I hear Riot is nerfing Swain's skill-shot based root to address potential damage issues.

Cloak an Dagger·Nov 24, 2015·184 votes·6,834 views

http://i.imgur.com/7UlKux7.jpg)

There's this skill called "Nevermove" (aka always move) which cost's on average about 100 mana per cast and has a base cooldown of 18 seconds caps at (10 at rank 5 (you mainly need the utility in lane at early levels to win lane and not be useless).

This skillshot takes almost a full second to activate. Let's nerf it to address potential damage problems that he may have. A high pick-rate champion such as Swain has far too much access to high mobility, low cooldowns, and low mana costs. His current state of balance is completely unacceptable. So fuck you Swain.

I don't even play this champion. It just bothers me when I see Riot nerf an under the radar champion in the wrong way and for all the wrong reasons (if any).

143 Comments

TacoTheKittenNov 25, 201520 votes

I mean I hate laning against swain, he's annoying, but like for real he didn't deserve any nerfs. He was really balanced and had clear cut weaknesses, especially now that we have executioner's calling.

SaiannaNov 25, 201518 votes

I guess we just can't have a MAGE capable of slowing down ADCs or FlashyPlayz.

Right, Swain? Anivia?

ModKnightsKemplarNov 25, 201511 votes

But, as a Swain main, let me drop in and say he DOES need a nerf.

I have not lost lane in postseason as Swain. Even against my hardest counters, LeBlanc and Cass, I dominate. I was literally cackling to myself today as I put a Cass in the dirt. Repeatedly. After she deliberately counter-picked me. It was sad.

I want some small nerfs, at least so my champ doesn't become perma-banned and spammed by all the "flavor-of-the-week" players that have no clue how to play him. He doesn't deserve that. So don't complain too hard. The root duration is a reasonable nerf to him right now. We'll see how the rest goes.

Crowe StalkerNov 25, 20156 votes

Or... how about Riot hits Torment? or Deathfire Touch? You know, his actual problems?

AuryielNov 25, 20151 votes

Not sure how the current nerf is reasonable considering he now probably has to level up W over Q, which cuts down his slow and some of his reliable damage AND nerfs his snare duration until level 14 :|

ModKnightsKemplarNov 25, 20155 votes

That's good. His damage going down is a good thing here. Note Kuronan's point; the real problem is his damage. If you MAKE him level w, you might underhandedly nerf his damage without having to touch numbers. Again; we'll see. I wouldn't do that; my playstyle hopefully won't be too affected. But we'll see.

AuryielNov 25, 20152 votes

Except the only reason he is a problem right now is a mastery that's gonna get nerfed repeatedly for DoT mages and if that leaves Swain weak chances are because he's an underplayed champion he won't get buffed back to his Pre-DFT balance

I Main SwainNov 25, 20153 votes

personally, i would be all for exchanging some ult damage with a slightly lower ult cost. that thing hurts my mana pool so hard until the tail end of the game :(

TransgressorNov 25, 20157 votes

Since when is Cass a hard-counter pick to Swain? Anivia Annie Azir Heimerdinger Morgana Xerath None of those have to give 2 shits about Swain, since they don't have to get in his range to fuck him up.

What changed?

KONO RUBICK DANov 25, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Since when is Cass a hard-counter pick to Swain? None of those have to give 2 shits about Swain, since they don't have to get in his range to fuck him up.

What changed?

item 3123 was his nerf, nobody pick it

TransgressorNov 25, 20154 votes

Which is INCREDIBELY strong for its gold value. It's retarded, you buy it first back and Vladimir is worthless for the rest of the game.

IonianNov 25, 20157 votes

Yes, let's pretend like Swain takes any skill to play because he has a whole 1 skillshot that he often doesn't even need to hit. Literally the definition of point-and-click, and the ult DOESN'T even require clicking. Oh and he has a stupidly good synergy with deathfire touch, but you conveniently forgot to mention that in the 2nd paragraph. They nerfed the wrong ability, yes, but a champion this easy and toxic doesn't deserve 1 second of spotlight. Stay salty. [slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

Cloak an DaggerNov 25, 201520 votes

[{quoted}](name=If Ahri Was Real,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XoRsL3fY,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-11-25T00:04:42.013+0000)

Yes, let's pretend like Swain takes any skill to play because he has a whole 1 skillshot that he often doesn't even need to hit. Literally the definition of point-and-click, and the ult DOESN'T even require clicking. Oh and he has a stupidly good synergy with deathfire touch, but you conveniently forgot to mention that in the 2nd paragraph. They nerfed the wrong ability, yes, but a champion this easy and toxic doesn't deserve 1 second of spotlight. Stay salty. [slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

First off, I don't play this champion. As for his point and click abilities, they are very short ranged abilities on a very low mobility champion. The ult does require you to click the button. It also has a fast ramping mana cost the longer you have it on.

Ok he has good synergy with deathfire touch. I agree with your point. However most champions have good synergy with the keystone masteries because they need to be tuned. I didn't mention it because It wasn't worth mentioning.

They haven't nerfed anything just yet. These are PBE changes. This particular champion has so many important stats (mana, magic penetration, ability power, magic resistance, armor, health, cool-down reduction) that he doesn't really get strong until 3-4 items in.

Lastly I am not "salty" because I play this champion. I am "salty" because there was no rationale given for this planned change which is completely unwarranted in my opinion.

Spacesuit SpiffNov 25, 20152 votes

I saw a good explanation for it in another thread. A way to tone him down without hurting his core stats or something. Anyway why not wait and see whats said in the patch notes?

Cloak an DaggerNov 25, 20153 votes

{quoted}

I saw a good explanation for it in another thread. A way to tone him down without hurting his core stats or something. Anyway why not wait and see whats said in the patch notes?

Yes these changes are not set in stone. However something tells me Riot will never address or give reason for these planned changes until they go through if they do. A concerning trend.

Big LincolnNov 25, 201577 votes

sounds like the ahri player is salty more than anything

IonianNov 25, 20153 votes

I could be a Teemo player, how is that even relevant here. We're talking about Swain's kit, not Ahri's.

Big LincolnNov 25, 201561 votes

I've been told Swain beats Ahri pretty bad

Must not have any counterplay :^)

IonianNov 25, 20154 votes

With Q's movespeed or ult I can easily dodge his W, and I start item 2033 to null his harass. item 3165 counters his ult heavily and it's what Ahri rushes anyway, no changes in my build. If I just want to completely ignore him, I can also build item 3001 . It's actually an easy lane, but I guess people in silver/gold think what lolcounters says is always undisputable truth. Learn to play vs counters and one day you might climb to a decent elo :^)

MelledoneusNov 25, 201550 votes

Because aiming skillshots, timing AoEs, learning how to f*cking farm with that god-awful auto attack doesn't take any skill.

If you master farming with Swain's auto, you deserve challenjour.

Spacesuit SpiffNov 25, 201515 votes

This. Last time i saw a swain (in diamond, mind you) i have him 2 kills from solid ganks early on. 15 minutes later he was 2/0 but at half his opponents cs

HoodwinkNov 25, 20158 votes

I've mained Swain for a long time now and I only managed to get the hang of CSing well with him after the first 3 months.

Ariel the CruelNov 25, 20155 votes

If you master farming with Swain's auto, you deserve challenjour.

Anivia hi Fiddlesticks item 3031 How's it going?

Baron of BreadNov 25, 20154 votes

Swain's is roughly as bad as Anivia's, I play both so I can confirm.

Battlecast SonaNov 25, 20153 votes

The main difference is that Anivia at level 6 no longer has to use her AA to farm as long as she has sufficient mana pool and regen available to her. Swain never really scales to have good waveclear (especially from a safe distance) whereas Anivia can easily clear a wave without putting herself in any danger whatsoever.

Spizzle9000Nov 25, 20152 votes

What about Vladimir? I've never played Swain, Anivia, or Fiddle, so yeah.

Crowe StalkerNov 26, 20152 votes

Transfusion and Tides of Blood make up for his lack of auto attack speed considering it's on a 4.5 second cooldown and isn't gated my Mana (it does have a health cost, but it also increases regen and healing so... item 2003 covers 4-5 casts) Nevermove is 18 seconds and costs about 1/5th of your entire mana pool at level 2, for a paltry 80 damage (+70% AP of which you have maybe... 40 of? 7 damage)

Spizzle9000Nov 26, 20152 votes

Ah, good point. Except don't forget that the cost goes up with stacks. I was simply wondering about autoattacks and stuff, not the abilities. Like, are their aa animations and speed/damage and stuff better or worse?

Crowe StalkerNov 26, 20152 votes

Vladimir, Anivia, Fiddlesticks, and Swain are the worst champions currently for Last Hitting (as far as I remember) However, what people aren't discussing is how Vladimir has Tides of Blood to help him clear/push heavily, Anivia's Flash Frost is an AoE with a 1.0 AP ratio (.5 when moving past something and .5 when detonating) and Fiddlesticks' Crowstorm, while not the best clearing spell, still has less of a cooldown and is guaranteed to hit 5 targets.

Waveclear and Last Hitting isn't just 'Oh, their autos are terrible!' but you also need to look at if they have a spell that makes up for that. I saw some idiot claiming Karthus was terrible at CSing... KARTHUS!

Spizzle9000Nov 26, 20151 votes

Oh most definitely. Vladimir has it easier than those few, and once he has WotA and AP, he has one of the best waveclears in the entire game.

Crowe StalkerNov 26, 20153 votes

Waveclear is looking at a champion and asking 'Can I kill minions effectively with auto attacks?' if the answer to that is no, then ask 'Can I kill them quickly with spells?'

Unfortunately people think the answer to both of those on Swain are either Yes to both (usually the people calling for nerfs and have never played him) or Yes to one and No to the other (to the people who just read his stats and have never played him)

Those of us who have actually played him more than once (and realize he has Counterplay) realize the answer to Both is No.

Noam BraumskyNov 25, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Baron of Bread,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XoRsL3fY,comment-id=00020001000000000000000000020001,timestamp=2015-11-25T19:58:55.938+0000)

Swain's is roughly as bad as Anivia's, I play both so I can confirm.

Malzahar 's is almost as bad, but at least he has his E and Q for quick ez waveclear.

Crowe StalkerNov 26, 20152 votes

Yea, past level 9 Malzahar can usually clear a wave with E and a few auto attacks. Meanwhile Swain has to Nevermove AND Ravenous Flock for five seconds to do that. What costs Malz 120 mana (which he will almost entirely recover by the time the wave's down, so it's more like he's loaning mana) costs Swain around... 400 mana or more. idk, I haven't played Swain in a while.

PopePancakeNov 25, 201533 votes

[{quoted}](name=If Ahri Was Real,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XoRsL3fY,comment-id=00020001000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-25T01:20:55.011+0000)

With Q's movespeed or ult I can easily dodge his W, and I start to null his harass. counters his ult heavily and it's what Ahri rushes anyway, no changes in my build. If I just want to completely ignore him, I can also build . It's actually an easy lane, but I guess people in silver/gold think what lolcounters says is always undisputable truth. Learn to play vs counters and one day you might climb to a decent elo :^)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xldszpsg9s

Exclamation MarkNov 25, 20151 votes

You can't counter his damage, or actually do damage to him.

Rew711Nov 25, 20158 votes

YES YOU CAN!! I've done it plenty of times, and even played him a lot to find it out. Swain NEEDS mana and lots of AP at the same time. Champs like Teemo and Vayne counter him easily dealing TONS of damage over time, and can even keep great distances. This means that champs that are also tanky are great against him, mostly Galio. In fact, if Swain doesn't have any mana pots in early, he's pretty much on a low budget kit for a long while. Its also hard in late to really capture a enemy in his W, mind what the person above us made it sound like (that person really is salty), and its almost like what they're doing to Anavia. Her slows were pushed back a FULL SECOND. That means one less second to hit someone with her E. I honestly thought, that the reason she has a powerful Q, E, and R were because her W did almost nothing until late.

Cloak an DaggerNov 25, 201510 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hextech Gunbard,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XoRsL3fY,comment-id=0002000100000000,timestamp=2015-11-25T00:48:59.743+0000)

I've been told Swain beats Ahri pretty bad

Must not have any counterplay :^)

That pointy nose face triggers me. Please we need more of that face.

I Main SwainNov 25, 20157 votes

you clearly have never had any interaction with swain of any sort other than a time you fed his balls off.

give me an actual argument. i dare you to give me a single reason swain is toxic.

IonianNov 25, 20151 votes

Q, E. 2 reasons there you go

I Main SwainNov 25, 20157 votes

those arent reasons hes toxic, those are just strong abilities, both of which are short range.

IonianNov 25, 20151 votes

aaaaaaah. 64% winrate Skarner wasn't toxic, just strong

I Main SwainNov 25, 201511 votes

you say that like swain has a 64% winrate

AfroNinja6810Nov 25, 20152 votes

Oh come on, don't be biased just because you main swain. His kit is pretty anti-fun to play against, but I guess that can be said about quite a few kits.

I Main SwainNov 25, 20154 votes

not biased, hes not an unfun champion to play against. he has clear counterplay and a lot of weaknesses.

KONO RUBICK DANov 25, 20155 votes

{quoted}

Oh come on, don't be biased just because you main swain. His kit is pretty anti-fun to play against, but I guess that can be said about quite a few kits.

swain kit is one of the funniest kit to play against

you can step back to remove his Q you can never get hit by his W you can lifesteal /sustain/shield his E damage because it's delayed or remove everything with QSS you can prevent him from healing by building mr/removing his E/buying a 800 gold item

you can fucking stay out of his range

SrirachaLimesNov 25, 20155 votes

People are acting like this nerf completely destroyed Swain.

It didn't. He's still strong. The root still fulfills its purpose in lane - to provide you with enough time to cast Q + E combo and deal some damage to them with autos. This doesn't significantly impact his play style or make him nonviable. Yeah, the nerf doesn't really make sense, but it doesn't hurt him as much as you claim it to hurt him.

I play Swain quite frequently, and when I first heard about this nerf, yeah I was a bit confused as to why they nerfed the timing on the W. But in terms of my concern for how it will affect me as a Swain player, I couldn't care less.

I Main SwainNov 25, 201519 votes

people arent acting like it destroyed him, people are just pissed that it was unjustified.