Transcendence is balanced and Black Cleaver is balanced.

Bârd·Nov 13, 2017·93 votes·13,995 views

It's just the combination of the two that makes this broken.

Don't go gutting either of them, just make the CDR on unique

106 Comments

Mega NoobNov 13, 201740 votes

What makes broken what? that extra 25 ad from 20 cdr? Why not get 20 lethality instead? And some usefull passives? Like item 3814 or item 3812 What a nonsense, paying 3k for 65 ad and 400 hp.

Omnem OccidoNov 13, 201717 votes

Um... it's kinda the defacto tank shredding item used by juggernauts to absolutely ruin their laning opponents. It also gives them movement speed for dealing physical damage, something juggernauts need.

It's THE class defining item.

Automated RivenNov 13, 201732 votes

But stacking them doesn't bust tanks harder. I have played a few games with cleaver stacking and it simply isn't that terribly strong. It's just super safe.

RISE Shlack123Nov 13, 201711 votes

You're right - the passive doesn't stack. What's making the Black Cleaver stacking so oppressive is that assassins can stack them, get tanky, and still get bonus AD from Transcendence and the AD on Black Cleaver, and then be hard to kill while stomping squishies who can't easily kill them anymore.

PoskeNov 13, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Omnem Occido,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rQkzk5aT,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2017-11-13T08:22:10.633+0000)

Um... it's kinda the defacto tank shredding item used by juggernauts to absolutely ruin their laning opponents. It also gives them movement speed for dealing physical damage, something juggernauts need.

It's THE class defining item.

Its not a juggernaut item its more of J4/Riven item

CorvidNov 13, 201718 votes

{quoted}

Its not a juggernaut item its more of J4/Riven item

Darius... garen.... ????????

Iota ThetaNov 13, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Darius... garen.... ????????

Can add Illaoi to that list.

WolfeurNov 14, 20172 votes

Urgot?

EedatNov 13, 20173 votes

True, but the point of this thread is buying multiple BCs. The armor shred does not stack. You get the same amount of armor shred with 1 BC as with 5 BCs.

Auz the RipperNov 13, 20175 votes

It's because the Black Cleaver is one of the few complete AD item that is by itself gold efficient on stats alone, even without transcendence.

Faceroll TacticsNov 13, 20175 votes

But just because it's gold efficient doesn't mean it's worth stacking the and losing the gold worth that Rage and Shred do.

Rage is worth 300 gold if you're consistent with it, Shred is worth over 1000 if you get 5 stacks on a tank

PB4UAMENov 13, 20171 votes

Every single ADC item is more than gold efficient from stats alone. . . Before you even account for the multiplicative value of their stats.

Pierce The VealNov 13, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Every single ADC item is more than gold efficient from stats alone. . . Before you even account for the multiplicative value of their stats.

Yep, and yet people are complaining that people MIGHT stack black cleavers.

I'm more worried about some ADC going something like essence reaver, phantom dancer IE, triforce, black cleaver+random boots or another crit item. Fast as heck, and yet tons of AD, has shred built in, and furthermore is tanky as heck. Only thing missing is lifesteal and you could easily make the last item a death's dance to just give people cancer.

RiotRiotRepertoirNov 13, 201722 votes

This seems like the likely adjustment to make.

One other consideration worth making is if the effect on Transcendence is properly tuned outside of the "abuse stacking a bunch of the same 20% CDR item" case. We'll have to look into that part as well as Runes tuning carries on into the coming months.

RaxistaichoNov 14, 201713 votes

Honestly I'd suggest making cdr on every item unique, just to make sure this doesn't happen again.

HäxelNov 14, 20173 votes

on Items that bulds into another items it already is unique. And most items are just not worth stackign for their unique passives and the stats they give (or even unique actives). And the other ones already have unique cdr (nashors/warmogs). And Bc is like these 2 cause it gives you good stats: Much ad and much health. i mean if you realy just want to stack spirit visages while there are plenty of mr AND Cdr items, well than you already waste potential. No need to change that cd into unique cdr. If you just buy frozen hearts you will have much cdr for transcendence and much armor, but literaly nearly no health AND you are weak to magic damage.

StoryDuckNov 14, 20176 votes

I've often wondered, why not just make all finished items unique? Is there a reason for allowing players to build 2-4 of the same finished item? The only times I see this is if there is a game breaking thing like now or when people are trolling.

Pierce The VealNov 14, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I've often wondered, why not just make all finished items unique? Is there a reason for allowing players to build 2-4 of the same finished item? The only times I see this is if there is a game breaking thing like now or when people are trolling.

Because it honestly wouldn't be fair.

The black cleaver stacking is nowhere near as viable as people make it out to be. And on the other hand, removing all finished items stacking would prevent people from coming up with interesting strats.

StoryDuckNov 14, 20171 votes

Could you give me an example of when it wouldn't be fair?

I'm sorry but I just can't figure out any finished item that you need to or ever should build 2-4 of. To clarify, when I say finished item I mean items like item 3102 item 3174 item 3742 and not items that build into things like item 3144 item 1042 item 3801

Pierce The VealNov 14, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Could you give me an example of when it wouldn't be fair?

I'm sorry but I just can't figure out any finished item that you need to or ever should build 2-4 of. To clarify, when I say finished item I mean items like and not items that build into things like

Currently there's no real case where you might want to stack the same item except for example maybe nashors tooth with transcendence. The issue here isn't that. The issue here is even in this one case, it's not even strong and moreso lackluster than anything else. So preventing stacking items would only actually prevent people from doing fun stupid shit/trying weird shit. Hence it is enforcing a certain gameplay rather than anything else. More power to the player is always my motto. Next thing you know we're demanding Riot to mail people pacifiers that they must suck on to play this game.

StoryDuckNov 14, 20171 votes

How does building item 3153 create more fun for someone other then they are trolling? If you want more fun combining additional items with unique passives is what does it not stacking 4 of the same item. You have kind of proved my point, the only time people do this is to troll or because the system breaks the item to give you an advantage. What item do you build 4 of to have more fun with that isn't trolling?

item 3083 ? item 3060 ? item 3156 ? item 3074 ? item 3285 ?

There really isn't any item that building 4 of makes it more fun except in the cases of trolling. For the record item 3070 is not a finished item so you can still up when you team loses.

What does happen is occasionally certain items can be stacked up to do stupid stuff. Remember supports building item 3504 ? There have been many situations in which an item is given too many stats and people just buy 4 of them to take advantage of it. I would also add that making finished items unique would make it easier for new players to buy items as they can't accidentally buy the same item twice clearing up purchasing a bit for them. many new players see item 3072 with the unique +20% life steal and think they can't get anymore lifesteal. Not to mention that used to be an item that people purchased 4 of to have 80% lifesteal on auto attacks. Draven was a nightmare then.

This doesn't really detract for unique builds either it just prevents trolling. Now if there was a genuine item added that was meant to be made multiple times it would be different. It would also be easier just to give it the ability to be built multiple times rather then combing through all items to find one that is unhealthy to be stacked.

V DNov 14, 20171 votes

{quoted}

How does building create more fun for someone other then they are trolling? If you want more fun combining additional items with unique passives is what does it not stacking 4 of the same item. You have kind of proved my point, the only time people do this is to troll or because the system breaks the item to give you an advantage. What item do you build 4 of to have more fun with that isn't trolling?

? ? ? ? ?

There really isn't any item that building 4 of makes it more fun except in the cases of trolling. For the record is not a finished item so you can still up when you team loses.

What does happen is occasionally certain items can be stacked up to do stupid stuff. Remember supports building ? There have been many situations in which an item is given too many stats and people just buy 4 of them to take advantage of it. I would also add that making finished items unique would make it easier for new players to buy items as they can't accidentally buy the same item twice clearing up purchasing a bit for them. many new players see with the unique +20% life steal and think they can't get anymore lifesteal. Not to mention that used to be an item that people purchased 4 of to have 80% lifesteal on auto attacks. Draven was a nightmare then.

This doesn't really detract for unique builds either it just prevents trolling. Now if there was a genuine item added that was meant to be made multiple times it would be different. It would also be easier just to give it the ability to be built multiple times rather then combing through all items to find one that is unhealthy to be stacked.

item 3027 item 3003

However, I wouldn't do that, but to each their own.

StoryDuckNov 14, 20171 votes

That would be a troll build sir. Either that or a very uninformed build that a new player might think is good but it really isn't.

Pierce The VealNov 15, 20171 votes

{quoted}

That would be a troll build sir. Either that or a very uninformed build that a new player might think is good but it really isn't.

Uh. Clearly you haven't been around long enough.

StoryDuckNov 15, 20171 votes

No, I've been playing since season 3. I'm in diamond and every time I think abut this the more I'm convinced it would benefit new players. Perhaps you like to troll and make very subpar builds but teaching new players this creates poor expectations.

Pierce The VealNov 15, 20171 votes

{quoted}

No, I've been playing since season 3. I'm in diamond and every time I think abut this the more I'm convinced it would benefit new players. Perhaps you like to troll and make very subpar builds but teaching new players this creates poor expectations.

Being allowed to play as you wish and learn that way is great. Being forced into shit, no matter how optimal it is, is shitty.

StoryDuckNov 15, 20171 votes

There is over 200 items in LOL so what are you being forced into?

Pierce The VealNov 15, 20171 votes

Except the freedom to do that is crucial. What's wrong with being allowed to do stupid shit? There have been times it stuck. Like double morellonomican.

Being forced to play a certain way just because is toxic. Playing it that way cause it's optimal is fine, but when you're actually barred from making the decision, we have a problem.

StoryDuckNov 15, 20171 votes

No one is being forced to build a certain way, not one. Have you counted the number of items in LOL at this time? There are over 200 items in lol and you're telling me you don't have the freedom to be creative in your builds if you can't build 4 of the same finished item? That is what we call denial sir. You just don't want anything to change, you're not willing to admit you could be wrong, that or you just want to be able to troll. No one has been able to produce one example of when this would be a good thing and the only times that the meta supports 4x of the same item is when something is not balanced correctly and riot needs to patch it out. If you can provide me with one example of when it would be a good practice to build 4 of the same finished item I will retract my statement but the fact is no one can provide such a thing because making all finished items unique is a good idea.

Jerry SeinfeIdNov 14, 20171 votes

Singed pre passive rework could go item 3027 . Again not "optimal" but it was possible to pull off.

which is the whole point, dumb shit that's "viable" is fun, this is a game so i wanna have fun.

that's all BC stacking is a gimmick.

DeadUnbornNov 14, 20172 votes

If staking the same item twice outside of entry level items like tome and long sword is supposed to be gold inefficient, then every time a champ is able to do it the result is usually busted (I remeber Azir buying 2 morellos for the CDR + attack speedcombo back in the say).

I guess my question is: why not make it so that end tier items cannot be purchased more than once? This means you can't buy 2 boots, 2 sunfire capes, 2 BC and such.

I understand you use "unique passives" to have this to a certain degree, but to me right now it seems like you are beating around the bush instead of cutting the problem by the roots

xxxDogmanxxxNov 14, 20171 votes

Nah, just make the CDR unique if you really don't want people to stack item 3071 . Transcendence is fine, since it only gives on average 12 AD in the mid game, and maybe 24 AD if you really make an effort to build for it and forgo having other, more useful items.

Yma SNov 14, 20171 votes

"Stacking CDR is abuse"

lol no, not when every squishy mage is henpecked forced into rushing morellos, and every AD bruiser rushes Black cleaver.

Jesus is SaviorNov 15, 20171 votes

{quoted}

This seems like the likely adjustment to make.

One other consideration worth making is if the effect on Transcendence is properly tuned outside of the "abuse stacking a bunch of the same 20% CDR item" case. We'll have to look into that part as well as Runes tuning carries on into the coming months.

Is it even worth changing? I heard it was a troll build. ie: it works, but it's not actually as efficient as people think it is.

PhaseDivesNov 13, 201715 votes

its not even broken too its just viable

Akali is SO HOTNov 13, 20179 votes

The Cleaver stacking isn't really even that broken imo. I've seen it in a few of my games and the person doing it didn't pop off and go 30/0 or something like that. It's viable, but it's not super op or broken. No reason to change it tbh.

RISE Shlack123Nov 13, 20174 votes

It's not a build that's going to just curb-stomp everyone, no. But it is a build that makes assassins like Zed or Talon able to get more raw AD, HP, and one bit of armor shred, and get bonus AD from Transcendence. Something doesn't have to be hotfix-worthy to be overpowered. Stacking Black Cleavers with Transcendence gives you more value from the items even without the unique passives stacking. And making Zed's HP pool to around 4k while still being able to put out similar damage on immobile squishies is not a balanced state of affairs, especially given how cheap Black Cleavers are compared to other damage items assassins would normally build.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgbZNCzbqOM

Akali is SO HOTNov 13, 20175 votes

I'd much rather have other good passives and actives from other items instead of just getting some bonus AD from stacking the same item. Just because an item is gold efficient, doesn't mean it's slot efficient. The build is still decent, but it is nowhere near broken.

DuskDaUmbreonNov 13, 20175 votes

I don't think the two combined are actually broken. You'd actually get more damage if you picked up Lethality. Maybe item 3147 item 3142 and 3x item 3071 would be strong, but even then it's not that great a combo. You'd actually probably end up getting more damage by stealing IE and Bloodthirster, alongside BC, Duskblade, and Youmuu's, and throwing in item 3158 for a bit more CDR damage.

Honestly, this rune is only really helping enchanter supports. Works well when every goddamned enchanter item has CDR. Gives you a nice extra boost of damage and healing as Sona .

Although it would be smart to make BC's CDR unique now, just to be safe.

TartarosNov 13, 20175 votes

All they have to do is make the 20% CD unique

Solidair3Nov 13, 20175 votes

Is this even broken? I've seen it a few times but not with crazy results.

I imagine the solution they'll go with is in fact the one you've outlined, however. This seems to be the only major abuse case.

MonkeyMadnessNov 13, 20174 votes

I'm kind of a fan of locking items such that you can only ever have 1. I know that this will ruin a very popular build ( item 3070 ) but I think it's for the best.

AtanchanNov 13, 20172 votes

How would you build Dirk or Warhammer, then? Or Recurve or Stinger?

MonkeyMadnessNov 13, 20172 votes

I mean finished items. Build all the long swords you want, but anything with a unique passive should be restricted.

ShadòwNov 13, 20173 votes

inb4 Riot first guts the item and then the mastery, leaving both in an useless state instead of just making the CDR unique.

kile147Nov 14, 20173 votes

I was curious so I thought I'd do the math on some high CDR builds.

Cleaver Stacking item 3071 item 3158 Cost: 15,900 Gold

2000 HP 200 AD 110% CDR

With transcendence gives 120% and converts to X=1.2(120-40)= 96 AD, Giving a grand total of 296 AD

Stacking the Cleavers seems pretty gold efficient for giving yourself a lot of health and AD and not much else.

Semi-Standard Assassin Build item 3812 item 3071 item 3156 item 3142 item 3147 item 3158 Cost: 16,450 Gold

400 HP 45 MR 280 AD 40 Lethality 70% CDR

With transcendence gives 80% and converts to X=1.2(80-40)= 48 AD, Giving a grand total of 328 AD

This build gives you ok durability and a lot of damage against targets of varying armor values. Costs about 500 Gold more than Cleaver stacking.

You could also swap in item 3800 instead of item 3142 for

Bruiser-ish Build Cost: 16,200 Gold

800 HP 300 Mana 30 Armor 45 MR 225 AD 20 Lethality 70% CDR

With transcendence gives 80% and converts to X=1.2(80-40)= 48 AD, Giving a grand total of 273 AD

This gives less flat health than the cleaver build but it probably offers similar if not better durability with resistances, death's dance/Hexdrinker passive, and lifesteal factored in. Comparable flat AD with a bonus burst from Duskblade and its lethality, and it gives an engage/slow. 300 Gold more than cleaver stacking.

Personal Conclusion:

Cleaver stacking is a little overrated. Main issue I see is that you have flat health with no resistances meaning that you will still get shredded pretty quickly. Flat penetration is still going to be very effective against you while you are also susceptible to effects from item 3036 item 3153 item 3151 , and have no way to sustain back up. You could put together a better build with more damage, durability, and utility, tailored to suit the team you are up against, by mixing and matching tank/bruiser items with assassin ones. Cleaver stacking is absolutely viable, but it's probably not ideal in any situation. I don't really see much of a reason to remove this interaction aside from preventing mindless, inefficient builds.