Why is it when Riot goes to rework Lee Sin, one of the most broken champs in the game, they cave under fanboy whining and scrap it?
But when they release a Cass rework that's universally despised (with actual real live critique) they slowly raise the middle finger to Cass fans?
The Red Warden4 votesThe reason is simple: LCS big playz by Lee sin make money
12tales1 votesAh, yes. All those people who only watch LCS games with Lee Sin.
I'm sure they're out there somewhere.
The Red Warden1 votesIt is more about the fact that most champions who can make flashy plays some how avoid nerfs while ones who don't usually get nerfed after spring play once in professional levels. (See the Janna nerfs that almost went through, or what happened to Varus)
12tales3 votesIt is more about the fact that most champions who can make flashy plays some how avoid nerfs while ones who don't usually get nerfed after spring play once in professional levels.
LeBlanc got absolutely gutted. Zed was out of competitive viability for months. Nidalee got, like, 70% taken off her Q AD ratio and a huge hit to her AD/AS. Yasuo's been getting nerfed practically every other patch for months. And how long has it been since Riven's been a priority pick?
I see no reason to suspect that flashy champions are getting preferential treatment.
(See the Janna nerfs that almost went through, or what happened to Varus)
I believe Riot's mentioned that they want the PBE to be more experimental and iterative than it has been in the past. I wouldn't read too much into the Janna nerfs.
The Red Warden5 votesYet there still remains the fact that these nerfs took multiple times the amount of time it would have taken for other champions to receive these changes.
Yasuo has been considered broken since his buffs after release and is only thought of as anything but OP right now. Yeah Nid got her nerfs but lets not forget she had an execute stronger than Garen's on a five second cooldown. Leblanc is a different story due to how her kit is always either op or up
12tales1 votesYet there still remains the fact that these nerfs took multiple times the amount of time it would have taken for other champions to receive these changes.
Evidence?
The Red Warden3 votesVarus was nerfed fully after seeing lcs play for the first time, he didn't even dominate a match really. Zil and Janna only started showing up now and are already looking at changes. Twitch got nerfed much harder than Lucian even though Twitch was weaker than him.
12tales1 votesVarus' nerf history -
1.0.0.145 W AP ratio doubled, R missile width and tendril speed increased.
3.7 Move Speed reduced by 5; Q damage increased by 20, E damage decreased by 20
3.13 R Mana Cost reduced by 20
4.13 R Cooldown reduced by 10-20 seconds
I'm not seeing the full nerf, to be honest.
Neither Zilean nor Janna have been nerfed.
The Red Warden1 votesNot all changes are recorded on the wiki and the janna and Zil changes were only recently taken off the pbe
12tales1 votesNot all changes are recorded on the wiki
Link me to them, then? This was before I played the game.
taken off the pbe
Well then.
The Red Warden1 votesThe changes to the 2 will probably return soon though, go on surrender@20 and see the changes that would have happened
12tales1 votesWe'll see. In the mean time, 'probably going to return' isn't really sufficient evidence to make me believe that non-flashy champs are nerfed more.
The Red Warden1 votesJust watch how the next CertainlyT champion turns into a balancing disaster. Rioters have confirmed that his next champion should be out next year.
All his other other champions have been notorious for being hard to balance: Darius, Zyra, Yas, thresh and Zed
Daishø1 votes
. My baby 
. Got fucked when they nerfed him a while ago. But other then that he is rarely touched. They changed his ult like 2 patches ago, but nothing with the damage ratios. And i rarely see LB's or Zed's anymore now that i think about it.
KzooCrasher2 votesOne of the flashiest in S3 Gragas with his huge gap ratios and giant ult destruction plays got completely reworked... obviously its not preferential treatment
Genova Fearbane4 votesThey did nerf him. And to be honest he's not that OP anymore. I'm going to go ahead and say that anyone who disagrees probably simply has a hard time against early game junglers. I mean, come on. Lee sin has small late game potential especially if he doesn't get any kills or assists early.
Stop being such a brat because they didn't rework a champion.
Must agree Cass was a mistake though.
Earl Eulrich4 votesYea, that totally explains his dominance in the world-championship. If you have troubles with Lee lategame you or your team cannot play him, simply put.
Genova Fearbane4 votesYou don't look like LCS to me. And those players know how to snowball, and Lee Sin can easily give carries the early lead they need. He's just an early game champion, and some people can't handle that. I've never had a significant problem with Lee Sin in more than a few games, which is understandable.
12tales3 votesA champion being good in 5v5 premade with 0 ping and world class mechanics doesn't actually tell you that much about the champion. The vast, vast majority of games occur in settings that are much less ideal for Lee Sin than those. See: his absolute shit win rate in soloq.
Earl Eulrich3 votesYea sure, lets balance Champions around soloQ regardless of their potential - that´ll do the game some good!
12tales3 votesNot relevant to my point in the slightest. Worlds and SoloQ are vastly different environments, and extrapolating success in one of those contexts to mean success is necessary in the other (as your post does) is silly. Akali, Warwick, Rammus and Malzahar have almost never seen competitive play, but are some of the most successful champions in soloq. Lee Sin, Elise, LeBlanc and Twitch have all been pick or ban at some point in competitive play recently, but consistently put up awful numbers on soloq.
You can't take the ability of players like DanDy to use Lee Sin in the late game, and then assume that some dude in Silver's inability to get the same result is do to a lack of knowledge or something equally trivial. Lee Sin is a shitty champion for the vast majority of players, regardless of his 'potential.'
Ratbert2 votesSo, which do you prefer Riot to balance for? Scrubs or Pros? You realize if pros are picking and banning champs at a consistent rate, something might just be a little stronger for them. Lee Sin was never a shitty champion for the vast majority, with his 2 dashes and reposition, he was very clearly strong. You could literally miss your q all game and still e>flash>ult.
Earl Eulrich1 votesIt´s absolutely relevant...if you don´t want to balance Champs around what they can do you can just roll dice and hope that´ll balance the game out nicely. It doesn´t matter if a vast majority is too unskilled to play that specific Champion, there are 120+ other Champs for them to pick up. What matters is if that Champ can totally outshine any other champ in his role if he´s in capable hands.
12tales1 votesNo, I mean, I'm not talking about how Riot should balance. I'm talking about your misinterpretation of the data you're using. I think that this statement -
Yea, that totally explains his dominance in the world-championship. If you have troubles with Lee lategame you or your team cannot play him, simply put.
Is wrong. That's my position here. Not how Riot should balance Lee Sin. I think that you're wrong because you're drawing data from World Championships and applying it to soloq, and I think that's an ineffective approach to evaluating champions. I think that when Genova Fearbane says...
And to be honest he's not that OP anymore.
...he's right, because he's talking in the context of soloq. Where Lee Sin is a pretty bad champion.
Earl Eulrich1 votesyea, that´s why he´s the most played champ in challenger. terribly for SoloQ if he only gets you to the top 200. you are indeed talking about how Riot should be balancing if you don´t want them to address the potential (skill-ceiling) situation of a champ, but rather improve him soo much that even his skill-floor is pretty much failprove.
12tales1 votesthat´s why he´s the most played champ in challenger. terribly for SoloQ if he only gets you to the top 200.
He's also the third most played champ in Bronze, Gold, Plat and Diamond, and fourth most played champ in Silver. With a ~45% win rate in all of them.
Your logic is flawed.
you are indeed talking about how Riot should be balancing
I'm talking about how your statement was wrong.
Dominick Destine3 votesLee sin has small late game potential
I am not an expert at math or game calculations but others that are good at it have run the numbers and it shows that Lee scales better than like 85% of the cast. You are made of fail sir.
Genova Fearbane1 votesI'd like to see these calculations, unless you're sputtering absolute bull. Rioteers and diamond players have explicitly stated that Lee SIn is all about the early game. And who does Lee Sin scale better than? Cass?
Dominick Destine3 votesI remember when they were going to nerf Lee Sin's ward jumping and then decided to buff him instead. /gg
Lee has avoided nerfs for so long and been featured in every major tournament. MAYBE THEY SHOULD BALANCE HIM SO HE DOESN'T DESTROY OTHER JUNGLER'S CHANCES OF PLAYING?!?!? Just saying man...
BastionKross3 votesI distinctly remember everyone yelling about how powerful and stifling he was a few months ago, and Riot basically said "Okay guys, we're going to do something about him. We know he's overtuned. We're just going to wait until Worlds is over because it wouldn't be fair to all the pro players to nerf their #1 guy right before the big time."
People knew that was an excuse at best, but they shut up for the time being. But now Worlds is coming fast. And it'll be over soon. And we'll expect Lee to have his date with the nerf bat Riot. It's been a long time coming, and he deserves it.
Marenjii3 votesBecause Leddit QQ'd about it.
Corporal B1 votesThese are the questions we will never know the answer too. Even with sion. They either need to really buff his scaling or just revert back.
Earl Eulrich1 votesYea, and now in worlds he´s about 100% pick&ban for his (now completely) unmatched strength in the jungle. And back then there actually had been a lot of people that wanted to see him reworked aswell...with Cassio you haven´t seen a lot of people wanting her to be e-spam-only instead of a posion mage. It´s just a really sad afair.
