Making talon's E stackable? (Twice)

Ataraxas·May 15, 2015·20 votes·2,351 views

Many of you might not see the silence removal as much but us talon mains can feel the difference. It needs SOME kind of buff. This is personally my idea to make his E stackable considering he is like the only mid assassin with a single gapcloser. All the rest have at least two. Akali has 3 huge stackable dashes enough said. Fizz has his dash and the hop thingy, (don't play fizz much lol) Kass has his ulti after ultis. Kat has reseting e's. Yas can e multiple things with no cd. Zed has his shadow and his ult. While talon only has his e, no reset, no second gap closer ability, no low cooldown, and no stacks either. So my idea was to make his (E) stackable upto twice. :) That way he can get back into the game after his nerf and have a second gap closer like all the other mid assassins. Anyways this is my idea let me know what you guys think!

37 Comments

BônesMay 15, 20156 votes

[{quoted}](name=Natsu Dragneel19,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rhZQN2ty,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-05-15T02:43:26.395+0000)

Many of you might not see the silence removal as much but us talon mains can feel the difference.

You were supposed to feel the difference. That's the point of a nerf. He was too strong before. He is still very strong. Your changes would probably just make him too strong again. Be thankful that Riot didn't deal with Talon the way they dealt with Syndra or Kassadin. xD

stuartk11May 15, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=SG Bones,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rhZQN2ty,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2015-05-15T13:15:59.519+0000)

You were supposed to feel the difference. That's the point of a nerf. He was too strong before. He is still very strong. Your changes would probably just make him too strong again. Be thankful that Riot didn't deal with Talon the way they dealt with Syndra or Kassadin. xD

Kassadin isn't THAT bad. Syndra on the other hand.... shivers

avilusMay 15, 20154 votes

The post you made is hard to read and I don't think anyone really understands what you mean by "stacking".

Cutthroat is a targeted blink. What is going to stack?

Voluug13May 15, 201517 votes

He means an ammo systeam like Smite.

avilusMay 15, 20154 votes

Right. I don't think it would accomplish much, OP. What is he going to do to his second target?

Autoattack them? His main damage abilities, being Rake and Noxian Diplomacy, would be on cooldown during the timeframe in which he would be blinking between two enemies anyway.

AtaraxasMay 15, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Right. I don't think it would accomplish much, OP. What is he going to do to his second target?

Autoattack them? His main damage abilities, being Rake and Noxian Diplomacy, would be on cooldown during the timeframe in which he would be blinking between two enemies anyway.

Trust me it would his q is on 2.4 sec cool down at max rank and full cdr he should be able to kill a second a target off since they would already be prety low after the aoe burst, he can just go in with the second e and use the low cd q

Voluug13May 15, 20152 votes

He can use it as a Fiora Q, to blink to a frontliner and then to the adc, or to keep up with flashes/dashes from his target, or to juke with minions, or to bait ablities. its use couldn't only be ''lets you kill 2 people''.

AtaraxasMay 15, 20153 votes

{quoted}

He means an ammo systeam like Smite.

^nailed it

DocShockerMay 15, 20154 votes

Hmm.. As much as I would like something to help spice up his kit, this might be a tad too much unless the CD between casts is something reasonable in length. We don't want him to end up as an even unhealthier Katarina where he wouldn't need resets to jump around, right?

I mean, it'd be obvious that it can't be a spam ability to where you can E someone, then E to the adc/apc to nuke em. Would make things much harder to react than even Zed used to be. It'd also make him much harder to pin down. Oh, he just killed the carry and ult'd, get ready to kill him.. Then they unload as he reappears, but he just jumps someone else then runs or deals a good chunk of damage to them as well. So no going like Vel'koz W where he can toss em out back to back kinda so there'd be counterplay. Another ex. would be Talon jumps in, enemy flashes, Talon jumps on them again.

On the other side, it can make playing as Talon a bit more fulfilling to pull off something like Zed, but with more risk. Zed can toss a shadow to mess with enemies' heads and wonder if he'll go there or not. Talon would literally poof in then can poof to someone else. It can play mind games of who the Talon is really targeting in a fight, but also adds a bit more survivability to him if he can chain two jumps into his combo properly to avoid reflexes from the enemy.

It'd just be something interesting to have, but difficult to implement into his kit without lowering something else for his newly added mobility. For me, it'd just have to be something to both see and experience in the game itself before saying if it'd be good or bad for him.

SolaxoMay 15, 20151 votes

Katarina doesn't have mana

ThePlasticSporkMay 15, 20154 votes

No.

Absolutely not.

This change would not be ok.

FooDangMay 15, 20153 votes

In theory his harass potential would be broken...E>W>AA>Q>E to a minion and walk away...that could happen so fast there would be virtually zero counterplay...not to mention post 6 the distance he could cover via minion wave...E to a minion E to enemy full combo...Lunch...

DivewingMay 15, 20153 votes

No, that would remove what little risk/counterplay he has. Not talking shit, I play a lot of talon

Dr PoroMay 15, 20153 votes

Talon was a God tier assassin before this nerf with 53+% winrate. He's still the number 1 assassin on the ladder (unless you count katarina or fiora as asssassins) at 51.2% winrate. This combined with the fact that he performs better in high ELO than in low ELO makes buffing atm him pretty insane.

I think he's in a good spot right now and I think this change will require a cut in his damage which is something I (as a Talon player myself) don't like to see.

Talon already has an in and out mechanism thanks to his ult. He doesn't need a 2k range assassination combo because that would make him like Akali currently is: overnerfed.

TsohgderMay 15, 20153 votes

As a Talon main, I don't think he needs a buff at all. He's pretty balanced (and kinda strong when played right) in all ELOs, he's also been a really strong pick in high korean solo-queue for a long time, with a really high win-rate there.

A Talon buff would increase his popularity, and that would probably lead to damage nerfs.

The only buff I'd take is that his Q deals damage over 3-4 seconds instead of 6, so that the DoT doesn't overlap at max range when the CD is 4s.

TwoDMay 15, 20152 votes

as a talon player I think that would make him pretty broken, but I know something better.

when he ults he should be able to leap/lunge towards the targeted enemy (just like rengar)

UPfreelyMay 15, 20152 votes

i feel like this might make him too hard to deal with but if you don't mind a somewhat longer recharge timer, it could work probably would look something like this ~~ COOLDOWN: 18 / 16 / 14 / 12 / 10~~ -> COOLDOWN: 27 / 24 / 21 / 18 / 15

QazgirMay 15, 20151 votes

Whats the point? If he E's to someone either he is going to full combo in under a second and kill them(hopefully) or die.

AtaraxasMay 15, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Whats the point? If he E's to someone either he is going to full combo in under a second and kill them(hopefully) or die.

It can help chase, it can help finish off a second target quickly after killing off the first (his q should do enough damage after the aoe burst and it's on a low enough cooldown) kinda like katarina reset but only once

ResiakedrømMay 15, 20151 votes

I don't know it doesn't seem fitting to his kit.

Granted, I don't play much Talon but he doesn't seem like the type thats even supposed to chase, more just kill the target in a single rotation and get the fuck out. All I see this change doing is making him more forgiving if you weren't able to kill them in the first rotation or being used as an extremely frustrating lane escape.

It honestly just doesn't make sense in his kit being able to blink twice especially considering hes supposed to burst with his other seplls that wont even be up at the time.

SawsersMay 15, 20151 votes

Talon does more than just 1v1, it has plenty of practical use

CreationFlawMay 15, 20151 votes

I actually don't find it to be that much of a hindrance, but it can be annoying sometimes. Having two flat Katarina dashes if you saved up would be kind of stupid though, I mean, in and out in under 1.5 seconds after killing the target seems a bit annoying.

MyozthirirnMay 15, 20151 votes

OP juat wants another zed to fill the gap xDD

Cloud PotatoMay 15, 20151 votes

Since Talon's sustained damage is so high multiple dashes would make sense on him without making him unbeatable. In fact, it's a much better idea than some of the others I've seen, like making him able to target friendly units or giving him his Silence back.

lDontLiftIcarryMay 15, 20151 votes

yeah but talon is that champion that has that whole "my Q crits for 1k so you die even with 300 armor" bullshit. if they make that interaction stop happening I'd give him 3 gap closers on his E idc/

But getting 1v1'd by a talon that crits 1 time ebcause he bought IE and yomuus is just retarded honestly. literally the only counter to not being 1 shotted for 2k+ damage is exhaust+red trinket

iateurdoughnutMay 16, 20151 votes

ADC main confirmed ^

Mecha MaIphiteMay 15, 20151 votes

I just think he needs a new passive.

Having his E being stackable would be really strong. He already has faster burst than most assassins with decent DPS to go along with it.

Jungle Lux GodMay 15, 20151 votes

Assuming Talon needs buffs, this might either be a good thing or a bad thing.

It might be a good thing because it increases his power level in a way that Talon players can feel without increasing his burst any more than it already is.

It might be a bad thing because it makes his champion kit more similar to other assassins. Yes, all of the assassins you said (and some that you didn't say) have either multiple or spammable gapclosers, and Talon only has one gapcloser. However, Talon only having one gapcloser might be appropriate than having two if he gets a different kind of buff that makes him stand out more from the other assassins.

Maybe more CC from his W or E so that he functions more as a utility assassin like Ekko is, but the tradeoff for his utility is mobility instead of damage. That way Talon would stand out more from the other assassins, and would have more impactful fallback patterns if he falls behind. What do you guys think?

Worst Mid EverMay 15, 20151 votes

talon ended last patch with a 57% winrate mid in plat+ solo q, he needs to be gutted

Eric SenpaiMay 15, 20151 votes

If you count his ult as a pseudo gap closer, you can say he has two ways to close distance.

64931067_DELMay 15, 20151 votes

I dont think Talon need the buff now. He is quite strong and meta-suitable right now.

CreationFlawMay 15, 20151 votes

Honestly, just a new passive, or if you just want to rework a little bit so instead of just flat one pass two pass damage on his ult, each blade deals separate damage, so you get rewarded for chase down ults more, that way while you do have the shitton of risk diving in and dying as soon as you take out the carry (at least have the time in cc teamfights), you're almost guaranteed to smash for tons of damage :o

Jamatrix666May 15, 20151 votes

As much as I want Talon's E to get some kind of buff (since it is currently pretty lackluster), an ammo system is far from being the right solution.

While it's true that many, many other assassins have multiple gap closers, think about this: Zed's, Kassadin's and LeBlanc are their ult, Katarina's and Kha'Zix's need a kill to reset and Fizz's costs 130 mana at rank 5. Talon's gap closer is the best type one (blink) and costs only 55 mana at rank 5. And I believe he's the only champion that can amplify his damage against an opponent, apart from Poppy.

Yes, all things considered, Cutthroat is a little bit sub-par compared to the other gap closers in the game, but with an ammo system, it's basically improving it by 100%. Imagine you go in by dodging a skill shot, the opponent flashes, you go in again dodging another skill shot, and you only used 70~110 mana and you still have your ult unlike Zed or LeBlanc... That's incredibly overpowered...

In my opinion, Riot should rather give Cutthroat some interaction with his other skill aspects; The Q bleeding or the W slow. For instance, using Cutthroat on a bleeding/slowed enemy refreshes the bleed/slow. Or stuns the opponent for 0.25 instead of slowing him (ignores the minimum movement speed cap and allows the cancellation of channeled skills for instance). Etc. I believe these suggestions make Cutthroat on-par with the other gap closers and give Talon a little bit move depth in his gameplay mechanics without making him too much strong.

iateurdoughnutMay 16, 20151 votes

They could make his e have some interaction with his sad excuse for a passive... He's not an auto attack champ and his full combo late game will have about 2 auto attacks total... At least if it worked with his q bonus DMG or with sheen passive... But riot says nope.

Vistha KaiMay 15, 20151 votes

Too bad Talon is actually pretty strong. Riot only removed his silence, not his sub-1 sec [Shift] + [Delete] assasination.

Mob Psycho 100May 16, 20151 votes

Dont forget he cant E to friendly units or wards like most can. Really making his Ult his only way to escape, if you haven't used it to kill someone already.

Personally, I'd like to see a new passive on him. Doing only 10% bonus damage is weak, not to mention AA with him is kinda useless half the time if you go to burst someone down.