It's not free if it costs them part of their kit lol.
If that's the case, why do champions get free base armor, base HP, base MR, base AD? Why don't they have to buy all of it?
I mean really, it's silly to say a champion gets free 'x,' please stop.
Thank you.
avilus31 votesNothing is free. Some people say Aatrox has a free revive.
His base stats were blown half to hell for that motherfucking revive.
YossarianSensei8 votesIt's relatively 'free' if they simply have more crap in their kits than other champions
Inb4 "jinx has no free stats"
IcyPepper8 votesWell, to be fair, Jinx has the lowest attack speed of her class (the fourth lowest in the entire game).
She really relies on her Q.
ChoGathsSon30 votesIt's relatively 'free' if they simply have more crap in their kits than other champions
Inb4 "jinx has no free stats"
It's relative because you're comparing champions with completely different kits in the first place, so really it's not free.
For example, Nasus has Lifesteal as his passive. Jax doesn't. Jax has a free ramping up AS boost for a passive, Nasus doesn't. Why does Nasus get free Lifesteal but Jax doesnt? Why does Jax get free ramping up AS but Nasus doesn't? Conclusion, asking the question why is it "free" is stupid as fuck because it costs both of them their PASSIVES.
Ellphi15 votesYou can predict the approximate value of a Champion's kit. Nobody is literally asking why "Graves gets a free dash" - they're asking why does a certain champion bring much more to the table than other champions.
There's no need to bash on the particular wording of a question. There are certainly champions that simply have more value in their kits than others - that's why they're top picks.
ChoGathsSon13 votesYou can predict the approximate value of a Champion's kit. Nobody is literally asking why "Graves gets a free dash" - they're asking why does a certain champion bring much more to the table than other champions.
They don't, different champions do different things.
In reference to that thread, Graves gets a dash because he's short ranged. Ori has long ranged abilities and can CC aoe utility damage your team. Your first mistake is comparing a utility based mage to an ADC. Even then, comparing ADCs to other ADCs gets stupid. Different elements of kits shine in different metas. Kog can be extremely strong in this meta because of his W and Q. But Kog is complete shit in any assassin meta because of his immobility.
Ellphi13 votesIf certain champions don't bring more power, then why are their God-Tier picks and Trash-Tier picks? Obviously the meta determines what stats are more valuable, but in the end a champion's strength is still a quantifiable value. God-tier vs Trash tier is certainly not based off of arbitrary 'feelings'
Again, it's foolish to assume all champions have the same value because it's definitely not the case.
ChoGathsSon7 votesIf certain champions don't bring more power, then why are their God-Tier picks and Trash-Tier picks? Obviously the meta determines what stats are more valuable, but in the end a champion's strength is still a quantifiable value. God-tier vs Trash tier is certainly not based off of arbitrary 'feelings'
Again, it's foolish to assume all champions have the same value because it's definitely not the case.
Every champion brings a certain level of strength and power to the table that's unique to their own kit. Some picks are constantly strong and safe, others aren't and this can typically be due to the meta which is influenced by itemization, champion balancing and game mechanics in general.
Let's do this: you give me an example of a "God tier" and "trash tier" champion and I'll tell you what's stopping the trash tier champion from being God tier and what's making the God tier champion God tier.
Ellphi4 votesGod Tier = Mid Lane Cho because he has an oppressive laning phase (which is valuable), sustains well (valuable), snowballs very hard (valuable), infinite waveclear (valuable) and his tankiness + CC is also incredibly valuable in the current meta, and he also does a ton of damage to boot
Trash Tier = Mid Yasuo because his early game is crap (not valuable), his sustain is crap (not valuable), he's incredibly squishy (not valuable), his base damage is bad (not valuable), he's almost entirely melee (not valuable), he's easy to shut down (not valuable), he has a high skill requirement (not valuable), he's weak in the current meta (not valuable), and he has no waveclear (not valuable)
So basically for Yasuo to be on the same Tier as Cho, he'd need all these STATS that Cho has but Yasuo doesn't have - or he would need a shift in the meta so that the value of his STATS exceed those of Cho's
ChoGathsSon14 votesGod Tier = Mid Lane Cho because he has an oppressive laning phase (which is valuable), sustains well (valuable), snowballs very hard (valuable), infinite waveclear (valuable) and his tankiness + CC is also incredibly valuable in the current meta, and he also does a ton of damage to boot
Trash Tier = Mid Yasuo because his early game is crap (not valuable), his sustain is crap (not valuable), he's incredibly squishy (not valuable), his base damage is bad (not valuable), he's almost entirely melee (not valuable), he's easy to shut down (not valuable), he has a high skill requirement (not valuable), he's weak in the current meta (not valuable), and he has no waveclear (not valuable)
Yasuo is actually strong at the moment. His early game is still relatively weaker but he's actually in a good spot. His shield is what makes up for his lack of durability, which is a good design. He doesn't really have innate sustain as much as he has his shield to absorb harass. His base damages aren't bad lol. He is basically entire melee but he's mobile, not a bad thing. Easy to shut down is relative to his matchup but I'd say he can also easily get back into a game with a few kills. High skill requirement lol? Yes he does but that isn't relevant. He actually could have strength in this meta since tanks are strong, which all bring knock ups of sorts and botrk is a strong staple in his build path, not to mention his bonus armor pen. His wave clear is a designed weakness, I wouldn't say its bad.
Not sure this is working out lol.
Look man, champions have different functions with their designs. Comparing raw power to raw power is stupid because a champion is rarely picked for just raw power, it's because they generally perform something extremely well in a certain meta. I don't know what else to tell you, comparing champions directly is generally pretty stupid. You don't need to compare champions to know when a champion is strong, weak etc.
Ellphi4 votesIn champ select I'm forced to make a choice to pick X over Y. Why would I pick Y when I somehow 'know X is strong and Y is weak'? Ultimately I'm making a comparison.
I pick Cho mid because he has more raw power than Yasuo, as well as almost every other mid lane possibility. Period.
Davy Crockett7 votes
'Sup.
SQD D2 votes
Wrecks your argument. All he brings to the table is raw power. He will never fit a meta and will always be outclassed.
ChoGathsSon4 votes[{quoted}](name=SQD D,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rNTrPEh7,comment-id=000300010000000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2015-05-15T16:09:11.492+0000)
He brings burst and CC
He's also hidden freelo atm
But for competitive play, he's just considered too inconsistent by pros
YossarianSensei1 votesOh so it's like you're saying the Pros prefer Orianna because she offers similar burst and CC but is also a safe pick, more consistent, and offers more utility....
HMMM.....
Troy2426213 votesHere's the hole in that logic. Some champions perform the exact same role with similar weaknesses and one phases out the other. The term "Outclassing" comes into play here.
This is what people typically mean by "Free stuff": Sometimes a champion has strengths tacked on that they don't need to be on-par with their competition, and because they have them anyways, they outclass other champions at their job.
Chilroy5 votesHere's the hole in that logic. Some champions perform the exact same role with similar weaknesses and one phases out the other. The term "Outclassing" comes into play here.
This is what people typically mean by "Free stuff": Sometimes a champion has strengths tacked on that they don't need to be on-par with their competition, and because they have them anyways, they outclass other champions at their job.
Outclassing, I feel is a forced issued. Team-play, or Competitive teams usually have champion compositions which weigh the benefits and downsides of 5 champions working together. Saying Y's CC last longer than X's CC, but then again Y brings this, that X doesn't have. SoloQ outclassing relies on how much can Y champion do, without worrying if V, W, X, Z champions have such & such attributes.
Sion might outclass Zac as tank, but Zac certainly has more mobility. Just because someone does one's job better, doesn't mean that they'll push other champions out. (Though it can still happen)
Sir ArmaMalum6 votesAgain, it's foolish to assume all champions have the same value because it's definitely not the case.
I agree, however as per the rest of your comment here a champion's power level is not quantifiable to a useful scale. Yes, you can establish an order based off of the numbers and a few liberties to 'values' of certain aspects of kits, but until you have a specific number (i.e. Riven is 786 and Teemo is 566) that's relatively accepted as fair an ordering of specific points is actually qualitative.
God-tier and trash-tier champions change with every patch with a few exceptions (i.e. Lee) and drastically change based on what skill level you're referencing. Each champion has different strengths and weaknesses as you've been told and those intricacies drive a design philosophy called 'perfect imbalance'. Which is the practice of intentionally leaving the power of every champion different, as a wholly level playing field (i.e. Starcraft) will stagnate the game to specific strategies and leave very little room for creativity/diversity. And as you said this changes the stats that are valuable based on the trending picks.
Ellphi3 votesChampion tiers cycle because the meta shifts, causing certain champion commodities to be valued greater than those of other champions - so in the end there are champions with a margin of 'free stats' over its competitors. Even Lee Sin is subject to these shifts, in fact he hasn't been god-tier for a long long long time despite what the forums might say.
You can only have 5 champs on a team and each one has to fulfill a role, so if you can pick a champ that will pretty much fulfill another champ's role while still offering other things, then those other things are relatively 'free'. EX: Cho has the burst+waveclear+cc you'd expect out of an immobile AP mage but he's also tanky as fk. His tankiness gives him more value in the current meta over other mages.
ChoGathsSon6 votesChampion tiers cycle because the meta shifts, causing certain champion commodities to be valued greater than those of other champions - so in the end there are champions with a margin of 'free stats' over its competitors. Even Lee Sin is subject to these shifts, in fact he hasn't been god-tier for a long long long time despite what the forums might say.
You can only have 5 champs on a team and each one has to fulfill a role, so if you can pick a champ that will pretty much fulfill another champ's role while still offering other things, then those other things are relatively 'free'. EX: Cho has the burst+waveclear+cc you'd expect out of an immobile AP mage but he's also tanky as fk. His tankiness gives him more value in the current meta over other mages.
That's such flawed logic
When is burst, wave clear and CC not a valued commodity? Why is it suddenly free now when it wasn't 5 patches ago? The meta doesn't suddenly make what he's always had a load of free stats, the meta is reason he's excelling because his design and stats give him what's in demand: his Feast stacking passive. He has that over other champions yes but when it wasn't on demand 5 patches ago, it wasn't free lol? That is extremely flawed.
You're basically saying champions need to have free tankiness now to be good mid laners which is untrue. You're also saying mid laners need to be given free durability now because of ChoGath, which is a hilariously stupid thing. ChoGath gets free durability because of his immobility and the fact he has to stop to cast his spells.
Nothing is "free," it costs them parts of their kits and it's what builds their identify as a champion. You're trying to argue champions have free stats from their kits relative to what's on demand in the meta, which is hilariously stupid and flawed.
Gorgiolio1 votesWhy would Nasus need an attack speed passive?
ChoGathsSon4 votesWhy would Nasus need an attack speed passive?
To hit things faster
Pæan6 votes
literally free crit
she is going to auto-attack regardless, the jump is just tacked on
edit: really the only legit "free" things i can think of at the moment.
FooDang9 votesBy this logic wouldn't all passives be "free"?...
SpecterVonBaren2 votesExcept Yasuo already has his passive shield, his crit passive is literally a free extra passive.
Pæan2 votesThis is what I was getting at with the yaso comment. He gets that as a bonus on top of the shIeld. Maybe if his crit bonus was dependent on his flow then it would feel more smooth but right now it's just, "he has shiv and IE so everything is a crit now"
The Lexer3 votesBut he needs to buy the crit to get the crit bonus so its not free
Mecha MaIphite8 votesFree sustain and AS 
Free slow 
Free invisibility 
Free infinitely scaling damage 
rito gut these op champs plz
ChoGathsSon1 votesFree sustain and AS
rito gut these op champs plz
Hah hey now, I think Eve is actually good at the moment. With Black Cleaver, Garen could potentially be half decent too, I don't know yet. I'll have to have my lab rats, erm, friends expiriment with Demicia more.
The Lexer1 votesBlack cleaver garen is a pain in the ass to play against
Chilroy4 votes
edit: really the only legit "free" things i can think of at the moment.
Yasuo's core identity is swift killer, the control crit allows this. Almost every part of his kit has been nerfed to suffice this, even when does critically strike it's 10% less than Tryndamere critting the same damage. His weaknesses are obvious, CC, ranged harass, tanks - since he's fairly squishy with an assassin build.
Kalista's jump prevents her from cancelling autos, unlike every other champion in league and also if you leave her vision after she throws it, it'll miss unlike fade-away ranged autos. Kalista only has two offensive abilities, three if you count the ult which requires a medium amount of coordination on both Kalista and the Bonded's part.
The real reason people hate champions like 
, etc. Is because even though their balanced, they often have flashy, annoying kits. It makes it feel annoying to play rather than "Damn, I was outplayed."
And it's not the designers fault, some earlier champions are just now being reworked so they can play with the big boys and their doing just fine.
So remember next you die "Did I overextend, or was I literally stuck in the same place for 5 seconds because I decided to leave turret by 2 feet." Then you can say, "Hey, that's pretty unfair. That should probably be looked into."
Chilroy4 votesAnd CertainlyT creates interesting champion concepts, only four solely by himself (out of six), 
. The only one needing a rework is Darius, the others create interesting gameplay environments. None of the three latter push out other champions in their lanes like late Season 3 Lee Sin in Jungle. CertainlyT shouldn't be given so much shit, when balancing unique champions is difficult due unknowns within the game, honestly he'll only get better with each champion he creates.
largefish2 votesActually its totally the designers fault that was ever released in her current state.
Chilroy1 votesActually its totally the designers fault that
The only queue where kalista has a constantly above 50% winrate is in Ranked Teams. Kalista is a utility adc, with conditional mobility - she's not even extremely popular. I don't understand why people don't know that low mobility champions can't fight someone built to kite, many assassin destroy her.
Her kit needs two people to work even, the only skills that don't need the Oathsworn is Q and E. Being frustrated by Kalista is illogical, her design inherently built towards a duo-bot or teams, she becomes sub-par in normals or solo-queue due to how she's designed. Her unique mechanics might make it annoying to lane against probably, but that lasts only 11 to 17 minutes.
Besides they just nerfed her conditional mobility.
WutsKraken4 votesKeep in mind, many champs that scale well with a stat or can stack it a ton tend to lack that stat or another related stat in the first place anyways
at one point had the LOWEST scaling Armor in the game becuase of his W
has one of the lowest base HP's in the entire game after his rework
has one of the slowest base AS' in the game
has almost Riven tier HP regen, and has 0 mobility aside from his really meh movement speed
ChoGathsSon4 votesK in regards to CertainlyT champs and passive bonus AD/Crit/armor pen
Let me list off a few spells for you from champions that aren't certainlyT champs
This first ability does aoe magic damage, if you stand in its circle it reduces your armor by flat amounts, up to 45 at Max rank and lasts for a short duration even after you walk out of it.
This second ability does aoe Magic damage per tic and it does max% hp per tic in magic damage and converts that damage into bonus AD, which both the damage per tic and bonus AD are capped
This champion has an ability that gives bonus AD and MS as a passive and the active gives him and surrounding allies in the area bonus AD and MS
These aren't certainlyt champions but it seems they get "free" stuff. A lot of these champions get these stats to strengthen their power in some way to make them less one dimensional. Its not free, it tacks on power to their kit that gives them additional scaling and versatility - this is what makes champions unique and separates champions. If you removed second, 3rd passives and "free" stats like these, champions would be bland and stale and have inconsistent scaling entirely.
IceKingChernobog3 votessomewhere out there are laughing
McAllister3 votesThe only champion that works for is LeBlanc, because it makes sense to say "Why does LeBlance get free LeBlanc?" Nobody would ask "Why does Zed get free Zed," because there's only the one Zed at a time.
What I mean to say is that the question you're trying to ask is "Why does X champion get free Y." The point of using X in an equation is that, whatever value X is, it's the same every time you say X.
Saianna2 voteswild math nazi appears!
Run for your life, fools!
aaronautumn2 votesThe Lexer1 votesPeople...
Gnartillery2 votesYour Name: 10/10. this threads content: 10/10
I like you :3
ChoGathsSon1 votesYour Name: 10/10. this threads content: 10/10
I like you :3
This is my smurf friend
My main is on a 7 day ban from the boards because I couldn't stop calling people fuccbois lol
Gnartillery1 votesLol, me gonna of to report you :3
Hercules Morse2 votesYesterday I saw a thread about Riven that, at one part, compared Rivens stun with Veigar - as in, Riot gave Veigar's giant ranged aoe stun a slight delay and its not fair that Riven's is still instant.
Not to say that Riven is balanced, I would have no idea about that, I don't play her nor have I come across her in any recent games (all ARAM anyway). It might be that shes a bit powerful, hell it may be that shes broken again for whatever reason, she has been before - but comparisons like that are just nonsense. Its remarkable what people manage to come up with instead of real, contextual analysis. I guess because its easier.
Old Man Teeto1 votesWhy does the OP get free posts?
ChoGathsSon4 votesWhy does the OP get free posts?
Nothing about this post is free
This is my smurf, posting on these boards tends to cost my main a few 7 day bans from time to time LOL
The Lexer1 votesIt cost time
Sooko1 votesInb4 all champions have their base stats reduced to 0