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riot does not like tanks

Otter4Blue··3 votes·537 views

the total cost of anti tank weapons plus their effectiveness out doese tanky items by a large amoung:

last whisperer 2300g

randuin's omen 2850g

lost effectiveness against last whisperer with randuin's and base armor level 1, 700 gold.

70 armor = 1400g total armor level 1 with randuin's = 100 or so lost armor = 35

this means if the enemy bought a last whisperer on your randuin's you lost at least 700 gold for counter itemization. making your purchase of the oment be 2150 being worth less than the whisperer. there is also no mechanic for a tank to lower the effectiveness of a carry item.

further more, any additional armor you get has severely reduced value. this causes a situation that most tanks and bruisers who decied to go tanky and have no sustain built in are useless late game, all they are is a target to the enemy.

if the enemy builds black clever the value of armor goes so far down you might as well not buy it, your better off with health.

i played games where i got ahead as a tank and got left behind because i had no ridicules sustain/cc/utility. all i became was a target and i felt like my entire time was wasted because my armor was worth nothing now. i spend over 10,000 gold on armor and health and it was worth nothing.

my complaint is that is is very easy to counter a full tank build, by an adc, but a tank cant counter and adc.

note: i do not count thornmail, this is because the very build of any carry would normally include a counter to it lifesteal, and mr in qss, ga, or banshee's.

riot pls give tanks a chance make it so that it does not just take pure damage to win in the lategame 1v1.

btw this even occures with what is thought to be amazing tanks like nasus, a late game carry with one assister can take down nasus if the assister build the smallest amount of tankyness since nasus build no pen. in that game i lost 120 armor due to last whisperer making the thurnmail i bought useless.

solution: either make an item that counters the LW efect, or change thornmail passive to actually reduce the damage the damage taken by auto attacks by 30%

riot i dont like running for my life as a squishy and i dont like to be cast aside with all my gold wasted as a late game tank. pls fix this problem

edit: if tanks should lose 2100 gold late game they should get an early game bonus tankiness in the form of an item that only if your category or subcategory is tank you can buy

17 Comments

TheI3igDaddy5 votes

I'll say it before and I'll say it again; Riot's balance team was traumatized after League of Warmogs.

Now they have a vendetta against buffing tank items for fear of having a bunch of meatshields punching each other for a week straight. Granted, this IS a bit boring to watch, but they need to find a way to make tanky items work without turning it into the aforementioned again.

Otter4Blue2 votes

first i do not know and i don't thin anyone know when you said it in the first place. second i was thinking more of a temporary buff such as skirmisher blade grants but not tied to the jg.

im not saying make it so that tanks are unstoppable , but give them a way to make them jugggernaughts for a short donation. also im no talking about health, im talking about armor and how it loses value in the late game against carries. im saying that when you spent 40 min to get 18k worth gold items and they are 12k effective gold or less is a problem. this interaction of making the enemy lose gold efficiency does not occur with any other combination of items as significantly as LW and RO which causes the armor to be nearly worthless and in some cases actually worthless with comparison of what you paid for it.

also i once played when it was just two tanks left in a team fight me and the other guy, we fought for 5 sec, realized we will achieve nothing and left at the same time. this result is more likely to happen fi you have two tanks at the end they do nearly no damage to one another and so dont bother fighting, since it is pointless.

you only think in term of buffing current items, that is an option, but how about this, make an item that gives you a bonus percentage of armor and one for mr, make the percentage such that it is cost effective only if you have more than 300 armor or mr this causes the item to be sought by tanks and not bruisers as only tanks usually build that much armor or mr.

Knight SoIaire 3 votes

riot does not like tanks

you missed

riot wants the game to be more flashy and faster so riot fawours damage ower survivability

tanks got gutted in the process

Erockandroll1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hagane No Arashi,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rfQ5nn9n,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-03-02T05:41:12.194+0000)

you missed

riot wants the game to be more flashy and faster so riot fawours damage ower survivability

tanks got gutted in the process

keep in mind that tanks take maybe 3 seconds to kill when focused. What does that say about ADC/APC Survivability? I find in Ironic how people complain about X champion two shoting the ADC, like they forgot they were talking about the Glass cannon. But also keep in mind that the Glass cannon is also the only one who can actually work LW into their build. You get your assassin to burst down the enemy ADC, and all of a sudden, the tank begins to look a lot tankier.

Otter4Blue2 votes

you are missing the issue,

my issue is that you spend all game getting 26,000 gold worth of items and maybe 10,000 worth of value, so it feels wasted, in addition riot says they like counter play, so i get the adcs getting LW, but tanks have no counter to the counter, leaving them dead in teh water. this means that if your tank has some damage over cc, for example elise with two damage items, you are worse than and adc with on defensive item in usefullness because they make your other 4 ites mean less.

my issue lies in the lost value that i cant make the adc lose. i can't lower their crit rate, i can' lower thier damage outpus unless im a jg and that for only 3 sec, or if i have exaust which meant i cant take tp or ignite in lane to try and snowball, im stuk with the exause, which on most top laners is not very effective.

to conclude this response the adc, need only build the items to win making it that if the adc gets ahead there is no wayto deal with the damage but i a tank gets ahead you just rush LW and your fine, that is my issue

GaleWinUnleashed3 votes

Because tanks are not supposed to counter marksmen. Tanks counter assassins, which counter marksmen, which counter tanks. The key to making tanks actually stay alive is to properly assassinate the marksman first.

The game has become faster-paced that it used to be. Tanks still stay alive far longer than anyone else getting the same level of focus, and it is long enough for their team to take advantage of. It's still not a good idea for a team to focus the enemy tank; their effort is best directed elsewhere. But if they are going to focus the tank, they may as well do the job properly, and obliterate it as quickly as possible. The tank's job is to make sure they die for a cause, to organize the best advantage for their team by dying strategically. If they happen to survive the entire fight, then they did their job exceptionally well.

Otter4Blue2 votes

i accept that, and im not saying a tank should be able to kill a marksmen, but with the nerf of assassins ongoing marksmen are rising in power, with team comps going to start as they already have to peel for the marksman, but that is not my issue.

tanks should not be strong enough to kill marksmen alone if they build full tank, but on the other hand a marksman gains about 1600 gold on a full armor tank while the tank loses about 3000 gold due to one item. that item is LW.

thornmail will return more damage onto a carry if the carry has 30mr and the tank 333.3 armor due to LW this is impossible. in fact if you take the highest armor you can against LW you will have 430 armor before mitegation and 279.6 after. that is a loss of about half your armor. making you lose 150.4 armor making two of your armor items have no armor. note that those items are either TM or FH and any other 50 armor item.

this means that though a full tank build costs about the same as full marksman build there is about a 4600 gold difference due to one item.

this means that if ou build full tank against a carry the carry would be 4600 gold behind late game. this is a natural progression. i am asking for an item which has about that cost to compensate for this fact. to compensate for the fact that you wasted about 20 min of your time getting the worth of half an item for 4 times the gold.

marksmen should kill tanks but tanks should not die in less than 5 sec to a marksmen and a marksman only

Otter4Blue1 votes

Isn't favoring damage over survivability not liking tanks

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

we are speaking about motives here

so wanting a faster game isnt the same as hating tanks, despite both of them being bad for tanks

Otter4Blue1 votes

a game would take the same time if tanks are able to survive being hit ay and adc and a full utility support for more than 5 sec, in the late game.

i do not know if you ever played full tank after everyone got to 6 items. if you have utility your somewhat usefull, if you have base damage your midiocarly useful but can be ignored for a bit, and if you have niether cause riot nerfed both because you actually could do something late game going full tank, you are screwed and ignored. sometimes no mobility screws you since your kited to death, or just cant reach the target and the aoe damage of the enemy team gets you.

my issue is during those games you reach 5 items on most people those games when the values of everything you built goes to shit, because of an item, or an ability, or combination thereof.

i am asking for a counter counter item. an item or ability on an item that is only cost efficient in response to LW/BC?BotrK

riot wants counterplay, carryies build damage to survive the damage tanks build armor and mr, to kill the tanks the carrys build penetration to counter the penetration the tanks only option is to lose value on additional tank items or build damage which they may or maynot be able to use due to circumstances such as: kit, enemy kining potential, enemy kill thread.

if riot wants true counterplay they need to make a red queen contest, where everyone races to stand still.

i want to make the game have more possibilities, which means that now when tanks snowball they are unkillable not just do extra damage or become harder to kill.

IMO this will cause the game to be actually quicker since if a tank gets ahead he can get his team ahead more easily rather than just be ignored or cced while his team dies

Otter4Blue1 votes

a game would take the same time if tanks are able to survive being hit ay and adc and a full utility support for more than 5 sec, in the late game.

i do not know if you ever played full tank after everyone got to 6 items. if you have utility your somewhat usefull, if you have base damage your midiocarly useful but can be ignored for a bit, and if you have niether cause riot nerfed both because you actually could do something late game going full tank, you are screwed and ignored. sometimes no mobility screws you since your kited to death, or just cant reach the target and the aoe damage of the enemy team gets you.

my issue is during those games you reach 5 items on most people those games when the values of everything you built goes to shit, because of an item, or an ability, or combination thereof.

i am asking for a counter counter item. an item or ability on an item that is only cost efficient in response to LW/BC?BotrK

riot wants counterplay, carryies build damage to survive the damage tanks build armor and mr, to kill the tanks the carrys build penetration to counter the penetration the tanks only option is to lose value on additional tank items or build damage which they may or maynot be able to use due to circumstances such as: kit, enemy kining potential, enemy kill thread.

if riot wants true counterplay they need to make a red queen contest, where everyone races to stand still.

i want to make the game have more possibilities, which means that now when tanks snowball they are unkillable not just do extra damage or become harder to kill.

IMO this will cause the game to be actually quicker since if a tank gets ahead he can get his team ahead more easily rather than just be ignored or cced while his team dies

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

a game would take the same time if tanks are able to survive being hit ay and adc and a full utility support for more than 5 sec, in the late game.

but what about lcs big plays ?

we see 2 tanks fighting on screen and riot does not see lee sin doing an insec there

i want to make the game have more possibilities, which means that now when tanks snowball they are unkillable not just do extra damage or become harder to kill. IMO this will cause the game to be actually quicker since if a tank gets ahead he can get his team ahead more easily rather than just be ignored or cced while his team dies

what floats your boat ... i also would like tanks to be viable, but riot seems to not enjoy them

Irelia Bot2 votes

Honestly riot should jsut delete LW and void staff then reduce all armor and MR by about 15 %

Might have to change black cleaver a bit as a result but this would make tanks actually about tanking.

OhOkYea2 votes

Built full tank and yasuo was doing 2k auto attacks after armor. Defensive strategy might be fun, but it doesn't give flashy lcs style big plays.

Tsugaga2 votes

I agree, playing "tank" isn't fun at all. The top 18 or so most expensive items are all damage items, the best tank items are about 1,000 gold cheaper than carry items. Void Staff and Last Whisper reduce the value of MR/Armour by nearly half, so as a tank you have 10k spent in items but only 5k in value. Health is also useless due to Liandry's and BotRK, and the many % champs, especially Vayne. I like the days of a tank Cho tanking an entire team for 30 seconds. Tanks should be actual tanks, but just deal very little damage. There should also be better tank items, such as an active that reduces damage by a % for a few seconds, or a passive that increases armour/mr based on missing health.

Riot should really fix their classes in my opinion and rework champs to fit their intended class. You have Fizz being played as a bruiser, supports can be played as AP, tanks can be played as AD/AP and aren't even tanks if played as a tank. In most other games, you pick a character who has a specific class, and you play them as that class. A mage is squishy but deals massive magic damage, a marksman is squishy but has range and deals massive physical damage, a support is somewhat durable but is very weak with a lot of utility skills, a tank is very durable and hard to kill but is very weak, and a bruiser is durable with decent damage.

Otter4Blue1 votes

i did not think of damage mitagation item like the jg item skirmishing saver,

also could you give and up for the post so it does not just die

RogueWill1 votes

when I get ahead with a tank I just build damage and start to snowball. Years ago when tanks were unkillable you would play a tank to suffer all early and just blitz late game, now you have to focus on mid game, while the carries still don't have their items but you have all your cc and some takiness.

Make thormail apply grievous wounds or reduce life steal while attacking the tank, that way the adc can't just simply over heal the damage.

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