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New dragon and why I am worried

Potato Doc··2 votes·948 views

So the TLDR is I solo drag at 5 mins as vi on the original summoners rift but can no longer do it

Why am I worried? the new dragon and almost everything about fighting it. The knockback is entirely unnecessary, and the increase in damage the dragon deals is really lame. I can no longer do it on the new SR

I started doing this about 2 months ago when a guy had a video of him doing a 5 min vi dragon solo. Now he said he always came up super close and said it was a delicate balance. However I perfected the route and could solo drag ending up with a little less then 1/5th hp. The danger was if the enemy warded correctly / enemy jungler would come bot through river.

Now I realize that the new SR items are not up. The hunters machete is supposed to be better, and I get there is going to be a poison buff / red buff heals you aswell, but I fear that this isnt going to be enough since now with my best efforts I can only get dragon down to 700 hp before dying (before anyone says it yes I realize i could get the support to aid me but I want a solo not a duo)

A few things I propose with this 1. Remove the knock back, it annoying and in all honesty serves no purpose other then to be annoying/ stops dragon from being done by a team by 1 second... awesome... except for the fact it doesn't effect adc or any ranged champs.

alt suggestion: just remove the knock back from 0-10 mins and then after that dragon levels up to gain new abilities aside from just increased damage after 10 mins (would make dragon more interesting late game and provide additional scare factor)

  1. lower the damage, the breath is AoE no need to increase its damage aswell

  2. Slightly raise the AS buff she gets and raise Vi's damage cap on monsters to 450 on her W (This would really only effect dragon before 20 mins)

  3. Remove the slow on AS that dragon deals (I forgot to check so you can totally disregard this if im making a false assumption)

I was/am gold 1 (barely lost my promos to plat 5 at the end of the season) so I know this probably wont be put as a priority but it was a unique niche that I had. Ever since season 1 I have been looking for these unique niches that allowed me to offer my team an advantage most other people couldn't. In the world of ranked that's (to borrow a riot quote) what separated good junglers from amazing ones. (I know i still have a lot to learn about 5 months ago i got back from a 2 year break from video games). I know its a new season to learn many new things but its sad (for me at least) to see that I have most likely lost one of those things that made me more unique as a jungler :(

Here wishing riot even just takes a look at this

22 Comments

Sailor Mint7 votes

You'll never be able to solo dragon again. The new dragon buff is worth too much to let people get a free pass.

Team objectives that give significant permanent buffs should not be soloable.

Potato Doc1 votes

Well I mean all i need now is for the support to come up from bot lane for a few attacks and then he can go back. Its just lame I have to pull my support for it :/

also the free pass thing... any jungle doing solo drag runs the risk of the enemy being smart and warding dragon / enemy jungle decides to take river down to bot lane and find you killing dragon, which has happened many times. When that happens it requires a lot of consideration on what to do next in a very short amount of time. Back in season 1 and 2 this was a super common practice... i dont know why it fell off >.> Heck they even buffed the river vision by giving us the scuttle crab in this new season.

Solo dragon by no means is a free ticket and if I am risking my neck by soloing it (because im offering the enemy team a free dragon and kill if they come) that's a good enough counter play. You also have to factor in how dragon gets harder for each kill you have so its just as dangerous all game.

Also if you want to talk to me about how I can solo baron at 23 mins feel free... Dragon has now become the one surprise factor I cant do in a game which makes me sad

iMaB3AST1 votes

Did u not hear what he said u r getting permanent buffs which will effect the game in the end. U shouldn't be able to easily get dragon everytime.

Potato Doc1 votes

obviously you didnt read what i wrote, and again I say I can still easily get it, i just have to pull someone else like a support

iMaB3AST1 votes

Yea i know riot made so u can just solo dragon and take it without anyone knowing. They made dragon more like baron. Strong but will give u permanent buffs.

Potato Doc1 votes

The reason they made dragon kills buff you instead of just giving gold is now if you get the last buff it acts like a counter baron, or it increases baron buff potency to either help your team from getting wiped or to ensure your victory by overwhelming strength.

I am entirely against the whole "not being able to solo dragon on certain champs" because its a niche that encourages diversity of play, however mostly it is the enemy teams fault for not warding correctly. It boils down to the choice of the bot lane. Are you willing to use a few seconds and ensure dragon is warded correctly? Or are you bronze in your thinking and just ward any of the 4 bushes associated with bot lane.

AbiwonKenabi1 votes

I don't know how much you know about pre-season changes coming up, but I almost think Drag is not worth it hardly at all anymore, partially for your reasoning. The other reason is it lost its global gold, and instead gives random buffs, ending at 5 "dragon stacks" that double said buffs. (The buffs change every week it feels like, but they are things like Armor and Mpen, increased regen stats, etc). It almost feels better to just take Red/blue or a tower instead. Dragon is almost a side thing now.

I'm not sure, we'll see. There's also no really great replacement for Spirit Stone or Quill Coat, which is concerning. Champs like Eve or Wukong run out of mana on a regular basis.

OblongOtter1 votes

I thought the new items acted like a mix of wriggles and quill coat? Like, bonus damage vs monsters and it also regens health and mana as you're in combat with monsters. Also the first stack of the dragon buff (presently) seems rather powerful, giving every lane a damage advantage.

AbiwonKenabi2 votes

To be clear, I don't have extensive experience in the new jungle, and its changing all the time, so I may be factually incorrect. The new items give a psuedo SpiritStone/Quill Coat, giving "increased mana and health regen while in combat with monsters." Which seems fine on paper, but in practice junglers like Pantheon--who could jungle in the first place thanks largely to Spirit Stone--run out of mana rather quickly. Camps take forever for the tankier junglers who used Quill Coat and I think overall they might have decreased the diversity in the jungle. I'm not against changes to the jungle or anything, but obviously we want a wider range of champ picks in the jungle. Spirit Stone, despite its flaws, achieved that I think--we would have never seen Wukong or Pantheon if not for the item. And coming from a Sejuani player, Quill Coat was a pretty good buff to tankier junglers, and not having a suitable replacement will really hurt them.

Champs who still do well in the new jungle are fairly high damage champions with decent clear and little to no mana problems. Kha'Zix, Lee Sin and Fiddlesticks all come to mind. And of course Nunu (I think Nunu will do well regardless of what they do to the jungle. He's not jungle item dependent at all thanks to passive and Consume)

Can't say much about the "Wriggle's replacement." I don't really use any Feral Flare Champs.

Potato Doc1 votes

Well im going to give you my look at it, the reason dragon can be better is if you get it early and if you get it consistently its a huge help to your team, you basically give everyone on your team a free item that doesn't fill up a slot for each dragon, plus when the bonus is multiplied by 3 its really worth it actually becoming almost like a second baron buff if not actually better. This is why it is important to get it early, with the changes to dragon I feel like riot is discouraging junglers who can dragon early which defeats the purpose of the stacks in my opinion. If you evaluate the global gold to what the buffs give in the short term (5 or less dragons) each dragon is actually worth more. At 6 i believe its close to being even.

The mana exhaustion may be a problem but (not accusing) riot says that is the reason they are lowering the blue buff and red buff timers, so that its almost a waste to give to mid laners.

AbiwonKenabi1 votes

The mana exhaustion may be a problem but (not accusing) riot says that is the reason they are lowering the blue buff and red buff timers, so that its almost a waste to give to mid laners.

I actually forgot about this. This might be contributing to the problem too. It kind of sucks that, while I understand this lower blue buff duration is meant to nerf mid laners, junglers were also nerfed, particularly their first clear.

I'm not sure how I feel about the new jungle overall. The dragon might be good, its just that it feels sort of a waste when you are picking between a tower--which gives global gold, gives you better map pressure/control, and gets you closer to victory--and dragon--which gives a nice buff and nothing else. I suppose if you are dominating, or you have a particularly fast dragon team, its definitely an advantage. I haven't decided yet if its worth it.

Marthian1 votes

It's a permanent stat buff. And if you aren't grabbing it, the enemy no doubt will (and that's not good.)

7ha7guy7771 votes

is the 5th buff the only one that lasts 180 seconds? i don't know why, but the way the diversifying objectives dev blog stated the dragon changes, it almost sounds like all dragon buffs only last 3 minutes (180 seconds).

Marthian1 votes

Yeah whatever buff triples the other buff values is the temporary one. The rest are permanent.

Potato Doc1 votes

Well if riot is consistent with their masteries we should see another mastery that increases the duration of relics(buffs) this next season too. By how much? I dunno but there probably will be one which exacerbates the inclination to leave the buffs to the junglers instead of giving it to other champs. its a good attempt at nerfing adc late game and mid laners early game

Drogmyre1 votes

I don't know how much you know about pre-season changes coming up, but I almost think Drag is not worth it hardly at all anymore, partially for your reasoning. The other reason is it lost its global gold, and instead gives random buffs, ending at 5 "dragon stacks" that double said buffs. (The buffs change every week it feels like, but they are things like Armor and Mpen, increased regen stats, etc). It almost feels better to just take Red/blue or a tower instead. Dragon is almost a side thing now.

I'm not sure, we'll see. There's also no really great replacement for Spirit Stone or Quill Coat, which is concerning. Champs like Eve or Wukong run out of mana on a regular basis.

How the fuck do you run out of mana as Eve? She gets a free Chalice for being in stealth. You should not be running out of mana on her, just what?

TheRainInSpain1 votes

He could be playing Eve like anything other than Eve (e.g. in vision range)

Skia Asteri1 votes

How the fuck do you run out of mana as Eve? She gets a free Chalice for being in stealth. You should not be running out of mana on her, just what?

It is possible to run out with Eve if you have a really long fight or several fights without much of a break, since her regen is only good if in stealth. I never had it happen in the current jungle outside of running out at level 2 while taking blue when starting red for some reason or other. Mostly occurs when when there is a team fight -> take objective -> another team fight almost immediately after taking the objective.

I could see it being more common in the new jungle if fighting creeps takes longer, as more abilities would be used without pauses to recover.

And her passive is far better than chalice while in stealth. Since it is based on max mana, increasing your mana pool size gives the best of both quick regen and a large starting pool.

Dar Raksada1 votes

How does the knockback work? Can fiddle still solo it? As a fiddle main I'm worried because being able to solo drake relatively early is one of the reasons to pick fidd over lee/jarv/vi.

Potato Doc1 votes

Basically the knock back works upon the first point of damage being dealt but after that the dragon just attacks you, I dunno about fiddles being able to do it since it chunks so much health per hit.

Grand Eleven1 votes

THe new dragon is supposed to be tougher so the new rewards are worth contesting. This all by design as it was determined Dragon isn't worth the risk come mid-late game and only has value as an early gold snowball ... which is the opposite of what Riot wants.

TLDR: working as intended (Udyr still has no problems soloing dragon btw).

Potato Doc1 votes

I already figured out udyr and a few others who can, but its sad that the pool has been limited even more from the stronger dragon which is why I offered a suggestion on how they could fix this while keeping the intent of a stronger dragon. Mostly Im just hoping Riot buffs vi vs jungle creeps as to allow me to continue doing dragon on atleast 3/4 of my junglers at 5 mins

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