The Problem With Hook Supports

Tiniest Turtle··9 votes·6,375 views

Hooks are extremely strong CC tools and arguably the most useful tool for a support. They create an enormous amount of lane pressure even when not used and when landed often mean a kill or at least a large chunk of someone's health gone. Either that or they force a flash or some sort of mobility. If you're in the same boat as a lot of supports and ADCs (which usually go bottom vs said hook champions) where you don't have a mobility skill, then good luck. You're probably not going to be able to be aggressive in lane. Now you'd think that with a tool like this in their kits, it'd be enough to win trades. The thing is, EVERY hook support has a secondary hard CC ability that they can land guaranteed for landing that hook, and in this meta, that basically means death. Especially with Pyke where that combo also does a lot of damage or when they have ignite. Pyke's Q applies a heavy slow and his E is thick, so his stun is easy to land. Thresh can Q to you and flay you instantly. Blitzcrank can use his E to knock you up right after you get pulled. Naut has his passive. They all have CC they can use right after they get you out of position which is why NOONE likes playing vs them. I get that the point of these champions is CC but like you should have a chance to get away or dodge the incoming CC after they hook you so you don't just lose. I just don't think it's healthy that for landing a skillshot that already is super rewarding they get the reward of a near 100% guaranteed additional hard CC on you. That's just my opinion.

18 Comments

FeistyPoptart13 votes

Plus thresh and blitz can just walk up to you with mobis and/or flash and use e which on blitz is targeted and on thresh is very easy to land which then guarantees them a hook and basically a 3 second stun.

Netorare5 votes

There is no problem with hook supports because u can DODGE the hook(yes i know the way hitboxes connect in general is just bullshit but this is how ALL HITBOXES work in league)

giantZorg4 votes

I'm surprised you didn't mention the wonky hitboxes. Naut Q for example is about one anker longer than the indicator.

My Waifu Vanilla3 votes

Until you try to hit a wall with it and fail horribly even though the anchor visually lands INSIDE the wall.

giantZorg2 votes

Yes, that's true. It somehow interacts differently with champion hitboxes than with terrain hitboxes I think. (And why does hitbox get autocorrected to hotbox??)

Daddy Ants2 votes

The problem with hook supports is the hitboxes.

Nautilus and Thresh are the worst offenders for this.

Tuition Fee2 votes

I have no issue with hook supports. Balanced, imo. Here's why: -A smart tank will stand in front of squishies, meaning you have a hard time getting to back line -If you hook a tank then you've just fucked your entire team (Unless you're Thresh and you don't engage) -Thresh is relatively easy to kill for someone who has to go in to flay people. High risk gameplay. -If you hook people into a low health ally who's running away (Even the enemy ADC) you've quite possibly just fucked that ally over -If you're alone you don't have as many good escape options (EX: Zyra can root them, Janna can Tornado, but Thresh can only flay them, and by then they're probs close enough to cast a damaging ability) -You have close to no poke -If you're losing lane you can't do much, other than hook fed people into ADC or "poking" with 10s long hooks that do no dmg if you're Thresh -Crucible can cleanse the stun during hooks, allowing for escapes -You do no damage on your own (Unless you go full AP/AD, in which case you die pretty damn fast during fights) -They take skill (Cough not Soraka Cough)

mack91122 votes

It's definitely a skill matchup if you dodge the hooks there lane impact is extremely low

The Whamboozler1 votes

Given the snowbally state of the game I can see why you feel this way but consider...

"hook champs" are almost universally melee or extremely short ranged, and sustain. They are vulnerable to being poked out of lane and if they fail to snowbally their carry they're basically useless. Their strength is directly proportional to how strong early leads are in the meta, and if the meta changes they'll immediately be less of an issue, possibly even becoming rather weak.

They're only good when the meta supports them... and they DO have flaws. Come late game the ONLY thing they are good at is trying to get a pick and win a teamfight off it. Strong, yes? But no waveclear. No sustain. Not much durability. They're hardly OP.... just kinda stressful to play against. I feel the same about people like Zed, even though I know damned well how to play against him and I wouldn't really call him OP either.

Just ride it out and wait for the meta to shift.

Tiniest Turtle4 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Whamboozler,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rkZ7H8ss,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-08-10T04:50:10.070+0000)

Given the snowbally state of the game I can see why you feel this way but consider...

"hook champs" are almost universally melee or extremely short ranged, and sustain. They are vulnerable to being poked out of lane and if they fail to snowbally their carry they're basically useless. Their strength is directly proportional to how strong early leads are in the meta, and if the meta changes they'll immediately be less of an issue, possibly even becoming rather weak.

They're only good when the meta supports them... and they DO have flaws. Come late game the ONLY thing they are good at is trying to get a pick and win a teamfight off it. Strong, yes? But no waveclear. No sustain. Not much durability. They're hardly OP.... just kinda stressful to play against. I feel the same about people like Zed, even though I know damned well how to play against him and I wouldn't really call him OP either.

Just ride it out and wait for the meta to shift.

Melee doesn't really matter since they can hook you. They aren't that vulnerable to poke since they can stay at range and hook poke supports if they come out from behind their wave to poke. If they fail to snowball their carry they can still hook someone and get a kill in a teamfight if anyone else on their team is ahead. They're strong in lane and come teamfights only Blitzcrank doesn't have much of a teamfight and even just hooking someone and getting a kill from one ability and then turning the fight in your favor is still really strong. They don't need waveclear. They're supports. Don't really need sustain and besides Pyke actually does have that. All except Pyke are tanks and build tanky. Sorry, your other points were fine but I needed to countercomment on those points. None of that really matters anyway, the point I was trying to maKe is that I don't think it's ok that they get to hook you and then CC chain you immediately out of it for free. The hook is already enough of a tool to get a lot of damage out of with some follow up without the additional lockdown.

The Whamboozler5 votes

See... you kinda made my point yourself. Hooking people is ALL they are good at. They're basically the same as assassins in playstyle... trying to get picks. Except that unlike assassins (save pyke, but I honestly don't know what rito was thinking with him) they're usually unable to kill someone themselves.

So you have a teammate who is good for NOTHING except trying to get kills. Yes, getting a hook lategame can win an evenly matched game... but that is because most of these champs do literally nothing else. When people tire of the assassin meta and things shift, hookers (that is what I DEMAND we call them now) will fall out of power. Not entirely, mind you... but somewhat.

It seems like what you are doing is deciding something is broken or a problem because it is good at doing what it was designed to do... because you yourself do not like playing against it or you dislike that type of playstyle.... or you just lost a game to a good blitzcrank or somethin. I dunno. But trust me, there are MUCH more problematic things in the game than hookers. They do one thing very well and usually have clear and obvious counterplay to them. I'd call "well defined strengths and weaknesses" GOOD design. Now, admittedly... each hooker is different and some might be better designed than others (again, pyke... wtf were they thinking)... but since you declared them a problem as a whole, I am refuting they are a problem as a whole. While some might be a little too much and some might be lackluster, the basic idea of a champ that hooks you, pulls you in and sits on you for a second or two while his team tries to kill you isn't a problem. It's a playstyle... and it's fine.

FeistyPoptart3 votes

They didn't say hook supports were a problem, they said hook supports have a problem. They shouldn't have a free extra one whole second to keep you cced (plus a massive slow from thresh e) for no skill required while their adc either kills you or sets up their own cc.

The Whamboozler1 votes

Considering the sheer number of champions that can press a single button to dash/blink/jump/flash/etc away the moment they're hooked, I feel I disagree with you.

When 100% of your role is built to get a hook so your team can pick people and get kills, you almost NEED a follow up stun or something to keep them held down for an extra second. Your allies might not the reaction speed of a korean pro player and might fail to drop a stun on the hooked enemy before they can pop out. Or they might be a little out of range to do so. Or perhaps they are quick but their stun and/or damage is a skillshot with a little travel time, so between them tossing it and it hitting the hooked enemy, they have time to blink away.

No. I disagree with you here. Hook champs that are working properly pretty much NEED follow up CC of some sort... if only a silence to prevent someone from blinking out instantly and making the hook meaningless. There's a reason that nearly every champion based around hooking the enemy has hard CC to follow up with.

The sheer irony here is that I doubt the OP would imply that say... ZED is "a problem", because past 6 he can W then R at you from across the entire screen to dive you for a kill with very little risk to himself, since he can R right back out. Now, I'm not saying that Zed is OP. I'm not saying this mechanic is unfair. There are enough counters to Zed that I'm not even really all that annoyed to face one. But I fail to see how THAT kind of pressure being put on a lane is any different than the fear of a blitz hook. Blitz is easier to dodge, even... and the fat bastard can rarely kill you without backup.

My point was this. If you die to the Zed W-R divebomb... it's your fault. If you die to the blitz Q-E-R, it is ALSO your fault. And if you want to cry about it, you'd better whine about EVERYONE who can suddenly blow you apart out of nowhere if they land a lucky combo... not JUST hookers. And yes, I needed to call them hookers.

jadelink1 votes

This is not entirely true. A blitz who cant hook a paranoid enemy all lane is still terrifying in midgame with zero items if your team has immobile squishies. He's also quite robust.

The Whamboozler1 votes

Um, if he can't land a hook there is nothing terrifying about him.

That's like being scared of a Lux who can't land skillshots. Sure, she might catch ya with an E once in a while but otherwise she's not really much help.

jocomotion1 votes

TahmKench : for obvious reasons Braum : if you get hooked simply put up your shield and jump back to your carry, if your carry gets hooked jump to them and put up your shield Lulu : you easily keep out of range, silence any follow up CC they have, and can HUGIFY allies who are all-in’d for a wide knockup Rakan : same as Braum but better mobility and CC and less tank stats and blocking.

There ya go. Easy counters to literally every hook support as a support I can also do other lanes if you like.

My Waifu Vanilla1 votes

cOuNtErPiCk dOeSnT EqUaL CoUnTeRpLaY

Even though the hooks themselves have enough counterplay since you can not only just dodge them but stand behind literally anything and not get hit. Hell Blitz has one of the "worst" hooks since it has the highest fail rate since if you hook ANY tank into your team you basically auto lose the fight. All other hooks doesn't drag them straight to the middle of your team and only halfway. The only "problem" I have with the "hookers" is Blitz generally being able to just W+E anyone that isn't faster than him or have on demand instant cast CC (anything with a cast time means you have to stop and he just throws the hook anyway while you can't move).

Salvor Hardın1 votes

As a player who handles all the supports it seems to me that these champions are well balanced.

Most wizards like Karma, Brand, Zyra, etc. can poke at these supports without rest. And most people have no way around that poke.

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