People saying after Lee buffs even bad Lee's will be good

I GANK LANES··2 votes·878 views

44% win rate, placed 43/43 LAST as jungle LeeSin

24 Comments

Mr Broken Wings5 votes

People just cry about lee sin on this board because its cool. They also act as if lee would be bad kitwise but this people probably main vladimir and call him healthy. Just ignore this board about opinions on lee or zed or riven, you wont get any unbiased opinions here anyway.

Slamurai Jack3 votes

I've never understood the massive hate boner these boards have for LeeSin. Do these people just never have the completely worthless ones on their team? Do they never see the enemy Lee Sins that can't get a single gank off for the first 10 minutes of the game? Because that shit happens a lot. Calling Lee Sin's kit overloaded is a joke at this point when we have champs like Ekko and Rek'sai and even if it was overloaded, all his skills with the exception of his ult are pretty mediocre. Lee is an AD Caster that does pitiful damage as the game goes on unless he builds tons of damage while still being less reliable than true assassins. Not that he can afford to build all that damage most games anyway due to how unsafe his kit is, forcing him to build tanky.

Yes, I just said that Lee Sin's kit was unsafe. Having methods to get yourself out of danger doesn't mean you're a safe champion, because you have to throw yourself head first into danger to do your job in the first place. Even with all of their mobility, Assassins are inherently unsafe because they are both squishy and required to go into melee range to do anything. This is especially true on Lee Sin because he is an early game champion that relies on snowballing. A Lee Sin that doesn't snowball early has his damage fall off massively in the mid game and is too squishy to really teamfight. All of Lee Sin's safety doesn't mean shit when he's a champion that loses if he goes even.

SEKAI1 votes

I've never understood the massive hate boner these boards have for . Do these people just never have the completely worthless ones on their team?

So a champ sucks when his/her player sucks, is that supposed to be something new? Or are you suggesting that only when Lee is strong even if the player is garbage is acceptable as being "strong"?

Yes, I just said that Lee Sin's kit was unsafe. Having methods to get yourself out of danger doesn't mean you're a safe champion, because you have to throw yourself head first into danger to do your job in the first place.

Yeah except most champs have to consider whether they use their dash as engage or disengage while Lee only needs to concern with whether or not his plays would be successful.

The whole Lee Sin defense sounds like 1 thing to me:

It's like saying rich people can still be miserable if they waste all their money on gambling.


EDIT:

A Lee Sin that doesn't snowball early has his damage fall off massively in the mid game and is too squishy to really teamfight.

The first part is called advantages and trade off, and the second part of this quote is a lie, Lee was never squishy at any given point of the game unless his player is tarded which isn't Lee's problem.

Slamurai Jack3 votes

Let me put it this way. Unless you are in the top 5% of Lee players, you are more likely to win by picking better champions. Lee Sin is both very snowball reliant and very unreliable, all for the payoff that he is slightly better than other junglers when played very well. If you want to pick an early game jungler and try to snowball the game out of reach, literally any other early game jungler would be better than Lee Sin. You can go on and on and on about all the options Lee Sin has and how safe he is and how high his ratios are, but the fact the matter is despite all of that, actually winning games with Lee Sin is quite difficult, as evidenced by the fact that even Lee Sin mains on average win barely 47% of the time. Even if the Lee Sin is really good at his champion, that is far less scary to me than a really good Eve, Nidalee, Rek'sai, or Elise. Lee sin may do a lot of things, but he doesn't do any of those things particularly well and he still falls off massively to pay for his below average generalist strengths.

SEKAI1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rdPBz6co,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2015-08-23T13:48:12.058+0000)

stuff.

Just read the stuff you typed out and decide whether or not Lee will never balanced kit wise and requires a rework to finally fix him.

Snowball champs are not reliable by default unsurprisingly, this applies to Shaco, Pantheon as well as many who shares the same category. However Lee is the most reliable of them all, and is consistently picked/banned 90% in all previous tourneys.

If a champ is garbage in low elo because no one knows how to use him but is broken in high elo where people actually know stuff, do you NOT think of the possibility that there is something seriously wrong with this champ?

There is a reason to why the famous Invoker got reworked when Dota transitioned to Dota2, guess what the reason was.

he still falls off massively to pay for his below average generalist strengths.

This is a lie, a below average generalist is someone like Sona. Lee is the pinnacle of generalists overpowering specialists in some of their fields, I am not sure whether or not you were even paying attention to the game when he completely and utterly dominated the game/jungle for 3 full years. It's only because his numbers are not cool atm and so we're saved from nightmares for now.

Slamurai Jack1 votes

Lee is more reliable than Pantheon or Shaco early game? Are we even playing the same game? I'm not afraid of being ganked early by Lee Sin unless my champion is absolutely terrible at escaping ganks, I'm terrified of both Pantheon and Shaco. I don't know why I'm even arguing this with you; you haven't played a single ranked Lee Sin game in the past 4 seasons, not to mention you're a solid 1000 elo below me. Lee Sin hasn't been "dominant" in nearly 2 years and is always inferior to whatever junglers are currently FOTM unless you're an absolute Lee Sin god. Lee Sin is garbage in low elo and slightly above average in super high elo and competitive play. That is hardly broken; that's just called being a high skill champion. Are you honestly afraid of enemy teams picking Lee Sin? Because when I love when the enemy team picks Lee Sin because he's fucking bad.

SEKAI1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rdPBz6co,comment-id=00030000000000000000,timestamp=2015-08-23T14:23:00.423+0000)

Lee is more reliable than Pantheon or Shaco early game?

Why wouldn't he be?

Atm, yeah he is trash and you aren't afraid of him which is 100% understandable.

True there have been FotM before that might do a few things slightly better than him, but they rise and fall very quickly. Unlike Lee, who is always up there and completely immune to meta shifts because his kit simply offers way too much to be ignored.

Imagine when he is actually strong like before, unlike say Shaco where if you see him coming to invade, you can fight him back silly, but when you see Lee coming, you can't do shiet which includes escaping.

Balance shouldn't only concern itself with what the game currently is, that's the #1 difference to set out a good and a bad balance policy. Lee has been a problem for years, it's only natural to just give him a rework instead of running an endless tweaking routine on a kit that is so binary it's either OP straight up trash.

Lee Sin is garbage in low elo and slightly above average in super high elo and competitive play

If he was only above average in high elo he wouldn't sport a 90% pick/ban and 50+% win rate in every tourney ever (not including last Worlds onwards). Facts don't lie, his kit is toxic to both the players and the balance team.

Just rework him already.

SEKAI2 votes

He is better to be never viable and get reworked eventually, than to be played and ruin everyone's fun.

  1. This guy single-handedly ruined LoL for a total 3 years only because he was viable, and being viable means he destroys everybody.
  2. When everybody got destroyed Riot created champs specifically made to play against him and they teamed up to destroy everybody else even harder, and fought each other when there were no one else left to oppress.
  3. Riot realised this was not a great sign and toned them down, while trying to preserve their usefulness and the effort was met with 0 result, same things repeated, again and again and again and again.
  4. Until meta shifted, they became no longer strong and dominate, LoL got a breath of new life.
  5. Now they are trying to bring Lee back again.
  6. Go to 1.?

The history most likely will just repeat itself afterwards if Riot doesn't break itself out of the loop by at least rework Lee first, let's wait and see.

I GANK LANES2 votes

Why would lee sin need a rework

SEKAI1 votes

{quoted}

Why would lee sin need a rework

Because his kit can not be balanced at all without being either trash or broken?

I am pretty sure that's enough of a reason to warrant a rework (let alone we already had 3 years to prove that), unless Riot is just planning to keep him OP or garbage for all eternity then oh well.

I GANK LANES2 votes

how is his kit broken

SEKAI1 votes

{quoted}

how is his kit broken

To give you an idea (not sure if you really have no idea but I'll bite), in previous tournaments he used to sport a pick/ban ratio of 90% which means if he wasn't picked, he would be banned. And in each of those tournaments, no matter how small they were, Lee would always maintain a 50+% win rate in all of them despite already having a 90% pick/ban ratio.

That means, whenever Lee was in a game, the team who had him was more likely to win. His presence alone was guaranteed enough to make the match unfair by a somewhat large margin from the get go without fail, even in tournament level. That's when he was viable, that's how problematic his kit is.

Sure you can argue that not everyone is some pro scene hot pants and game fundamentally can't be 100% balanced and I would be partially agreeing with you as those statements are not wrong. However what is wrong here is the notion of accepting something this blatantly broken in a game where the company should strive to make it as balanced as it possibly can, and instead just pass it off saying that "we don't need to care as we aren't pros". I find this particular mindset which a lot of people have, very depressing.

But back onto the point. It all comes down to Lee having way too much than he should chew up in his sleeves. So as a result, when his numbers are okay, he is broken and toxic to play against. And when his numbers are not okay, he becomes a garbage who happens to run very fast.

This should have alerted the rework crew ages ago, dunno what has been keeping them at bay.

I GANK LANES2 votes

i just honestly don't see what's so toxic in his kit. his q is a linear single colliding skill shot which has high base damage, it's strong yes. his w is a dash, A LOT of champs have dashes. if he's dashing over walls with wards i believe it's like a 13 second cooldown, which is high compared to a lot of other champs with similar moves.

his e is fine too, it's an aoe damage with a slow.

his ultimate is just that, so many other champs have just as powerful ones if not more. i could go on forever, gragas, amumu, sej, yasuo, malphite, etc.

while i do agree lee's whole kit synergizes very well with itself i don't see it broken, at all. this is coming from someone who played against lee many times, and have no complaints (i'm not one to complain about any champs at all really), and also someone who just picked him up just recently.

SEKAI1 votes

{quoted}

i just honestly don't see what's so toxic in his kit.

Too put everything in a nutshell without seeing me ranting on and on to no avail, I will just try to summarise all the problems his kit fundamentally has here.

Way too many options, which renders him virtually un-punishable unless the player himself simply has no idea. Everyone screws up when they have no clue, but not everyone can be a 1 man army when they have mastered a particular champ, as the game is designed that way since it's meant to be a team game. While on the other hand, Lee is 1 such case, at least when his numbers aren't just god awful and he is practically unplayable because of it.

Imagine say, Bard that can also deal tons of damage and move incredibly fast, yeah, you just thought of Lee Sin when he is viable (take it analogically and not literally).

Ulquiorra9951 votes

By having so much options at his disposal. Playing against a competent Lee is a complete nightmare.

You can't fight him due to crazy base damage and high scaling. You can't run from him. He has 2 mobility tools at his disposal, as well as a slow and a large knockback. Oh,a nd one of highest move speeds in game. And of course, no matter how bad he fucks up, it's very hard to punish him because, again, he has so many ways to disengage.

Basically, against good Lee, you either fight him on his terms or don't fight him at all. That said, Lee is not broken by definition; he could take some numerical changes and/or lose some parts of his kit and still be good.

He could lose some of base damage or scaling. His Q has 340 + 1.8 AD, which is one of the highest in both base and scaling - and that's without the %HP portion, mind you. His ultimate is a point-and-click hard CC on a very low cool down, and yet it's base damage and scaling rival those of nuke/execution ultimates.

He could use getting punished for fucking up. Lower his base move speed. Make him actually have to hit a skillshot instead of going "Fuck, I missed. I'm just going to outrun them anyway." We could increase his energy costs and buff his passive. Make him put himself into vulnerable position if he overuses his abilities. Increase the energy cost of first Q, reduce the energy cost of second Q. Or increase the cooldown if he misses Again, punish him for misplaying.

Also, he could use losing one of the biggest buffs he ever received - make him unable to jump to trinket wards. Ward jumping is way out of his power budget already - but note that I'm not asking to remove it. I'm just asking it to be removed from trinket wards. Sightstone and regular wards are fairplay - he uses up an item slot and gold for that. But trinket ward jumps are just bullshit - the trinket is essentially a second Flash for Lee.

jDVL20eCYs1 votes

im gald i don't have to dodge anymore if i get lee sin in my tema. now i can just cry a little bit and day "if you feed or is not 5/0 at 12 min lee i go afk". if lee is 0/1 at 10 min = "gg report lee for troll pick useless jungler"

I GANK LANES2 votes

what i don't understand is how people are sayin he's either broken or useless, if he's broken op right now why does he have a 44% win rate? sure more people are playing him because of the buffs, if you really wanna call them that, but even on 5.15 he was still only at like 46% and was placed 41 I wanna say out of 43

SEKAI1 votes

{quoted}

what i don't understand is how people are sayin he's either broken or useless, if he's broken op right now why does he have a 44% win rate? sure more people are playing him because of the buffs, if you really wanna call them that, but even on 5.15 he was still only at like 46% and was placed 41 I wanna say out of 43

Because he is useless right now, try buff him and he becomes broken.

That's exactly why his kit is problematic, and instead of tweaking eternally they might as well just rework him altogether, saves capital and energy.

I can't grasp why this simple concept some people just don't get it.

I GANK LANES1 votes

he's not useless, lmfao

3sTbGoP7ES1 votes

He honestly needs some nerfs. 200% ad ratio on an ult with 600 base damage + 21% HP damage is stupid and overpowered.

My nerf suggestion, damage on his R reduced from 200/400/600 (2.0 ad) to 150/250/350 (1.5 ad).

And win-rate doesnt mean anything, Wukong/Malzahar has 55% win-rate and yet they are one of the weakest champions.

UdoIkOSc4u1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hi im Dovahkiin,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rdPBz6co,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-08-23T10:57:19.490+0000)

He honestly needs some nerfs. 200% ad ratio on an ult with 600 base damage + 21% HP damage is stupid and overpowered.

My nerf suggestion, damage on his R reduced from 200/400/600 (2.0 ad) to 150/250/350 (1.5 ad).

And win-rate doesnt mean anything, Wukong/Malzahar has 55% win-rate and yet they are one of the weakest champions.

wukong maybe but malzhar definitely not

I GANK LANES4 votes

you lose all credibility with your last point saying wukong and malazhar are some of the weakest champs, lol

3sTbGoP7ES1 votes

They are pretty weak in the meta but have high winrates. Wukong is the worst jungler currently and Malzahar is just a non-mobile mage. Heimerdinger is also an example, non-meta champion but high win-rate. This is just proves that win-rate doesnt mean anything. Lee Sin has a low win-rate because in low elo people dont know how to play him. In challenger he would have like 52-55% win-rate because there people know how to use his overpowered kit.

I GANK LANES2 votes

its plat+, you count that as low elo?

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