Looks like Riot's Kog 'buff' made him worse

Rebonack·Oct 25, 2016·21 votes·1,197 views

Instead of a great execute and absolutely awful poke he's got mostly awful poke and a flaccid execute.

Awesome.

Are you guys ready to talk to people who actually understand what makes Kog work? Because it seems the live balance team is pretty clueless. But after the whole 'move attack speed from Q to W' fiasco we already knew that, didn't we?

I probably sound frustrated at this point. Mostly because I am. This dialog blackout on Kog is absolutely infuriating.

32 Comments

JulanusOct 25, 20169 votes

{quoted} This dialog blackout on Kog is absolutely infuriating.

This is what Riot does. They don't speak with those who actually play the champion, make major changes that don't actually fix much of anything while simultaneously destroying the way they feel and play, then completely disappear without a trace for months/years, pop in with a quick comment about how it didn't meet their expectations, and vanish once again.

The same thing happens with every major rework. Only difference between Kog'Maw and most other reworks is Kog'Maw got some reverts.

Pierce The VealOct 25, 20162 votes

Happening right now with Akali.

The Great DivideOct 26, 20162 votes

Malzahar : I still hope and pray for the day when riot says "We screwed up with him, we're going back"

RebonackOct 26, 20165 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Great Divide,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rcwE14Yn,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2016-10-26T02:54:52.432+0000)

: I still hope and pray for the day when riot says "We screwed up with him, we're going back"

Kog and Malz were my two most played champions.

Suffice to say I'm not a happy camper right now after Riot destroyed Dominion, too.

Masala ChaiOct 26, 20161 votes

Happening with Azir, Mordekaiser, Kalista, Malzahar woohio

warpenguin555Oct 25, 20164 votes

IKR. i hate how they just reverted the rework and said "eh, close enough, now hes healthier but trash, so its worth. Time to go give Vayne like 30 indirect buffs". And completely forgot that Marksmen are no longer what there were a year ago. They didn't even bother to remove the mana cost from his W. The only good things that came out of this whole thing is that Riot twice admitted they were wrong to rework him and Kog'Maw Jungle is no longer a thing.

RebonackOct 25, 20161 votes

{quoted}

IKR. i hate how they just reverted the rework and said "eh, close enough, now hes healthier but trash, so its worth. Time to go give Vayne like 30 indirect buffs". And completely forgot that Marksmen are no longer what there were a year ago. They didn't even bother to remove the mana cost from his W. The only good things that came out of this whole thing is that Riot twice admitted they were wrong to rework him and Kog'Maw Jungle is no longer a thing.

I wouldn't say all the reworks. There have been several that were pretty spot on.

But Riot could really stand to take more input from players, especially on champs with VERY low play rates that they might not otherwise have much data on.

warpenguin555Oct 26, 20161 votes

I didn't say all reworks though XD. Only mentioned Kog'Maws

DracocrashOct 26, 20163 votes

"oh no, they we messed up kog'maws balance, here have some plants" -riot2k16

Earl EulrichOct 26, 20163 votes

Koggy is perfectly fine, just learn to position. In a well played protect the kog comp he´s as broken as ever.

RebonackOct 26, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Eulrich,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rcwE14Yn,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2016-10-26T10:27:33.205+0000)

Koggy is perfectly fine, just learn to position. In a well played protect the kog comp he´s as broken as ever.

Not really?

Kog's mid-game power spike has been destroyed between the changes to his ult, Trinity, and Bork. That's what made him functional as the damage centerpiece for a high utility/low damage team. Because if his damage isn't great by the time team fights are starting in earnest, there's absolutely no point in building around him.

You're better off going wombo with MF or designing a team to set up for and enhance Twitch. Kog isn't bringing anything to the table that's valuable.

TeCoolMageOct 27, 20162 votes

MF has defensive tools like her MS boost + slow field and requires her combo to be set up, while Kog'Maw has all his damage easily accessible but needs peel. Comparing them is like comparing Leona and Janna, they belong in completely different comps.

Kog'Maw deals more DPS than vayne, has a longer range and benefits the entire team more, even though Vayne hasn't been in the best state, she hasn't been completely useless and neither has Kog. Honestly he just needs even better range on his W or base auto so he's not beaten by Twitch in so many areas.

RebonackOct 27, 20161 votes

{quoted}

MF has defensive tools like her MS boost + slow field and requires her combo to be set up, while Kog'Maw has all his damage easily accessible but needs peel. Comparing them is like comparing Leona and Janna, they belong in completely different comps.

Kog'Maw deals more DPS than vayne, has a longer range and benefits the entire team more, even though Vayne hasn't been in the best state, she hasn't been completely useless and neither has Kog. Honestly he just needs even better range on his W or base auto so he's not beaten by Twitch in so many areas.

Silver Bolts deals more damage than Bio-Arcane against anything with more than 120 resist, and that's including Kog's resist shred. With her Ult active and IE amping it, Vayne totally eclipses Kog's damage output by no small amount. Kog has an advantage over Vayne against soft targets when Vayne's Ult isn't up. And, of course, extra range never hurts.

Well.

It doesn't hurt Kog, anyway.

And I brought up MF not because she's similar to Kog in execution, but because they're both champions that function best when a team is built around them to allow them to function optimally.

When Kog has been good, his remake notwithstanding, he power spikes quite a bit earlier than Vayne and Twitch do. Weak early game, very strong mid game, strong late game. As opposed to weak early, decent mid, very strong late. That's what made the Juggermaw comp work since Kog's damage would kick in mid game when team fights are starting. Since Vayne and Twitch (used to) take longer than Kog to get rolling, they weren't as reliable to build a whole team around.

If that makes any sense

TeCoolMageOct 28, 20161 votes

Silver Bolts deals more damage than Bio-Arcane against anything with more than 120 resist, and that's including Kog's resist shred. With her Ult active and IE amping it, Vayne totally eclipses Kog's damage output by no small amount. Kog has an advantage over Vayne against soft targets when Vayne's Ult isn't up. And, of course, extra range never hurts.

Keep in mind that vayne has no runaan's synergy while Kog does, and Kog benefits team fights a lot more as mobility only brings himself forward, and true damage only benefits the dealer, while % resistance and slows help everyone

And I brought up MF not because she's similar to Kog in execution, but because they're both champions that function best when a team is built around them to allow them to function optimally.

Yeah but that's all they have in common. If building a comp around an ADC in general is what you want, sure, but the two comps have completely different niches.

Earl EulrichOct 27, 20161 votes

while i´d agree twitch is still semi-broken - twitch has only one window of power that has to be used fully, just he same as mf. With Koggy you consistently have the pressure everytime the w is up, so you can disengage and reengaeg at will in a well palyed comp and are far better at setting up and contesting objectives. so they are really pretty different beasts...and while koggy is not in hypercarry state at two items (i prefer going trinity->shiv/hurricans->IE atm), he certainly does enough dmg with just the two to handily teamfight - and then he just keeps on scaling.

SaiannaOct 25, 20162 votes

Somehow this reminds me of Cassiopeia rework... Brrrrrrrrr..

RebonackOct 25, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Somehow this reminds me of Cassiopeia rework... Brrrrrrrrr..

It has certainly managed to mobilize Kog players. Like Cass of old, there aren't that many of us but we aren't terribly happy with the state of things right now.

SaiannaOct 26, 20161 votes

I might be minority, but I grew ccustomed to Kogmaw-minigun W.

I'd love to see it back, but this time if it could be alot healthier.

Hope you don't mind if I'd throw my "perfect" Kogmaw here:

Passive - Kogmaw can move slowly while shooting. Levels: 1 - 6 = 20% of BASE speed (so MS buffs wont make him into speedy turret. Those numbers are fixed) 7 - 12 = 40% speed 13+ = 60% speed Like a slow altillery. He can walk in all directions while continuosly AAing

Q - skillshot. Similar to what he has now. 10-25% Armor/MR shred for 3s + 1s for every 5~ AAs W - Adds range and doubles AS (max 5.0) + 1% current hp per AA. Decent AP/AD ratios (which cannot go further than 4-5% 400~ad / 500 ap). ALSO it deals 0,4 damage on normal AA (doesn't include on hit) E - unchanged R - Similar to what he has now, but:

Further he shots smaller the AOE (AOE Shrinks after 50% range untill small dot. gotta be super precise)
Further/smaller the AOE = harder it hits (AOE dmg ramp up starts at 75% range and up)
R being a little bit more spammable (less mana consumption, but not by much)

What's gone / what's new:

his kamikazee passive (even though I love it, it's power is no-joke ultimate tier)
he no longer gains any AS in abilities (Q etc). he gains alot more AS per level up (~40-60% to level

Ok, Why W deals only 0,4 and not 0,55 as it "used to". It's because he'll gain alot more AS than what he did before. He gains alot more AS per level than others. So his start will be weaker, as he's more level reliant, but in mid game he'll catch up, and by late game he should overpower enemy ADC, by simply AAing (he hits 3 times 0,4 =1,2 ad, while enemy adc gets 1 shot = 1.0 ad)

Think of it as Jayces 3-shots but spread on 18 levels ;P

Was thinking of making W into toggle. But then.. mana consumption etc.. How would I balance kogmaw who'd fire 200 AAs in 1 teamfight...

Q gets small bonus which is prolonging duration of debuff the longer he shots. It kinda seems fair. I hope...

ultimate is meant to promote sniping. better you are more dangerous you become. ofc difficulty increases by alot.

Also if you wanna make sure to hit enemy with ultimate with standart AOE, you have to get closer = some counterplay for enemies to catch and beat kog where he stands.

What do you think?

CorruptedScytheOct 26, 20161 votes

How would you control this? Right click your enemy then move like normal?

SaiannaOct 26, 20161 votes

I'm not that smart :P

But I think somethink like this yea. Or maybe enemies that were either hit by your Q or R to be marked? Hmmm Not sure

RebonackOct 26, 20161 votes

{quoted} What do you think?

My general thought about the double attack speed effect is that it makes OnHit items really, really hard to balance. I'm really not sure if that kind of functionality is good for the game. If Kog had some sort of ranged version of Shyvana's Q or his attacks Phantom Hit on crit, though? That would probably be easier to balance around. And do keep in mind that Kog's immobility during W is part of the reason he got reverted, since apparently he was useless in LCS. (Personally, I think trying to balance Kog around LCS is absurd, but whatever).

Being able to move and attack at the same time is dangerous, even at a reduced speed. And on the toggle side of things, Riot has made it pretty clear that they want Kog to be a 'go button' Marksmen to help distinguish him from Jinx who has more reliable range, but has to ramp up with takedowns to really get her damage rolling.

All in all, I don't think machine gun Kog is ever coming back. I think it did a decent job of conveying the 'Kog eats through anything in front of him' feel, but the cost to OnHit itemization was just too high.

SaiannaOct 26, 20161 votes

Hmm I see.

Well, I hope Riot will add some champion with this 5.0 AS mechanic, cause it was fun. And balancing isn't all that hard. All one needs to do is simply cut in half it's OnHit damage and see what happens, and buff/nerf depending on the outcome.

TheMinezOct 25, 20161 votes

I think it is because they have very little data after the anti-rework because nobody plays him.

I flat out quit Kog after his anti rework when I've got over 180K mastery.

SpecterVonBarenOct 26, 20161 votes

I actually found it's better than before. It's never been a skill designed for execution and I've found the damage increase (What little there was) to make it not feel like a waste of a skill point.

It's still not very good anyway but I do think the change made it better.

The DeckownerOct 26, 20161 votes

I have been playing kog without using his q or ult, am I doing something wrong kappa?

LadyRenlyOct 26, 20161 votes

Riot botched his rework, what made you think they'd know how to buff him?

RebonackOct 26, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Riot botched his rework, what made you think they'd know how to buff him?

Misplaced hope, I guess?

MrWasjigOct 26, 20161 votes

Personally I'd call it frothing bug-eyed self delusion to put any hope in Riot NOT fucking shit up :P

CipseOct 26, 20161 votes

I actually like the new Kog. 40 mana R casts and reducing the stack duration to 8 seconds is a buff in my eyes.

Then again, I play AP Kog.

RebonackOct 26, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I actually like the new Kog. 40 mana R casts and reducing the stack duration to 8 seconds is a buff in my eyes.

Then again, I play AP Kog.

It made AP Kog's poke a little bit better (though not by much). However, it was a pretty major hit to his burst combo (QER), especially against soft targets. Give and take for him, though a nerf without question on AD Kog. I've missed kills I would have easily needed otherwise and his R still feels like a waste of mana.

The Yetii RiderOct 26, 20161 votes

There's literally 0 point in addressing Kog'maw. Riot could make him the most busted auto attack sniping monster in the game and the second the preseason hits with the nerf to Rylai's, buffs to assassins and Garen, and the return of crit builds on carries, Kog will be absolute trash.

We are moving into an assassin meta, which means immobile carries like Kog will be garbage no matter their numbers.

RebonackOct 26, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rcwE14Yn,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2016-10-26T18:11:05.525+0000)

There's literally 0 point in addressing Kog'maw. Riot could make him the most busted auto attack sniping monster in the game and the second the preseason hits with the nerf to Rylai's, buffs to assassins and Garen, and the return of crit builds on carries, Kog will be absolute trash.

We are moving into an assassin meta, which means immobile carries like Kog will be garbage no matter their numbers.

That's certainly possible. But it doesn't make it any less true that Riot managed to make Kog worse with what they intended as a buff to him. I'm mostly just hoping that Riot would open up some dialog with Kog players so we can give some insights into things that would actually make him successful.

My main goal right now is to hammer the fact that Kog needs a strong mid game for Juggermaw to work into Riot's head. Since apparently they're unaware of this from all the Kog-related comments I've read.