Blah blah blah...
Welp! Since the whole point of this rework was to make Cassio not a lane bully is seems like Stachu needs to get back in here and get his butt to work.
Quepha33 votesthere was a point where stashu was like "oh hey, it turns out these changes made cass healthy as a lane bully" before when she bullied just with Q it was unhealthy, now when she needs to Q, get in range for a couple E's, then land a second Q with that poison amp and back off, it creates more opportunities to fight back.
Baron Von Bangin35 votesThing is, there's no dodging Es. Look at Karthus, he essentially functions exactly the same as Cassio in lane. Fish with delayed aoe Qs. Throw out your W when you want to peel or hunt them down and pop your E when you want to slam them with unavoidable damage.
So even when Riot went on about how Cassio needed to find her own unique niche outside of being "cookie cutter" mage. They just made her Karthus with artificial skill inhibitors built in.
She needs to go back to the drawing board by Riot's very own definition. Not to mention she's unbearable to play as/against.
Mathbalnase18 votesBut...but...old Cass was 'stepping on Zigg's toes!' no, don't go looking at their respective release dates or comparing their kits any deeper than I just did, or comparing Cass' kit (new or old) to anyone else, either Stashu at some point, probably
junglerboy1621 votesI thought it was stepping on Brand's toes, or was it some other DoT mage who came after her?
Mathbalnase7 votesIt was both (among others) at one point or another. Ziggs was about 'strong ranged harass in lane'. Brand was 'DoT mage'.
5G8Nri0B5416 votesChange of mind. Cassiopeia having DoT makes her step on Zyra's toes now!
Orangesilk9 votesCome to think of it, I do remember Stashu saying she was doing something similar to Swain by being a DOT mage, and so he fixed her by... giving her spellvamp on her E.
Because spellvamp is in no way similar to anything Swain does.
Quepha4 votes[{quoted}](name=Baron Von Bangin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fubJHYed,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-01-27T22:32:00.035+0000)
Thing is there's no dodging Es. Look at Karthus, he essentially functions exactly the same as Cassio in lane. Fish with delayed aoe Qs. Throw out your W when you want to peel or hunt them down and pop your E when you want to slam them with unavoidable damage.
So even when Riot went on about how Cassio needed to find her own unique niche outside of being "cookie cutter" mage. They just made her Karthus with artificial skill inhibitors built in.
She needs to go back to the drawing board by Riot's very own definition. Not to mention she's unbearable to play as/against.
cass was more similar to karthus when she didn't need to E in lane to bully, now she has to get closer for enough time to land e's and a second q.
and karthus has to be a late game carry because of that Q fishing pattern, his damage in the early game has to be too low for him to survive a straight-up fight because a bully pattern of q spam is awful. that's what they thought they had to do with cass until they moved some damage back into Q BUT ONLY when it's backloaded into the second pass after she gets the poison amp.
Baron Von Bangin6 votescass was more similar to karthus when she didn't need to E in lane to bully, now she has to get closer for enough time to land e's and a second q.
and karthus has to be a late game carry because of that Q fishing pattern, his damage in the early game has to be too low for him to survive a straight-up fight because a bully pattern of q spam is awful. that's what they thought they had to do with cass until they moved some damage back into Q BUT ONLY when it's backloaded into the second pass after she gets the poison amp.
Thing is Karthus isn't going to really be draining health bars with his E until he is in the late game. Keeping his E up for more than just a couple seconds in lane is (numbers off the top of my head, fact check me if I'm wrong) costs him over 100 mana. But Karthus will never kill you with just Qs, it will literally never happen. Just like Cass, Karthus needs to "go in for the kill" by running at you with his E active. The damage and range is completely comparable to what Cass can throw at you.
And regardless of numbers or strength or whatever, Riot's whole stance on remaking Cass was to make her a late game hyper-carry mage with a bad laning phase because, for some reason, that was the niche they decided to shoehorn her into... so she'd be unique... and then becoming Karthus in the process. So now that's she doesn't fulfill a unique niche and is a lane bully (supposedly the whole reason for reworking her) they need to rework her again, right?
Kristari Zuboro7 votesIt's because the reasons she was remade, are exactly NOT the reasons given. The reasons given have always been made up to fit the end result - it was because someone played her vs. Morello in a match, and he got his ass handed to him.
What's unhealthy for the game, is and always has been, through his eyes.
Quepha3 votes[{quoted}](name=Baron Von Bangin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fubJHYed,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2015-01-27T22:56:14.039+0000)
And regardless of numbers or strength or whatever, Riot's whole stance on remaking Cass was to make her a late game hyper-carry mage with a bad laning phase because, for some reason, that was the niche they decided to shoehorn her into... so she'd be unique... and then becoming Karthus in the process. So now that's she doesn't fulfill a unique niche and is a lane bully (supposedly the whole reason for reworking her) they need to rework her again, right?
no, they don't. IF they landed on something that still kinda fills a niche, is healthy for the game, and feels like cass, you shouldn't rework her again just because she didn't happen to do all those things in the exact ways they expected her to, there's no reason to fix what ain't broke even if (especially if) you don't know how you fixed her.
you can argue new cass isn't healthy, doesn't fill a niche, or doesn't feel like cass, but don't argue that she needs another rework because she's all those things but her power curve isn't exactly what they planned on.
Orbv4 votesActually they reworked Skarner immediately after his rework because it didn't fulfill what was intended, and then nerfed the heck out of the most recent rendition because it was what was intended, but too good.
Her power curve is what they planned on, and then some. Maybe she DOES need another rework. She did not accomplish the end goal of making her fun and a late game oriented artillery mage. If they nerf the base damages or ratios at early levels they doom her to losing the game for her team as she cannot push or protect her own lane. She is so dependent on her new passive that without a strong early, she will never reach her late game. Old Cass was never this reliant and was fine
Quepha1 votesActually they reworked Skarner immediately after his rework because it didn't fulfill what was intended, and then nerfed the heck out of the most recent rendition because it was what was intended, but too good.
Her power curve is what they planned on, and then some. Maybe she DOES need another rework. She did not accomplish the end goal of making her fun and a late game oriented artillery mage. If they nerf the base damages or ratios at early levels they doom her to losing the game for her team as she cannot push or protect her own lane. She is so dependent on her new passive that without a strong early, she will never reach her late game. Old Cass was never this reliant and was fine
but immediately after rework, skarner was terrible and useless. they reworked him because of that reason, not because he didn't do exactly what they wanted him to.
Orbv3 votesThe thing is that his kit was full of problems that needed to be fixed, and changing scaling wouldn't help. A big issue of Cass is her passive which nobody actually enjoys, but instead of changing it, they change the scaling of everything else. It's like they're pushing the bars in Jenga and hoping the other legs can support the 3 lb bag of garbage you put at the top. In the end, you still have the bag of garbage and your foundation is weaker with the changes, but it will somehow survive.
TheKingDodo4 votesmake her Es skill shots. the end. Can we stop changing cassiopeia 3 times in 3 months? I can't handle change :(
Orangesilk7 votesI'm exactly like you, which is why I main Cho and pray I don't see him in any patch notes, not even buffs, NOTHING.
(Buffs often end with overpowered champions, who then get overnerfed into obscurity, I don't want that for my Cho)
Moulin Rouge23 votesI honestly have trouble believing the rework department knows what it's doing at this point. They say one thing but the champions always end up being another.
Cuix1 votesEh, Sion and Xerath turned out well, and at least Skarner did get changed after that hilaribad initial rework. Dunno what Stashu's deal is, though.
Oleandervine16 votesCassiopeia only steps on toes because of the fact that other mages who step on her toes are much more popular than she is. Therefore, Riot has deemed that it's all Cassiopeia's fault and never any other champion than infringes on her.
L7xLoTek4 votesExcept, you know, no feet... No wonder Riot is confused :p
Earthlord Jazz12 votesAnother thing that annoys be by that statement is that the same is true for Cass during the laning phase. "One wrong move AS Cassiopeia can make you dead faster than you can say 'U wot mate?'"
Tapu Fini11 votesYep, complete and utter bullshit. The entire reason they butchered her, and they still couldn't get it right. Guess you really can't make a bully into something else with just number tweaks.
So now we've got this passive that I and many others hate, and carpal tunnel from spamming twin fang, with absolutely no progress to show for it. Nice one, rito.
InsaneSamurai11 votesWhat's funny is Lee does this to your jungle, but apparently that's ok.
magibon11 votes"As a lane bully, one wrong move against Cassiopeia can lose you a ton of HP..."
This describes virtually every champion in this game.
Hellioning9 votesNot only does the explanation make no sense, the changes make no sense. She's not going to lane bully any worse in laning phase because laning phase is when her mana costs don't matter; given how E works, a decent Cass will never go OOM in lane phase.
It's after lane phase, when she's already is danger a lot, that this change will hurt her. It's already kinda hard to do objectives or teamfights without running out of mana; this'll just make it even harder.
Orangesilk3 votesIt's a way to control her power though, if you're forced to waste gold on mana, it's gold you're not wasting on actual combat stats, thus your net power at any point of the game is diminished.
She had a ridiculous winrate, rivaled only by the broken Rek'Sai, so I'd agree she needed a bit of power gating.
Hellioning4 votesBut she always bought mana anyway. Like, out of the 20 latest Cass games on probuilds, only one of them doesn't have a tear/archangel's/seraph's or a RoA.
This change isn't going to affect her early game much and it's going to hurt her lategame; considering they're supposedly nerfing her because of her lane bully status, that is entirely backwards.
Grand Eleven9 votes... and here I thought the goal was to make her an hyper carry. Are they not allowed to take tons of HP anymore?
I kid I kid ...
THough it's getting hard to keep up.
Originally the fixed scaling passive was to kill the lane bully. They wanted a late game AP hyper-carry.
At some point that meant "lets make her E really strong and by doing that if she becomes a lane bully again it will be healthy because its shorter range".
Now we are back at "she can't be a lane bully, she needs to be a late game hyper carry" ... and the fix once again is to .... further gut Q and W. Want to lock down that passive one more tmie while we are at it?
Hey, I figured she'd be easy to balance once 90% of her damage was in her E ... guess I was wrong ... can Riot please admit it's wrong to keep thinking "put even more power into E" is wrong too?
futuresight238 votesI don't think being the next Ryze aka scourge of the top lane is what anyone wants Cassiopeia to be. Maybe the mana nerfs force her to be more judicious with her spells or go with builds that enable more spamming like Tear-Rod of Ages instead just one of those items into Rylai's.
Baron Von Bangin23 votesBecause her build options weren't pigeon-holed enough already, AMIRITE?
InsaneSamurai4 votesPart of this "scourge of top lane" thing is simply because of the meta and people's sometimes bizarre adherence to it. If top starts getting flooded with melee champs, many ranged champs are going to start being awesome, because you're fighting a 1v1. It'd make more sense to me if the solo lanes were more for safer, ranged champs and the jungle/bot was where the melees tend to hang out. There would surely still be viable melee picks like Riven or Yasuo, but you would have less situations where someone is just outranged and can't properly farm without dying because they took a very short range champ up there.
Desmond Law8 votesHey Stashu, do you think the reworked Cass functions a little too much like Urgot? I mean, you hit one spell to allow another to auto lock-on.
Who's Urgot?
Cyrad8 votesWhile Cassiopeia can be a lane bully, she's also one of the most unsafe mages in the game. As a result. I don't really understand why she was reworked in the first place. She probably needed a tweak, but a rework that ironically did not fix her main "problem" just makes me shake my head. The only thing I liked about it was letting me last-hit with my E. It actually made farming fun with Cass.
Lapis x37 votesThese mana nerfs will make Cassiopeia's early game extremely terrible... I wish they could actually balance Cass for once!
You cant balance her with this stupid passive giving her a boatload of AP late game...especially since she has a **targeted, unavoidable spell **that she can spam. Her late game DPS is insane, but increasing her mana costs isn't going to fix the problem.
The only way Cassiopeia is ever going to be balanced is if her old passive came back (or a new one...) and her ratios were increased (Cough Miasma Cough). Then she wont be dealing 900 magic damage on each E ;-; Cass was perfectly fine before this rework...all she needed were the QoL changes given to her in her visual update.
Salzigorimando3 votesPreach it, we still haven't gotten an solid factual reason why this rework happened. She was too much of a "lane bully"? Who was rarely played and only "bullied" people who forgot she had to play hugely aggressive in lane to survive? Her late game carry potential needed to be improved? So buff her weakest, most dangerous, and least iconic ability into becoming her primary ability? Her entire play style was changed for crying out loud.
Why? I've been so confused, I just don't get it.
Cuix5 votesThe problem wasn't, isn't, and will never be her raw power. The problem continues to be that her manipulative poison mage identity has for some reason turned into a brainless spamming skirmisher. It's baffling.
2pudge1cup6 votesShe shouldn't have been reworked to begin with. How do people not understand this? The only reason the rework picked up steam is because the numbers were buffed big time. Her old state could have easily sufficed.
Señor Karthus5 votesI am a main Karthus and I love Cassio, but I agree she is unbearable right now. "A small mistake makes you loose tons of health"? You mean that Cassio will be out traded early game every time unless she does something really REALLY smart (or the enemy something really stupid)? She has to land a lot of shit to do any interesting damage. If not, they will just use one flask charge and be back fresh as a rose. And in that process she will mostly be out traded. But hey. Lets increase the mana cost of her E some more so you can't even poke anymore and have to stick with a shitty Q.
Cosmic Warper9 votesThen you've never played cassiopeia, or you build her wrong. As cassio whenever i land a Q on someone at level two i outtrade them. That's it. Doesn't matter which midlaner it is, they are getting outtraded because E spam after Q is ridiculous. Position yourself correctly to dodge any possible skillshots and you win lane easily.
Orangesilk4 votesI personally find most people with gapclosers or CC heavily outtrading me, even if they are sitting in miasma and eating E, but aside from a few outliers then yeah, Cassiopeia can outtrade most people, the thing is, her range is tiny for appropiate trading in the lane of the long range mages, so against people like Syndra, Ziggs or Xerath, you aren't even trading to begin with, just taking fire.
Cosmic Warper1 votesHer E is 700 range so you can trade with syndra just fine. Xerath and Ziggs obviously poke the crap out of you, but that's why i run MS quints on her in the first place :)
Orangesilk4 votesSyndras Q has 800, her W has 950, and her E, which is the awful stun that leaves you vulnerable for a while has 700, so you're taking fire from a longer distance than your range, and when you're finally in range, you can take CC and just keep taking fire.
Of course you CAN outplay her, but the trade is in Syndras favor to begin with, and from there it becomes a matter of skill.
Cuix5 votesI also like how Stashu pretended to be committed to making a fun and healthy Cass, but has so far done jack shit as far as actual significant changes after the initial rework. She's still a mid-range spam-casting mindless hypercarry, even after fans of the champ tried to explain why this was never her identity. Stashu won't listen, though, and now that she's seen LCS play we're stuck with this blaster idiot for at least another year. Why did they let him do this rework, again?
I Main Swain4 votesnot saying you changed your mind or anything (no clue if you have) but I love how everybody went from butthurt rage about Cassiopeia being "trash" despite the clear facts against it, now everybody realized that wasn't the case and that she is still strong even after many nerfs since. honestly, I shoulda jumped on the cass train while everybody was still convinced she was terrible
Hawkefire9 votesBro, most of the people here know that she was strong. They don't care about the fact that she was strong. They care about the fact that their old champion playstyle (which to be perfectly honest is far more healthy and easier to balance than the current one) was utterly obliterated. Pre-rework you could either go E-Spam or Q-Spam, you could also itemize into many different builds as the situation required. Post-rework, she is now pigeonholed into 1 build (and deviating from that build will severely hamper your power), and her Q-Spam playstyle was entirely removed.
Tendrian3 votesLiterally no one said she was trash after she was buffed through the roof in 4.21, everyone, even the diehard rework haters like myself, acknowledged that she would be incredibly strong number wise.
However, she's still trash tier when it comes to fulfilling the characters fantasy. She's still trash tier when it comes to offering actually enjoyable gameplay (enjoyable beyond "lawl I'm broken right now and can stomp noobs").
Also, she hasn't received a single nerf since her rework - only buff after buff until the mana nerfs she got today.
Tbh, the only one in this thread who sounds butthurt is you - and you have apparently no idea what you are talking about on top of it.
5G8Nri0B543 voteseurgh...I think I repeated multiple times in every single Cass thread that numbers and balance have always, ALWAYS been a red herring. If she was UP you can up her numbers and if she was OP you could lower her numbers as they're doing now.
People were never made about her being shit or anything. It's purely 100% Stashu ruining her gameplay.
ModKnightsKemplar3 votesYou are exactly right. I have been following the rework pretty closely because I've been interested in the backlash from the Cass community. I main Swain, and I've never lost in lane harder than to old Cass. That is, until new Cass.
In the middle of all the changes she went through, there was one point where I picked Swain into her because I wanted to see how different it felt. It felt great. As promised, she was weak enough early that I could handle laning against her. Imagine my surprise, a few weeks later, when she trashed me even worse than before with those undodgeable twin fangs.
So, yeah, I came away with "... how is this better than old cass? She is still incredibly strong in lane early and some kind of strange hyper-carry late, so she can snowball her strong laning into an unwinnable game? Sounds like that nightmare HoN game I heard about when I started playing LoL."
And yeah, I haven't had much experience with her, but the experience that I did have with her has been incredibly negative. It seems like she has completely lost direction, and basically functions like a spell dependent adc that does magic damage. I hate to just bash on Stashu constantly, but I can't say I love what he did with her. From the other side of her lane, she feels even worse of a bully, and the cass players don't like her either. Not sure what that leaves us with.
5G8Nri0B544 votesThe worst thing is, Stashu reads all the feedback, and came out with the conclusion that people were made at her being shit upon the initial rework...completely ignoring the cries that she just isn't fun anymore to play as, or that her Passive felt awfuk, or that people hated how 99% of her power went to her E.
Not sure what that leaves us with.
A whopping 4% pick rate which was 2x her normal pick rate after the rework!
(...the double in pickrate to 4% was fueled by her being OP btw)