enough. If you really wanna see her as a lane bully you got to figure out a way for her to be so in a healthy way and not a "remove her e" as that will just end up having the other half of cassi's player base whine.

5G8Nri0B543 votes

Agreed. I would like to see her q+w playstyle in a better spot but the problem is that design and counterplay wise it is not good to have a champion who can lane bully via poke and then also have a beast all in. I do realize there is counterplay in ganks and such but to riot that is obviously not enough. If you really wanna see her as a lane bully you got to figure out a way for her to be so in a healthy way and not a "remove her e" as that will just end up having the other half of cassi's player base whine.

Yeah this is why I made this...

It's the final solution, a compromise at most. But a compromise is probably the best thing she will get what with the direction this reworks been going and how large a divide the rework created.

It's far from perfect. But if anyone honestly think this rework is going to be anywhere close to perfect as this stage, if anyone think she will be anywhere close to perfect if you want to also maintain her Rambo-style...

AmazingGoat5 votes

I don't play Cassi, so I can't comment on anything in particular, but i just thought I would mention as an FYI that her win rate at plat+ has spiked in 4.21 from 48% to 53%. Win rate does not mean everything, but such a big spike does suggest that she may have gotten a decently increased power level. My suspicion, based on a lot of the comments I see, is that her new play style just isn't as enjoyable to long time Cassi players. That is something I am very sympathetic to, and I hope you guys are able to convey why you feel like her core identity has been stripped from you.

Good luck!

Neptune5 votes

"B-b-but she feels a niche, she's a late-game hypercarry, she's more relevant to the meta!"

Let me ask you this: when has Riot ever reverted changes on a rework? This doesn't mean number tweaks. When have they ever said "oops, that actually messed up the champ, let's change it back until we get something better".

Never. You know why?

Because a developer is not going to tell his boss that he screwed up, wasted tons of company hours and money, and has decided to simply go back to square one. That's a good way to get replaced.

The truth is, the community doesn't hate every rework. Eve, Skarner, Scion, these all went through with quite minimal complaints. Many who already mained these champs later admitted it was an improvement.

The ones that people were very upset about, for a very long time, were champions like Gangplank or Karma. These characters already had a niche, they had stuff they could do that no other champion could do. Riot decided their playrate was down, and "fixed" them.

Where are they now? Does gangplank have a really unique style now, does he have a core group of devoted fans? Or has he just been homogenized and given enough stat boots so that he can be a mediocre, uninspired swap-out for other popular top champs?

Playrate, playrate, playrate seems to be Riot's bottom line on stuff like this. Perhaps even Stashu understands how he lost the defining aspect of the "poison queen", perhaps he'd undo the changes if he could. But he can't - he can't tell the higher-ups he wasted company time and money, instead he will stat-boost and point to the playrate as "proof" of the updates "success".

The "silent majority" of people who think she's fine were never cass mains, and they will never care about her once unique style. They might play her on and off, because she's just like any other mage. The rest of us can just remember when we actually had a "poison queen".

chumbler5 votes

{quoted}

"B-b-but she feels a niche, she's a late-game hypercarry, she's more relevant to the meta!"

Let me ask you this: when has Riot ever reverted changes on a rework? This doesn't mean number tweaks. When have they ever said "oops, that actually messed up the champ, let's change it back until we get something better".

Never. You know why?

Because a developer is not going to tell his boss that he screwed up, wasted tons of company hours and money, and has decided to simply go back to square one. That's a good way to get replaced.

Continuing to waste company time and money on a boondoggle is way worse than admitting a mistake so that it can be fixed ASAP. In any actually well run company, at any rate. Riot is by most accounts not one of those. Not to mention that the longer this rework doesn't get reverted, the more face Riot loses.

The truth is, the community doesn't hate every rework. Eve, Skarner, Scion, these all went through with quite minimal complaints. Many who already mained these champs later admitted it was an improvement.

Uhh what? People still hate the Skarner rework, and the first one was, until Cassiopeia's, by far the worst remake in Riots long and proud history of terrible remakes. The second one isn't a whole lot better. The Eve changes solved absolutely nothing about her and were a joke after taking 3 years to implement, and the Sion rework made him less effective because that was the intended result.

5G8Nri0B543 votes

One typo.

The "silent majority" of people who think she's fine were never cass mains

You spelt "sheeple" wrong.

I suspect these people were the exact same ones who picked up Cass during the one week she was FOTM after watching better players pick her up.

Tapu Fini4 votes

She's pretty much the AP Urgot of the game now. Like Urgot isn't slated for a rework himself... Why make another one?

IronChefBoyardee1 votes

Urgot is absolutely stated for a rework

Tapu Fini2 votes

Thank you for reiterating.

Yenn4 votes

Focus should be on what's needed to be a competitive pick, not some borderline RP bullshit, which seems to be half this thread (i.e. zomg da poison mage doesn't perma poison!!!!!11!1)

Cass is currently 100% broken in top lane. Any improvements would likely exasperate how broken she is right now, and end in severe nerfs. I'd rather she be left alone, not turned into a broken permanently banned champion.

5G8Nri0B547 votes

ANYTHING can easily be made a competitive pick. Thats an easy task and if that is all that matters, Riot could chug out champions at 4x the rate of S2. A champion in the end should play and feel like said champion. Just as Nautilus should not be an AD Assassin with Lee's mobility.

Saevum6 votes

{quoted}

Focus should be on what's needed to be a competitive pick, not some borderline RP bullshit, which seems to be half this thread (i.e. zomg da poison mage doesn't perma poison!!!!!11!1)

Cass is currently 100% broken in top lane. Any improvements would likely exasperate how broken she is right now, and end in severe nerfs. I'd rather she be left alone, not turned into a broken permanently banned champion.

Dude, any champion with the correct numbers can become "op" or "competitive" as you see/tag them. We, here, are talking about mechanics, gameplay, strategy, theme, identity, growing pace, path choosing, etc. So, you just pointed out something: you just worried about being able to wreck with her or being able to counter her wrecking style, and in both cases, i find your comment irrelevant.

SmokingPuffin1 votes

{quoted}

Dude, any champion with the correct numbers can become "op" or "competitive" as you see/tag them. We, here, are talking about mechanics, gameplay, strategy, theme, identity, growing pace, path choosing, etc. So, you just pointed out something: you just worried about being able to wreck with her or being able to counter her wrecking style, and in both cases, i find your comment irrelevant.

You can make any champion OP. Just add numbers! That's basically Jax's entire kit design, honestly.

You can't make any champion a healthy competitive pick. For example, buffing Garen into competitive play without a rework is just dumb. No fun to watch, no fun to play against. For competitive play, champions have to have clear strengths, clear weaknesses, and interesting play/counterplay patterns.

5G8Nri0B543 votes

Except old Cassiopeia wasn't competitively unhealthy. The rework was just a lazily rushed attempt to change her up because Stashu **didn't understand a thing about Cassiopeia and what made people like her **when he first sent the rework live.

His original rationalization why he made Cassiopeia not do any DoT initially was because he felt Cassiopeia doing DoT will make her step on Brand's toes. He made the poison of the game's sole Poison Mage irrelevant, only slapping in a little poison amplification effect on her already overloaded E after several weeks of people trying to get the message onto him, and even there he screws up by making her E even MORE overloaded than it already was. Unlike other designers, Stashu never started any discussion or threads asking the actual fans of Cassiopeia what they thought and what they wanted her to be before he started doing the rework. Sion Skarner Twitch Viktor etc. all had large threads started by their respective designers to gather data before jumping in, and even THEN there were occasional hiccups. And even now we have threads for Urgot Taric Poppy who have their own respective threads in preparation for their own rework.

Say all you want that it was "impossible" to make pre-rework Cassiopeia competitively healthy. But if that even was the case, there should have been atleast some effort put in to make the champion FUN. The new rework isn't fun. The only people who like the new rework so far have been "Cobra" and "sheeples who started playing her after they saw pros pick her in streams"

Pre-nerf X Cassiopeia's weaknesses were clear and obvious even to Cassiopeia players back then. Zero mobility. Delayed self-peel. She is among the easiest to gank champions in the game. Saying Cassiopeia is unhealthy if viable would be saying Annie, Brand, and Malzahar is toxic to the game if they are competitive...and not as a support.

Her issue was the combination of Q doing damage and E making it impossible to counter-attack was what made her toxic. But let's use one's common sense for a second. There's a dodgeable ability that does respectable damage. And there is a point and click ability that is so powerful that it makes it impossible to get close to her. Said ability also happens to be the poorly designed black sheep of her kit.

What does common sense tell you?

SmokingPuffin1 votes

Except old Cassiopeia wasn't competitively unhealthy.

Yes, she was. Riot left her in purgatory because a balanced Old Cass is completely absurd in lane and useless in teamfights.

Unlike other designers, Stashu never started any discussion or threads asking the actual fans of Cassiopeia what they thought and what they wanted her to be before he started doing the rework.

It's a fair criticism. I'm sure Stashu would do it differently if he had the chance.

Say all you want that it was "impossible" to make pre-rework Cassiopeia competitively healthy. But if that even was the case, there should have been atleast some effort put in to make the champion FUN. The new rework isn't fun.

You can't make this claim. Fun is subjective.

Pre-nerf X Cassiopeia's weaknesses were clear and obvious even to Cassiopeia players back then. Zero mobility. Delayed self-peel. She is among the easiest to gank champions in the game. Saying Cassiopeia is unhealthy if viable would be saying Annie, Brand, and Malzahar is toxic to the game if they are competitive...and not as a support.

You're focused on reasons why Old Cass would be balanced, but healthy is not about balance. You can make Old Cass a 50% win rate champion, but she won't be good for the game. She has most of the same problems Shaco does, only as a laner.

As to the other champions you list here: Annie is fairly okay. She does have some interactivity issues as a mid laner because her damage combo can't reasonably be reacted to. Brand is super healthy. The problem with him is that buffs are hard to do because he already has so much damage, and what he needs is more utility. Malzahar is in purgatory for similar reasons as Old Cass. Oppressive laning, pointless teamfighting.

Her issue was the combination of Q doing damage and E making it impossible to counter-attack was what made her toxic. But let's use one's common sense for a second. There's a dodgeable ability that does respectable damage. And there is a point and click ability that is so powerful that it makes it impossible to get close to her. Said ability also happens to be the poorly designed black sheep of her kit.

What does common sense tell you?

I don't agree that E is the black sheep of her kit. I think it's the most unique and iconic thing she has.

chumbler2 votes

{quoted}

Yes, she was. Riot left her in purgatory because a balanced Old Cass is completely absurd in lane and useless in teamfights.

It's a fair criticism. I'm sure Stashu would do it differently if he had the chance.

You can't make this claim. Fun is subjective.

You're focused on reasons why Old Cass would be balanced, but healthy is not about balance. You can make Old Cass a 50% win rate champion, but she won't be good for the game. She has most of the same problems Shaco does, only as a laner.

As to the other champions you list here: Annie is fairly okay. She does have some interactivity issues as a mid laner because her damage combo can't reasonably be reacted to. Brand is super healthy. The problem with him is that buffs are hard to do because he already has so much damage, and what he needs is more utility. Malzahar is in purgatory for similar reasons as Old Cass. Oppressive laning, pointless teamfighting.

I don't agree that E is the black sheep of her kit. I think it's the most unique and iconic thing she has.

Do you do anything that isn't sucking up to Riot? Pro tip: If you are ever agreeing with Riot on what is "competitively unhealthy", you are almost guaranteed to be wrong.

Basically everything you have posted in this thread is just regurgitating Riot's garbage, and it's just as wrong when you do it as when they do. Also, Cassiopeia's actual designer (you know, the smart one, not this moron stashu) straight up said that her E was the black sheep of her kit. If you also consider it "unique" or "iconic" when it is literally a more tedious autoattack, you're clueless and have nothing worth saying. It is by far her least interesting skill.

Grand Eleven10 votes

{quoted}

Focus should be on what's needed to be a competitive pick, not some borderline RP bullshit, which seems to be half this thread (i.e. zomg da poison mage doesn't perma poison!!!!!11!1)

Then Explain why Sion was rebuilt. Explain that Poppy is up next (even though she was proven completely viable in pro play).

To say theme doesn't matter is just to completely betray your ignorance on the topic of champion design ... in ANY game.

5G8Nri0B547 votes

Explain that Poppy is up next

She nearly won them the game...had their entire team not be so thoroughly outmatched in...everywhere else. Was hoping they'd win atleast that match with Poppy.

But yes. Notice how...

-Taric Poppy and Urgot have threads dedicated for asking feedback and thoughts on what players think they should and want them to be.

-Skarner Sion and Nidalee had a detailed thread where they discussed with players what those champions should be for their respective reworks...and even THEN they weren't always successful, but notice how much closer to the mark it was than Cassiopeia's out of nowhere rework. Even when asking for the playerbase it wasn't a 100% success, what chances did something like Cass' have?

-lastly, notice how Fiora's proposed changes were scrapped and they are thinking over something completely new after enough negative reactions from the Fiora players.

There is much more value in communicating with players before the rework goes live because then they can fix any kinks and hold off on bad ideas. But after it goes live, then it's just a salvage mission.

For Cassiopeia herself, the closest to a request for a rework were just her E's QoL fix where it detects poison upon cast. That was all we requested, nothing more.

Tiowthy3 votes

NEVER GIVE UP! i'm also kinda scared that she'll be nerfed because a pro player would use her and get fed

5G8Nri0B543 votes

And future calls to get her fixed will get mistaken by sheeps who thinks its just Cass mains unhappy their champion got nerfed.....

The biggest fear atm is Riot thinking this rework is in anyway a success and enough poeple going "DURR OMG SHE IS VIABLE/OP NO THEREFORE THE REWORK IS A SUCCESS AND CASS IS TOTALLY FINE" to convince Riot to leave Cassiopeia the way she is or with only minimal change.

Tiowthy2 votes

{quoted}

And future calls to get her fixed will get mistaken by sheeps who thinks its just Cass mains unhappy their champion got nerfed.....

The biggest fear atm is Riot thinking this rework is in anyway a success and enough poeple going "DURR OMG SHE IS VIABLE/OP NO THEREFORE THE REWORK IS A SUCCESS AND CASS IS TOTALLY FINE" to convince Riot to leave Cassiopeia the way she is or with only minimal change.

the thing is that it's hard to know a representative consensus on this rework because it's only the people in the forums who are vocal about it (atleast that I know of)

I mean, he did say something about reading our suggestions and stuff, but when he tests it, does he just test it himself and then send it to pbe? what if the idea he was testing felt off to him, but feel amazing for the majority of the cass players, if they had the chance to try it? On the other hand, sometimes what feels nice for the person could be too op or toxic for the game. But then that would lead to "stashu should've asked what makes cass frustrating to play against and thought about things to be able to balance everything out" and all those other things that rioters usually ask when they want to rework on someone. However, no one's perfect, so there's that as well.

this is so complicated :/

Thryale1 votes

So, I have a radical idea. Since this overloaded E playstyle doesn't seem to be moving anywhere, let's try this:

nerf the cd reset from .5 to .7 (yes, you heard me, I said it was crazy)

and in exchange increase the range on her E to match that of her Q.

BAM!!! Cass can now have her q>ee>q fantasy while staying safe from 80% of the champ roster with those crazy gap closers. (or worse yet, ranged cc that is extremely easy to land, looking at you taric, malz, ryze)

Thoughts?

5G8Nri0B547 votes

That doesn't resolve a single issue in regards to her as a Poison Mage...

Thryale1 votes

I understand that. I was just spit balling with that one.

Honestly, I really don't know what more we can say to riot at this point. Most topics have been thoroughly exhausted with the numerous threads that have been created since the rework, and I'm not entirely confident that continuing to reiterate ourselves is going to get any different results.

I'm on your side as far as the poison mage thing goes, but I guess I'm just getting worn down at this point.

5G8Nri0B543 votes

but I guess I'm just getting worn down at this point.

Yeah I'm starting to suspect this is what Riot's been waiting to happen.

And once all the FOTM sheeps start picking her up once she becomes OP and gets played by a pro, this is the evidence Stashu will provide that his rework of Cassiopeia is totally a "success"

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