@Riot Repertoir, AD Caster itemization and Bruisers.

Cloak an Dagger · 2015-08-12T01:56:56.690Z

What are your thoughts on the lack of itemization for the AD caster archetype? Why is the mere existence of one archetype of champions preventing another from having any meaningful item diversity? Would you even agree with this statement? I think this question has been brought up before and the general consensus seems to be that it would be easily abusable by Bruisers. The only pseudo ad caster item was and it gets built now by Bruisers much earlier and more often than AD casters like Zed or Talon. I think the recent shifting of stats makes it less desirable since it has less flat AD and more flat health. The cool-down reduction is so juicy, but the new build path and health is a major turn-off. You sacrifice too much damage early to buy this item except situationally and usually as a 5th or 6th buy. All (or most of) the AD casters have very pre-determined item choices that typically prioritize armor penetration (flat and %) and actives on items in order for them to be relevant throughout the game. Are there any plans or ideas circulating at the moment to maybe increase options for more fragile champions that deal most of their damage off skills scaling with attack damage?

DesideriumAug 12, 20151 votes

I'm not sure if defensive itemization would be the initial way to go for them, but in that vein I think we can make something work while not making it a favorite for ADCs.

We could make the active have a shield that increases in strength the more physical damage you do with your spells, and once the shield gets to a certain amount (can be delayed by dealing damage to the champion, of course) then it causes a wide shockwave AoE that deals physical damage and puts the champion in immobile stasis for a couple of seconds. Add some physical damage vamp onto the item as a passive as well.

Jesus is SaviorAug 12, 20153 votes

{quoted}

If you ask me, the AD caster/assassin guys could probably use an optimized version of Ghostblade (or other Brutalizer upgrade), and maybe one or two more items specifically for them. Black Cleaver gets close, but building that Kindlegem is painful, especially since most of these guys are trying to snowball as early as possible, and 900g on a Health item doesn't really cater to that need.

This isn't something we have planned and is closer to something I'm just thinking out loud, but these guys would love to have an AD Zhonya's. It would be a real task to make it not a marksman favorite as well, though maybe that's not the worst thing in the world since it means they're not basic attacking for a few seconds?

Anyway, I think it would be cool if AD casters/assassins had another item or two catered more specifically to them. They seem like they just use stuff meant for other people that also happens to work on them, despite not being optimized.

AD Zhonya? Please no.

Instead of trying to be "creative" just add another brutalizer item similar to "warrior" but without smite as a requirement.

At least as a quick-fix (one item is easy to add to the game - an entire "assassin itemization rework" is not).

pripustasAug 12, 20152 votes

Why not? Why AP assassins get to use it, and AD ones don't? I mean look at AP items vs AD. AP: item 3157 complete cc/damage mitigation, waiting for skills to go off cd, giving your team a few seconds to react to save your ass, helps when getting dove under turret. item 3040 an easy to use shield, that saves you from being bursted by an assassin, same/better shield value than BT, but can be used at will. AD: item 3072 you have to auto attack to gain the shield, but it decays, so you have to auto attack before the fight, but not too early, as it will decay, or not too late as you won't stack it in time, no usage in the fight if not stacked prior to.

Jesus is SaviorAug 12, 20155 votes

{quoted}

Why not?

Because we don't need 5 people on every team building an untargetable bullshit item every game?

Also AD has item 3139

If you throw in an AD zhonya, an assassin can build AD zhonya AND a scimitar, have it actually be a viable build, dive your team, kill your carry, get cc'd, then pop scimitar and zhonya at the same time and remain untargetable while his entire team engages on you.

You won't even be able to cc them to stop them from popping their zhonya.

pripustasAug 12, 20151 votes

Are you really comparing QSS to Zhonya? I would choose Zhonya's every time.

EnderForHegemonAug 12, 20155 votes

No he's not. He's pointing out that they both exist, and would be attractive together in a 6 item lategame. He's further advancing the opinion that untargetable bullshit that you can't even hardCC someone in order to prevent is bad for the game.

DrCyanideAug 12, 20153 votes

While AP Assassins have the better defensive tools item 3157 item 3040 (really? Does any AP Assassin build tear first?), AD Assassins have movement modifying tools you're forgetting - item 3153 item 3142

pripustasAug 12, 20151 votes

And both of those items SUCK. Not only both of them are actives (and botrk requires an enemy champion nearby) they also give a pathetic amount of AD. Guess what, all assassin needs is AD

Kassadin does.

Cloak an DaggerAug 12, 20152 votes

{quoted}

If you ask me, the AD caster/assassin guys could probably use an optimized version of Ghostblade (or other Brutalizer upgrade), and maybe one or two more items specifically for them. Black Cleaver gets close, but building that Kindlegem is painful, especially since most of these guys are trying to snowball as early as possible, and 900g on a Health item doesn't really cater to that need.

This isn't something we have planned and is closer to something I'm just thinking out loud, but these guys would love to have an AD Zhonya's. It would be a real task to make it not a marksman favorite as well, though maybe that's not the worst thing in the world since it means they're not basic attacking for a few seconds?

Anyway, I think it would be cool if AD casters/assassins had another item or two catered more specifically to them. They seem like they just use stuff meant for other people that also happens to work on them, despite not being optimized.

I was also going to add I really liked the "melee"only" label ravenous hydra introduced but I neglected to add it in. Perhaps this would be an area to add more like-minded items or concepts.

Also I would like to thank you for you conducive feedback regarding balance on the boards. We really appreciate you taking time out of your day to do this.

pripustasAug 12, 20151 votes

AP items are so much better. That's why AP assassins rule, while AD ones are forgotten. It's not fair that AP assassins can build items like item 1312 item 3145 item 3157 item 3285 item 3116 item 3040 AD assassins have none of those.

Earl EulrichAug 12, 20151 votes

don´t you think current IE is highly problematic here since it´s offering the most AD per Slot albeit it should be a dps-focused item for Autoattackers, not an rng-instant-kill-option for AD-Casters...basically always outperforming other options for them lategame because the drawback of the rng-dependency is not hard enough given that the success-case is just absolutly ridiculous overwhelming.

Also, please don´t do an AD-Zonias.

For the AD-items I personally think the old elder lizard is maybe a good direction for a brutalizer-upgrade...offering some (mana!)sustain and some additional truedmg, as AD-Caster struggle with tanks anyway and it would be easier tunable to be less overwhelming vs squishies but still effective vs tanks than just raw physical dmg.

pripustasAug 12, 20151 votes

The problem is not killing tanks. That's not the job for an assassin. Assassin's job is to kill squishy targets. Also wasting $$ on mana would be terrible for an assassin.

Earl EulrichAug 12, 20151 votes

we´re talking about ad-casters here...the only ad-caster that also is an assassin is Talon. Zed had once been designed as somewhat of an AD-Caster, but ultimatly nowadays is more of a melee-carry that relays a lot more on his autoattacks than he should do.

pripustasAug 12, 20151 votes

I am talking about Talon. What other AD casters are there?

Malzahard ModeAug 12, 20151 votes

What do you think of this idea (Disclaimer: i have no idea how to actually balance stuff, just spit-balling) Ethereal Hammer - 3400G: Builds out of B.F sword and Hexdrinker +70 AD

Unique Active: Intangible - Champion enters a ghost-like state becomes invulnerable and untargetable for 2 seconds or until an ability is cast. Auto-attacks and abilities deal 50% less damage while Intangible.

This would give ADC's and other squishy AD champions either a chance to get out when caught out of position or the risk of staying in and trying to kill a low health target while putting out less than optimal damage. A potential nerf would be to make it so a champion cannot crit while intangible (not sure how that would effect Ashe)

pripustasAug 12, 20151 votes

That active would be much stronger than Zhonyas.

Malzahard ModeAug 12, 20151 votes

True, but then again ad champs need it a bit more, most mages have some form of hard cc or ridiculous burst they can use once they come out of zhonyas, most ad's at best case have a blink or dash and would be fairly predictable where they would go if they did stasis like zhonyas, this gives them the ability to get out if needed, or risk sticking around

MiraweaveSep 8, 20152 votes

{quoted}

If you ask me, the AD caster/assassin guys could probably use an optimized version of Ghostblade (or other Brutalizer upgrade), and maybe one or two more items specifically for them. Black Cleaver gets close, but building that Kindlegem is painful, especially since most of these guys are trying to snowball as early as possible, and 900g on a Health item doesn't really cater to that need.

This isn't something we have planned and is closer to something I'm just thinking out loud, but these guys would love to have an AD Zhonya's. It would be a real task to make it not a marksman favorite as well, though maybe that's not the worst thing in the world since it means they're not basic attacking for a few seconds?

Anyway, I think it would be cool if AD casters/assassins had another item or two catered more specifically to them. They seem like they just use stuff meant for other people that also happens to work on them, despite not being optimized.

You need to be careful with another Brutalizer item, though. Historically, AD casters when strong have just stacked armor penetration, and the result is that building armor against them is totally ineffective unless you're going to invest in several tank items. If a squishy wants to take the edge off of an assassin's kill combo, they have absolutely no way to do that, especially since health is a lot less effective against AD burst since they can always finish you with autoattacks.

In contrast, picking up a negatron cloak against a leblanc has a noticeable effect. It actually helps you survive against her, and if she doesn't kill you she doesn't have the ability to just easily finish you with basic attacks.

Basically, could you please not make this new AD Caster item give armor penetration, unless you intend on making all the different armor penetration items unique?

@Riot Repertoir, AD Caster itemization and Bruisers.

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