Honestly Warlord's Bloodlust provides more sustain than Grasp at this point.
For those arguing that grasp is better because it has damage, 5000 health would mean 150 magic damage every 4 seconds. Amazing.
Kitten of Evil41 votesIt's not really a fair comparison. You can proc Warlord's on minions and you can only proc Grasp on champions (making it even worse in comparison).
Penns11 votesIt does damage tho tbf
Kitten of Evil7 votesYes, but the OP was comparing sustain, not damage.
ph1234k13 votesComparing the sustain of one mastery with a mastery that is 100% sustain is just improper.
Of course the mastery that is pure sustain has more sustain than the one that isn't... If that is all you are comparing then the comparison is already a pretentious failure.
Sinlaire8 votesbut the point is that even a tank using the SUSTAINIEST TANK KEYSTONE THERE IS, that scales off of MAX HP in order to provide maximum benefit, still provides less sustain than the damage tree keystone.
if almost anyone building damage can more get back in one auto attack than you can every four seconds, that's really pretty weak bro.
Penns4 votesYeah but Warlords gives only sustain, Grasp does 150 dmg in that example. Seems more like a bruiser/juggernaut "damage" mastery, tanks got cotc anyway.
Englais2 votesCause at the point in the game where tanks have 5000 health, that extra 150 dmg is extraordinary useful.
(It's not)
AlienPrimate3 votesSo what about someone like nunu who can't proc cotc? He is forced into using grasp which is honestly pretty woruthless on a jungler, bond which is also worthless on a jungler, or use a damage tree even though he is a tank.
Glory ln Death1 votesHow are Grasp and Bond worthless on junglers, exactly?
AlienPrimate2 votesLet's just take a look at the game I played on olaf top with grasp. Olaf is a good example because he does no magic damage. I did 44k damage to champions with about 800 magic damage in an entire 40 minute game. Grasp did about 0.3 dps throughout the game proccing it consistently. On a jungler you are lucky to proc it once a minute.
venomous frost15 votesgrasp never was the sustain, it was the damage option in the defense tree
It just so happened that the sustain was so good.
Critmaster Garen6 votes[{quoted}](name=venomous frost,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rFqKd7LA,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-12-21T20:28:56.511+0000)
grasp never was the sustain, it was the damage option in the defense tree
why is there a damage option in the defensive tree?
venomous frost15 voteswhy is there a sustain option in the damage tree?
Rebonack2 votes[{quoted}](name=venomous frost,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rFqKd7LA,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2016-12-21T23:10:22.322+0000)
why is there a sustain option in the damage tree?
Because it isn't the damage tree.
It's the DPS/in-combat sustain tree. There are three other masteries in there that give in-combat sustain.
Better question is why there's in-combat sustain in the out of combat sustain tree.
venomous frost2 votesyou just named it the "in/out of combat tree" to fit your argument
ZephyrDrake22 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rFqKd7LA,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2016-12-21T23:01:30.076+0000)
why is there a damage option in the defensive tree?
i don't know... why is there a defensive option on the pure damage tree?
ph1234k11 votesYes, but grasp also deal damage. 150 every 4 seconds in your example.
Ahristocats7 voteswho will build 5000 hp
aspects116 votes
NiceTryVi14 votes7k hp mundo
cant kill him cause he actually has about 9800 hp with is ult. Who needs resistances, anyway?
Papa Andrei7 votesWhy get resistances when you can just kill everything
UnboundCreator1 votes7k hp mundo
cant kill him cause he actually has about 9800 hp with is ult. Who needs resistances, anyway?
your math is terrible
NiceTryVi8 votes5x800=4000 4000+400=4400 4400x1.15=5060 5060+2096=7156
That's a 5 warmog and cinder mundo at lvl 18.
7156x0.4=2862
so his ult returns 2862 hp, and for the sake of the calculation, we say he activates it in the nick of time, at less than 100 hp, say. So the cost is negligible. So, he actually has 10,018 hp. Off by 200 in a matter of ten thousand. I'd say my math is all right.
A Basic Island2 votesyou aint ulting at 100 with no resists and living
NiceTryVi5 votesThat's not the point, the point is how much health would he have with that build. If you really wanna push it, assume he got out of a teamfight juuuuust before he died, and has 100 hp left, and ults because he wants to go back in but cant wait for warmog passive to kick in.
aspects13 voteshe has no scalings on his ablitites anyway, why would you need resistances :)
AlienPrimate1 votesMeanwhile a different mundo with 4k hp can have 20k effective hp against physical damage.
NiceTryVi6 votesIt's a joke. Nobody is gonna go out and buy cinder and 5 warmogs.
Yosuke Apperu3 votesIsn't that closer to 7k? XD
bill844 votesib4 ap varus
SzGamer2272 votes
Hi, I have 5000 health and deal 165 damage in a cone every single auto attack.
I don't even need to boast about my 55 extra damage on hit. I just crushed you and everything behind you.
ChaddyFantome3 votesYour math seems off buddy,
ph1234k43 votesHis math is correct. 5000 * 0.015 = 75
ChaddyFantome2 votesHis math is correct. 5000 * 0.015 = 75
3% of your max HP
not 1.5%
yall just cut the value in half.
Doctor Jarvis84 votesIt DEALS 3% max health. It heals 1.5%. His math is fine.
DragonShea8 votes[{quoted}](name=Doctor Jarvis,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rFqKd7LA,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-21T20:41:18.278+0000)
It DEALS 3% max health. It heals 1.5%. His math is fine.
That is a load of bullshit, and i don't mean the math. only being able to heal yourself for about that much while ADC's with 12% or so LS can heal up to full in about 25 seconds max.
Pierce The Veal20 votesYour math seems off buddy,
Nope, yours is off.
The Yetii Rider3 votesWarlord's doesn't provide more sustain, because Warlords means you have to go 18/0/12 instead of 12/0/18. The Resolve tree is filled with nothing but sustain. You just won't have more sustain with Warlords than Grasp.
Critmaster Garen5 votes[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rFqKd7LA,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2016-12-21T23:58:22.667+0000)
Warlord's doesn't provide more sustain, because Warlords means you have to go 18/0/12 instead of 12/0/18. The Resolve tree is filled with nothing but sustain. You just won't have more sustain with Warlords than Grasp.
excuse me?
all the sustain masteries in resolve are on the upper teirs. if youre going 12 into resolve, the only thing youre missing out on are either tenacity, or extra resistances from legendary guardian, of which neither grants or increases sustain.
so yes, for most fighters, warlord just massively outclasses grasp in terms of sustain.
plus, thats not even the half of it. if you buy just one lifesteal item, the extra damage on fervor turns into sustain aswell, and already beats grasp.
The Yetii Rider1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rFqKd7LA,comment-id=000a0001,timestamp=2016-12-22T00:26:46.771+0000)
excuse me?
all the sustain masteries in resolve are on the upper teirs. if youre going 12 into resolve, the only thing youre missing out on are either tenacity, or extra resistances from legendary guardian, of which neither grants or increases sustain.
so yes, for most fighters, warlord just massively outclasses grasp in terms of sustain.
plus, thats not even the half of it. if you buy just one lifesteal item, the extra damage on fervor turns into sustain aswell, and already beats grasp.
Perseverance isn't in the first 12.
Critmaster Garen4 votes[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rFqKd7LA,comment-id=000a00010001,timestamp=2016-12-22T01:00:06.153+0000)
Perseverance isn't in the first 12.
its the 12th point in the tree. so yes, it is.
The Yetii Rider2 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rFqKd7LA,comment-id=000a000100010000,timestamp=2016-12-22T01:28:21.921+0000)
its literally the 12th point in the tree.
Oh, yeah, you're right.
Eh. Grasp was a problem when it was good. Now Warlords is a problem because it's good. Warlords will get nerfed or removed, then Grasp won't feel so bad on fighters.
Critmaster Garen7 votes[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rFqKd7LA,comment-id=000a0001000100000000,timestamp=2016-12-22T01:33:08.938+0000)
Oh, yeah, you're right.
Eh. Grasp was a problem when it was good. Now Warlords is a problem because it's good. Warlords will get nerfed or removed, then Grasp won't feel so bad on fighters.
it was a "problem" in specific tank vs. tank matchups in lane, since they werent able to kill each other with the extra sustain. like tank ekko vs. maokai having it on top of his passive.
god forbid a lane is decided by people out cs ing each other and proper wave manipulation instead of everyone going all in each time they have their ults ready.
and there is an easy way to buff the mastery, and keep the sustain in check during the lane phase. change it to regenerate 1.5% maximum health for every enemy nearby.
The Yetii Rider3 votesRiot does forbid it, actually. That kind of matchup is boring to watch. Sustain puts more burden on macro skill than micro skill.
Critmaster Garen6 votes[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rFqKd7LA,comment-id=000a000100010000000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-22T03:04:35.161+0000)
Riot does forbid it, actually. That kind of matchup is boring to watch. Sustain puts more burden on macro skill than micro skill.
i know. theyre going by "who cares if a game feels good to play, as long as it is easy to watch?" -.-
The Yetii Rider1 votesGrasp is probably just unhealthy for the game as a whole.
Critmaster Garen3 votes[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rFqKd7LA,comment-id=000a00010001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-22T03:16:28.173+0000)
Grasp is probably just unhealthy for the game as a whole.
how.
more than fervor, warlord or some of the other keystones?
