I know that top lane is called an "island"

Spicy Rice·Oct 20, 2015·57 votes·5,581 views

But if your top laner is asking for help, don't just ignore them. At least say something like, we are coming, please hold, or something of the like. It's incredibly depressing in top lane, to be laning without a shred of hope of coming out semi-useful.

As an example, my last game, I played Fizz vs a Malphite in order to let me J4 avoid laning against malph. In the end, i was constantly out traded, and had no help what so ever. And after lane phase, i was literally called useless by my jinx and nami. I had asked for help, and I was told to stop bitching.

All I can say, is that, that was honestly a game I wanted to purposefull afk, just because i felt like i spent 30 mins, doing nothing.

EDIT: in order to clarify, I did not pick Fizz top lane into malphite. I traded lanes with j4 in order to allow him an easier lane against an annie.

103 Comments

Gregor GysiOct 20, 201524 votes

Well, that's something we toplaners have to deal with. But dw once you managed to survive toplane island you get rewarded with the overall least impact on the game :>>

UBcrawlinOct 20, 20157 votes

{quoted}

Well, that's something we toplaners have to deal with. But dw once you managed to survive toplane island you get rewarded with the overall least impact on the game :>>

ummmmmmmm top laners right now have arguably the MOST impact on the game with teleport ganks bot lane every 5 minutes. Whoever has the better teleport is getting an absurd advantage for their team in the form of kills/dragon/bot turret which allows you to dive EVEN MORE on their bot lane. Not sure where you get this sense of not impacting the game. At all.

WarlockLawOct 21, 20152 votes

At low elo, tp ganks are rarely impactful enough to merit having left top lane, unless the enemy laner followed. I've seen very few successful tp ganks in my games as there isn't usually a good spot for the gank

Gregor GysiOct 21, 20151 votes

{quoted}

ummmmmmmm top laners right now have arguably the MOST impact on the game with teleport ganks bot lane every 5 minutes. Whoever has the better teleport is getting an absurd advantage for their team in the form of kills/dragon/bot turret which allows you to dive EVEN MORE on their bot lane.

Well, unlike Mid, Jungle, ADC and Sup they can't just walk to botlane anytime they wants. Also midlaners start getting TP aswell..

Not sure where you get this sense of not impacting the game. At all.

I'm also not sure where you are getting this from. Least impact =/= no impact. Toplane is taking TP because toplaners HAVE to have it. The other lanes could take TP if they wanted to - but seeing how close they are to the center of action they simply don't need to. Midlane + TP is simply a better toplane.

UBcrawlinOct 21, 20151 votes

I agree that mid and jungle have always had better access to bot lane. But in my opinion having vision and glancing at the mini map every few seconds to see if the mid laner is where they're supposed to be will give you much more warning to back off than the 3.5 seconds of teleport animation.

Mids are likely taking teleport because of how early teamfights break out bottom lane and they are trading in lane kill potential for the extra assurance that they'll have a way to get to bot lane if something big breaks out to give their team an advantage. Also, I frequently roam mid as a top laner which can then snowball into freeing up my mid laner to roam bottom.

Gregor GysiOct 21, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I agree that mid and jungle have always had better access to bot lane. But in my opinion having vision and glancing at the mini map every few seconds to see if the mid laner is where they're supposed to be will give you much more warning to back off than the 3.5 seconds of teleport animation.

But you know that a toplaner can't just farm and then decide 'hugh, better TP bot' while his lane opponent is there aswell? After all his opponent could interrupt the TP/damage him heavily/even kill him. There are several ways of controling TPs:

your toplaner times it
your own toplaner has TP aswell so it evens out
you see your opponent toplaner/don't see him
no matter what happens, you still have the animation - but if their midlaner/jungle manages to surprise you.. Well. Also if TP was this much of an advantage then why wouldn't all midlaners take it - right. Because they don't even need it. They have so much luxury and a way better position than the toplaners so that they often don't even need TP to make plays happen.

{quoted}

Mids are likely taking teleport because of how early teamfights break out bottom lane and they are trading in lane kill potential for the extra assurance that they'll have a way to get to bot lane if something big breaks out to give their team an advantage. Also, I frequently roam mid as a top laner which can then snowball into freeing up my mid laner to roam bottom.

Midlaners have the luxury to choose. If they don't take TP their roaming power is still superior to toplane - and if they do take it they are even more superior in terms of roaming power. And everything else tbh. Midlane compared to toplane:

both can do camps (but midlane is able to take their ghosts aswell)
midlane gets blue very often
midlane is shorter and thus safer against the jungler -> is harder to get denied -> good for immobile champs
midlane is able to roam better -> snowball better
TP doesn't matter in the comparison because midlaner could take it aswell
midlane can have a fight summoner, toplane can't
midlane is more fit to take a carry role than top, because mid is better at carrying (seeing roaming potential)
midlane has better drake and general objective control on bot and midlane (duh)
same EXP and GOLD
doesn't have the risk of getting laneswapped (doesn't really matter in soloQ, seeing how rare laneswaps are)

Puppet33rOct 21, 20151 votes

I really don't understand this "least impact from top lane" thing going around boards lately. Fed Renekton Riven or pretty much any other toplaner tping in the middle of the drake fight in midgame is a disaster for the opponent team. Toplaners generally have pretty strong midgame with their tankiness and stunlocks it's just a matter of how will you use your tp.

Gregor GysiOct 21, 20151 votes

The problem is that the early-midgame is very often gamedeciding and thus being able to impact it is extremely important. However, toplane is far away from the action (which is at midlane/botlane/drake). While TP is a mighty tool it actually is the only tool toplane has to impact the important early/midgame. If TP fails then you are practically useless until it's up again. Once everyone starts grouping you are of course about as useful as everyone else, but it doesn't make up for your early/midgame. Toplane does have impact, but it's simply less than all the other roles have (ADC is the lategame carry who is the most important role when it comes to objective control, support sets up vision and also heavily impacts early/midgame/teamfights in general, jungle is able to influence every lane and the early game in general, midlane gets solo lane EXP/is able to roam freely/good for solocarrying).

UBcrawlinOct 21, 20151 votes

Yes adc's have an enormous impact on the game. With all of these 7 minute or 8 minute 5v5's bot lane top laners have a very large impact on which bottom lane comes out with a distinct advantage which thus can determine which is more likely to be strong come late game. While the influence is executed by the bot lane, top lane is still having a large impact on which bot lane is more likely to be successful. Being weaker than the enemy bot lane really hinders your ability to get items through means of farming and through means of kills.

Gregor GysiOct 21, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Yes adc's have an enormous impact on the game. With all of these 7 minute or 8 minute 5v5's bot lane top laners have a very large impact on which bottom lane comes out with a distinct advantage which thus can determine which is more likely to be strong come late game. While the influence is executed by the bot lane, top lane is still having a large impact on which bot lane is more likely to be successful. Being weaker than the enemy bot lane really hinders your ability to get items through means of farming and through means of kills.

You know, I still think that the botlane has a higher influence on the botlane than the toplane does have ;) As I said, yes, toplane does have some impact - but TP is not an advantage above other lanes but rather something to make up for a disadvantage.

UBcrawlinOct 21, 20151 votes

It's because historically the top lane actually was pretty much left alone until the grouping part of the game, usually around the 20 minute mark or so. But I can tell you right now that if the enemy top laner uses teleport to return to lane I'm spamming for my team to set up wards for teleport and to start dragon because I already know that we will win that fight.

Only Play DariusOct 20, 20158 votes

Every game i'm Nasus against Darius Renekton , where they shove me under my turret all game and repeatedly dive me, and my jungler can't be bothered to even show his face once in a while and at the very least trick them into playing more cautiously. Then my team has the balls to ask why I would rather spend midgame stacking and splitpushing than helping them

U4fyn2vZzWOct 20, 20151 votes

This is the reason I only play lane bullies top, because if you're going to spend all game alone (lets face it, no one EVER goes top) then you minds aswell have the capability to wreck lane alone innately.

Only Play DariusOct 20, 20152 votes

Ehh, not sure about that. It's funny, not trying to be that guy but it seems like every time I play Darius and get even slightly ahead, the enemy jungler and/or midlaner will start camping the living shit out of me for the rest of the game (I know Darius is a gank magnet but still). Yet when I lose lane my jungler says "Not worth it to gank losing lanes" lol.

Must be one of those "Law of Shaco" type situations.

Also I main Nasus and I actually do wreck most lanes, I rarely do poorly in lane except for when I get put up against a hard counter like Darius/Renek/Vlad or someone I just cannot kill and snowball off of like Cho/Mundo.

LittleBlastOct 20, 20151 votes

People dont expect how much dmg a nasus can deal early.

SaltyKrackaOct 21, 20152 votes

...None?

Earlygame Nasus does fuck-all for damage, and will lose trades against just about everybody.

You have to be incredibly bad (and I'm talking fighting Nasus in a large creepwave of his while he's managed to tag you with his E) to lose a trade or solo kill against Nasus before level 6.

Captain AishiOct 20, 20151 votes

I wouldn't call renekton a nasus hard counter, it's more of a lane where Renekton needs to gain a massive advantage early otherwise the lane is VERY nasus favored

Only Play DariusOct 21, 20152 votes

Nasus's only hope against lane bullies is to cower under turret and stack there. Renekton being one of the best turret divers in the game, can make this impossible especially if his jungler helps him dive pre-6. A properly built Renekton will be able to chunk 35% of Nasus's HP each combo early game and there isn't shit Nasus can do about it. Yes Nasus will outscale Renek but an experienced Renekton player will have Nasus shutdown for so long that it won't matter.

Hinro HonatoOct 21, 20151 votes

lets face it, no one EVER goes top

Come on now, That's not true. We all know the enemy jungler is going to gank top. They always do.

kaltenashesOct 20, 20157 votes

i once lost a inhib without team help, ever i didnt feed, but i couldnt hold my lane, eventually the enemy top laner won the game

Only Play DariusOct 20, 20151 votes

Bet it was a Nasus

kaltenashesOct 20, 20156 votes

i wish, it was a trynda with 30 flat ad runes...his over 100 ad at lvl 1 was so rapist

Only Play DariusOct 20, 20156 votes

Lol the other splitpushing god

Unfortunately that's how Tryndamere works, overwhelms his lane opponent by pushing nonstop and being resistant to ganks. Best thing to do is honestly let him take your outer/inner turrets quickly because he is going to take them way or another, might as well let him finish early so you can roam while your teammates rotate to top inhib turret to stall Trynd and goonsquad him while he is overextended. Unfortunately your team didn't do this, not entirely your fault. Really Nasus is the only one in the game capable of shutting down Tryndamere without team assistance, otherwise Tryndamere is designed to rip apart teams that don't work together (which is also why Trynd is shit at teamfighting)

Other than that rushing a couple of these item 3047 item 3143 item 3110 item 3075 will slow Trynd down considerably.

63536895_DELOct 20, 20154 votes

Looks like someone's forgotten their basics. When losing lane with no hope of winning you roam, forget about your tower, if you're constantly losing trades its coming down soon anyway. This only applies to outer tower, if you're pushed to the inner tower, defend that shit to the death. But if an enemy like malphite is overextended to the inner tower and you still don't get help, then you're team doesn't deserve you, they chose to make it a 4v5. But if you roam (especially with a champ like FIzz) then you can at least make you're other two lanes win.

Rot PandaOct 20, 20153 votes

"Top lane is called an Island" Christ I remember back in S1-PreS3 when you'd run into friendly top laners that would just chat while farming, since no one ever wanted to gank top.

But when they did gank top it was a glorious double kill for my Ignite Surge Rumble.. I miss those days.

Gregor GysiOct 21, 20151 votes

Well yeah, as you mentioned people usually took ignite back then so it actually wasn't this farmfest but rather a cheesefest (at least I remember it that way..).

ihaveapotionOct 20, 20153 votes

welcome to ALL my games, you need to learn that you cannot depend on anyone in this game, do not pick champs that depend on others, this is an antisocial game regardless of it being promoted as a team game, noone will teamplay unless you duo or teamqeue. good luck. sorry for the truth, i also cant stand it but what can we do. Riot will never fix it because they monetize on the (bubbled) competitive scene.

RalanrOct 20, 20153 votes

When I play top I usually start roaming after I get the first tower. It has rarely been a regretful decision.

There's one thing that bothers me with top lane. It has no objectives in the first 20 minutes yet I feel it has the most lane bully/early game oriented champions. What is the deal with that?

Top lane needs the back up more than bot when it comes to ganks. Your ADC has a support to back them up and reel them back from bad plays (hopefully). Top is alone and winning 1v2 isn't common.

NemeBroOct 20, 20153 votes

I prefer top lane being an island. Better I lose lane myself than to have the half health Kha'zix gank the level 3, full health Riven for the level 2 Nasus and transfer double buffs (and possibly a double kill if I am dumb enough to try and save him) to her.

youngjake93Oct 21, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Spicy Rice,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qyPiYtnb,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-10-20T08:57:53.137+0000)

But if your top laner is asking for help, don't just ignore them. At least say something like, we are coming, please hold, or something of the like. It's incredibly depressing in top lane, to be laning without a shred of hope of coming out semi-useful.

As an example, my last game, I played Fizz vs a Malphite in order to let me J4 avoid laning against malph. In the end, i was constantly out traded, and had no help what so ever. And after lane phase, i was literally called useless by my jinx and nami. I had asked for help, and I was told to stop bitching.

All I can say, is that, that was honestly a game I wanted to purposefull afk, just because i felt like i spent 30 mins, doing nothing.

Fizz counters Malphite though. I agree with the idea, but how did he out trade you?

Ale non è maleOct 20, 20151 votes

I agree that top laners shouldn't be left alone. Now that teleport is meta, you could always have that guy coming from the island coming down the map and carry you to the win if you let him being fed too

By the way, pick Fizz in a Malphite is kinda stupid, Fizz does not have the tools to poke Malph and not let him have his shield up, so that Fizz has never a chance to assassinate a properly played Malph. J4 is a better match-up by a lot

Earl EulrichOct 20, 20151 votes

though Malph sucks at 1v1 all inns and does not have the tools to really bully anyone from farming (at least without bluebuff) - thus it´s a rather fine matchup for Fizz, you can just farm up till 6-9 and then win the 1v1 all in (or your jungler helps out early and you just get going from the start).

Ale non è maleOct 20, 20151 votes

Malph doesn't have trouble farming vs Fizz, though, and by late game he beats in utility Fizz for his team if it has the minimum decent coordination required for a winning team Malph problems are against low CD poke and get to his power spike in late game, and he shouldn't have these problem vs Fizz if he stays safe enough malph can lose the 1 vs 1 but he should win game at the end because Fizz can't bother him too much when malph is at his weakest point

Earl EulrichOct 20, 20151 votes

that really depends...picking Fizz top is mostly for splitpushing, and he can splitpush 1v1 vs Malph without troubles, denying Malph his wincondition of superior teamfighting either way (either malph gets a lot of mr, really taking a toll on his teamfighting - or he builds "standard", getting solokilled by Fizz under his turret). So it sort of gets back to the OP...if his team helps Fizz getting ahead there´s a good chance they win the game, if they watch him falter they end up in a 5v4 teamfighting scenario and most likly lose.

Ale non è maleOct 20, 20151 votes

Fizz is a champ that depends mostly on your skill vs an enemy skill. Once Malph build Bami + MR I'm not sure Fizz can dive so easily under turret unless Malph is eating the ulti skillshots and being damaged by Fizz dash when shield is down unless Fizz is more proficient than Malph On equal ground as far as skill go and proper jungle assistence for Malph, Fizz should rarely be able to dive in and go out without trading his life The main mistake Maplh can do is pushing the lane and not stall it after level 3-4, when Fizz can start to farm also under his turret and left him open to ganks, if he can manage the wave he should be equal or have an upper hand

Earl EulrichOct 20, 20153 votes

Fizz is a champ that depends mostly on your skill vs an enemy skill.

in a 5v5...yea. 1v1 though the sort of only thing he relies on is massive-dmg-output once he hits the ult+high base stats for survivability. The reason trinity-fizz got huge in SoloQ had mostly been that he´s just very easy to play like that...it´s mostly rightclicking and winning 1v1 - if malph pushes to far he just won´t rreach his own turret before going down to Fizz w, making him rather vulnerable to freezes from Fizz (though ofc getting the freeze is sort of a skill-matchup). like most of the times though it´s not a winning lane for Malph, his aim is to just survive and be relevant in teamfights.

Ale non è maleOct 20, 20151 votes

This must not be a winning lane for Malph anyway, it would not make sense as he is a tank and Fizz a mid game oriented champs...it must be a lose/even lane for Malph, and if Malph goes even, Malph team win the game

Earl EulrichOct 20, 20151 votes

though what´s the argument then anyway? i think sometime along the way we got sidetracked here...so going back to the point of origen i think we can agree that in this matchup Malph can play on an island, as his only goal is to stay relevant - while Fizz cannot play on an island, as he needs to snowball the 1v1 if he wants to win the game - therefor his team should put as much resources top as they can (which is the case for most bruiser/carry-tops compared to the more tank-centric ones).

Ale non è maleOct 20, 20153 votes

I completely agree with your post Just, going back to the point of origen, that was my reply to OP, I don't think that specifically picking Fizz top into a Malphite to avoid a J4-Maplhite match-up is a smart idea. I mean, it is not like Fizz is a better match-up than J4 vs Malph, could even be argued to be worse since Jarvan can stay relevant also in late game and so you are not forced to beat up Malph or lose

Ariel the CruelOct 21, 20151 votes

Vayne I don't even help my jungler who's getting invaded 2 feet away. Why the hell should I help you?

LuggOct 21, 20151 votes

The simple fact of the matter is that top lane is the most expendable lane. The jungler needs to spend more time at the bottom of the map because it gives him control over dragon and 2 lanes. It's better to let the enemy top to get fed than to let the enemy bot get fed and take dragons as well.

That's why top laners need to be smart and just farm under tower if they get behind at all.

Hinro HonatoOct 21, 20151 votes

sorry but what? You can take dragon and have every provision you mentioned covered while helping top lane.The map is split evenly so it's still two lanes being covered. It's a moot point. And to be honest ever champion in the game can solo dragon at level one. If you need that much time and control for it then you're doing something wrong. You will need to go into it looking to take it at level one but it can be done.

Now that dragon is not an issue or in need of protecting how about some help for the tanky person who will absorb the cooldowns eh? :p An adc isn't worth a thing when they get instanuked eating all the cooldowns.

LuggOct 21, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hinro Honato,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qyPiYtnb,comment-id=001b0000,timestamp=2015-10-21T10:28:04.471+0000)

And to be honest ever champion in the game can solo dragon at level one.

Uh, no. Most junglers can do it at level 2 IF they have Trailblazer smite and have their runes and masteries setup specifically to do it. Same is true for most champions level 3, but good luck trying it with someone like Singed. Any jungler who builds to solo dragon will be way less effective at every other job except taking Dragon and Baron.

Besides, a dragon that early isn't going to make any difference 99% of the time. In fact, it is going to set your jungler WAY behind and he won't have any early game impact at all.

Hinro HonatoOct 22, 20151 votes

It's not just junglers that can kill it at level one. Every champion in the game can and there are videos out there as evidence.

As you said your self dragon that early doesn't mean much. So why do you have to sacrifice a lane to control it?

LuggOct 22, 20151 votes

The only video I could find on it was level 3 champions soloing it.

As for mid and bot lane control, if you don't focus them early, you lose control of dragon later.

Hinro HonatoOct 22, 20151 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRHj2XGLmHE The level one video. It is a bit outdated there is no denying that but it is from the current season. However all of the current meta junglers can still do it fine. It's a pretty neat video and kinda surprising. I won't spoil it but number 2, 3, and 4 are very surprising.

LuggOct 22, 20151 votes

Sorry, but after watching the video, I call bullshit. There was some sort of hack or scripting for sure. Just look at how fast their health drops until around 20% and then it stops dropping at the same rate. It's not like Dragon starts doing less damage as the fight goes on.

Hinro HonatoOct 22, 20151 votes

It doesn't stop dropping at the same rate. Quite a few of those champions are popping biscuts. As for damage all of that is handled server side. There is no way to do what you're suggesting.

Also my mistake. I linked the wrong video. The one I intended was this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPN7-i_cS7k I was sleepy when I posted it so mistakes were made.

LuggOct 22, 20152 votes

Yeah, this is totally faked. Let's put it this way, Singed can barely solo red buff at level 1. There is no way he can do this. This is someone trolling people to try and pull this off and they are laughing at how many people are stupid enough to try. Half of the champs run out of mana by the time dragon is half health. I know since I have tried soloing dragon early with a few different champs when I wanted a challenge. Plus biscuits don't heal as fast as dragon does damage, that's a fact.

Hinro HonatoOct 22, 20151 votes

“For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible.” Just going to leave this here and move along. Good luck buddy.