Riot why is Skarner labeled as a Juggernaut when his gameplay says otherwise?

Chespin2013·Aug 10, 2015·9 votes·6,163 views

From what you guys keep saying is that juggernaut champs are ones that are slow moving and bulky champions like . Well so why is Skarner treated like one when he originally is not. Skarner is the fast crystal scorpion that goes in and ccs as many people as he can drag his target out with his ult into his team. That doesn't necessarily label him as a juggernaut at all really, sure he is bulky but not slow at all. I get that you guys were planning a rework for him and all but Skarner's whole identity of a champ doesn't really synchronize with what you guys are planning for him with this train of thought for a rework. So far from what I read on the pbe he seems probably better wait till we see but its just kinda strange how you guys associate Skarner with the other champions in terms of a Champions Role.

17 Comments

RiotRiotRepertoirAug 10, 20159 votes

We actually agree that Skarner is probably the odd one out amongst the four releases coming up, but we're actually okay with that. He's more about CC than the others, and probably less about damage overall, but we don't think it's absolutely necessary that there be a single damage profile that these guys all adhere to.

Skarner will probably function full time as some kind of off tank guy, while being a full on Juggernaut damage threat while under the effects of his passive.

The Yetii RiderAug 10, 20154 votes

{quoted}

We actually agree that Skarner is probably the odd one out amongst the four releases coming up, but we're actually okay with that. He's more about CC than the others, and probably less about damage overall, but we don't think it's absolutely necessary that there be a single damage profile that these guys all adhere to.

Skarner will probably function full time as some kind of off tank guy, while being a full on Juggernaut damage threat while under the effects of his passive.

Ah, good. I wanted to ask you something about Skarner but I don't have a PBE account so I couldn't post this when I saw it.

You said on the forum that you want Skarner to be a "best in class objective control", but all the MS and AS in the world isn't going to take that spot from Nunu.

I play a lot of Nunu. A LOT of Nunu. I have played Nunu against Trundle (another champion with a large zone of high AS and MS on demand) and I can tell you that it doesn't matter how fast the champion can take dragon or baron (Sated Devourer Shyvana? Nope) it won't stop a good Nunu from Flash + Q + Smite and then dying. One death for a huge steal is definitely worth, especially when dragon is a permanent buff.

Now, you could reply that Skarner will control the objective in other ways, but your words were "Best in Class Objective Control". If you really want Skarner to be better at objective control than Nunu, well A) I'd dispute that goal simply because it's already Nunu's thing and if you take it away from him successfully that's not very fair to Nunu players and B) There's no way for you to make a champion that is better at controlling neutral objectives than Nunu when Nunu's entire kit makes him a monster counterjungler.

RiotRiotRepertoirAug 10, 20158 votes

Good question. I'm on my phone more so I won't be too wordy.

First, we don't actually consider Nunu to be in the same class as Skarner, in that Skarner is intended to be more of a damage presence than Nunu.

If you wanted objective control, but needed damage still, I'd expect skarner to be a better choice. Also, Nunu controls objectives primarily through his secure combo, whereas Skarner through fight presence and power around the objectives.

Less relevant, but still interesting, Skarner's Impale will prevent Nunu from Smiling or Consuming, so he can actually shut that down if played well.

AwoofAug 10, 201515 votes

{quoted}

Skarner's Impale will prevent Nunu from Smiling

Nunu Skarner Nunu item 3070

The Yetii RiderAug 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Good question. I'm on my phone more so I won't be too wordy.

First, we don't actually consider Nunu to be in the same class as Skarner, in that Skarner is intended to be more of a damage presence than Nunu.

If you wanted objective control, but needed damage still, I'd expect skarner to be a better choice. Also, Nunu controls objectives primarily through his secure combo, whereas Skarner through fight presence and power around the objectives.

Less relevant, but still interesting, Skarner's Impale will prevent Nunu from Smiling or Consuming, so he can actually shut that down if played well.

Great. That all makes sense.

I do have another question though. It's slightly relevant, but I hope you'll indulge me (You've definitely been answering my questions all night, so thank you for that).

When we had the Warwick rework up a while back, the guy working on it (Can't remember, maybe it was Zenon, maybe Xypherous) said that Riot was discussing the validity of suppression as a CC type and how it feels for both sides. Because of this, the Warwick rework he was working on had made Infinite Duress a 2.5 second stun rather than a suppression.

Now you have a chance to rework Skarner but you're leaving Impale as a suppression. Is there a reason for that? Has the topic of changing the CC type come up in your ideas stage at all?

RiotRiotRepertoirAug 10, 20156 votes

Now you have a chance to rework Skarner but you're leaving Impale as a suppression. Is there a reason for that? Has the topic of changing the CC type come up in your ideas stage at all?

It didn't really come up, but when I think about it, I'm not sure I'd change it anyway. This probably won't be a popular opinion, but if anything, I'd actually prefer to make Suppression stronger by making QSS not work against it, and force all counterplay into "interruption" effects by enemies. Imo, this would let us balance the spells around their intended duration and counterplay, and not have as much of the feeling that all the characters with Suppressions would be better off with long duration knockups or something. That said, in that model specifically, Skarner's ult may make more sense as a stun, because there is no interruption counterplay currently.

RetillinAug 10, 20151 votes

"feeling that all the characters with Suppressions would be better off with long duration knockups or something" But long duration hard CC has been getting removed. Outside of knock ups. Doesn't this work counter to the idea of "counter-play" that Riot is pushing lately? (silence/fear/stuns all getting reduced in length)

terkmcAug 10, 20151 votes

Well his surpression is also the hardest to apply out of a (Malz and Urgot is ranged, Warwick is a blink) ll so he could keep his suppression because instead of interruption counter-play, its a keep away counter-play, similiar to how Udyr melee power is balanced by the fact that for him to get to you is very hard
And kudos for not taking the stance of nerfing suppression and making it the ultimate cc. If we can have hyper mobility we can have hyper disables too.

NullDragonAug 10, 20152 votes

It kinda seems more like Skarner is the "I am the best character in the entire game in every aspect when under the effect of my passive." And gating his power that way?

Cause he outdamages pretty much everyone else inside that passive too. While being really tanky and really fast. So you either just say "eh whatever lets go someplace else" and walk away from that location or sneak in and take his passive from him?

terkmcAug 10, 20153 votes

Why was there a decision to shift Skarner from his rushdown relentless tank style to Juggernaut slow and imposing tank style?

RiotRiotRepertoirAug 10, 20156 votes

We had some discussion about where a lot of these tanky melee guys should fall as far as what they bring to their team, and we decided that scorpion beast seemed like he should regularly present himself as a real damage threat.

As others have mentioned, this decision incurred some cost to the tanky sticky guy people are used to seeing from him, but I do think it's sound logic that a scorpion monster should be a kill threat.

terkmcAug 10, 20154 votes

Wasn't old Skarner a kill threat also with his mixed damage, perfect TF usage, high base damage and a good as steroid in his Q. He was constantly a threat in melee range with it.

scorpion beast seemed like he should regularly present himself as a real damage threat.

Would limiting his power to crystal spire be counter-productive to this design? Now he isn't a "regular" damage threat anymore, he just transform into the god of death in his zone and become sup-par outside of it. And plus, "kill-threat" and mobility are not mutually exclusive on a tank. In comparision with other Juggernaut, Skarner is very single-target focused and I think that's a good trade off for his rush down gameplay, where-as Darius can pull multiple people, output significant aoe damage with 40 cdr Q and passive and then chain execute, Garen has his E and Morde kit is chockfull of aoe. In comparison, Skarner only has one aoe , Q (E is pityfull damage wise), and its main-usage is to proc single target sheen, even his cc require him to manually auto-attack people.

Historically, Skarner has been one of the zoom zoom guy who speed into battle at Mach 5 and ruin one person day, similar to Rammus and Hecarim. Why was this deemed to be in need of change, an almost 180-degree identity shift from speedy blitzkrieg into a slow and heavy tank?

SkiasAug 10, 20152 votes

{quoted}

We actually agree that Skarner is probably the odd one out amongst the four releases coming up, but we're actually okay with that. He's more about CC than the others, and probably less about damage overall, but we don't think it's absolutely necessary that there be a single damage profile that these guys all adhere to.

Skarner will probably function full time as some kind of off tank guy, while being a full on Juggernaut damage threat while under the effects of his passive.

I made a suggestion in a thread that Skarner's interaction with the Crystal Obelisks be changed a little.

Skarner captures pillars right? So he has a passive that functions similar to Zeke's Harbinger. As he moves around and does... Skarner things... it charges from 0 - 100. At 100 He's given some sort of boost. Damage, Speed, Shield, whatever. The rate at which it charges and the intensity of the buff depends on how many of said Obelisks he currently controls. So basically, if he controls none, it doesn't charge at all. If he controls all of them, he's like a fully charged battery, with constant power bursts.

I think this solves his issue of his power being greatly gated by how small the current bubbles are and the likelyhood of a fight even occuring within it. It feels less... oppressive.

What do you think?

MrSoullessnessAug 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

We actually agree that Skarner is probably the odd one out amongst the four releases coming up, but we're actually okay with that. He's more about CC than the others, and probably less about damage overall, but we don't think it's absolutely necessary that there be a single damage profile that these guys all adhere to.

Skarner will probably function full time as some kind of off tank guy, while being a full on Juggernaut damage threat while under the effects of his passive.

Well im not all to happy about how hard you guys seem to be hitting his ult. he is going from 700 maximum damage to 200+200% ad. is there any chance you will make it so if you have a choice to use the ult while they are charged TO BE stunned from his E so that the ult does more damage like on live but maybe not as much? like how it works on live with his passive? that way if you choice the damage route they to more damage but spend less time CCed since we would now have to wait for E to be up again?

Lawny ToastAug 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

We actually agree that Skarner is probably the odd one out amongst the four releases coming up, but we're actually okay with that. He's more about CC than the others, and probably less about damage overall, but we don't think it's absolutely necessary that there be a single damage profile that these guys all adhere to.

Skarner will probably function full time as some kind of off tank guy, while being a full on Juggernaut damage threat while under the effects of his passive.

I might be crazy... but I feel like you will be "Under the effects of his passive" for only about 15% of the game... Since you are already adding this objective grab to the game, how about going a little bigger; make it more of a realistic reward. Have you thought about lowering the power of the passive but extending the area where it can affect him? You try to grab an area and three enemies show up. Wouldn't you just skitter away? Passiveless and useless in this tiny area for the time being.

Once again... call me crazy, but I think that there should only be 4 shrines on the map located in the 4 specific corners of the jungle. These shrines (when captured) buff the entire jungle sector (some sort of blue crystal effect on the ground or in the air, red on the enemy team). This effect would only be seen in the jungle when your team has vision of the shrine. Or at all times, however you feel is best. I understand that In order to get this balanced you would have to make the passive bonus a fraction of the current benifit, but with this passive there would be much more time spent under the influence of the passive and much more incentive to ward against him. Also, the minigame of teams controlling shrines would be much more beneficial...

Imagine being that skarner in the current state. "Ok team... if we are going to fight them... make sure it's in this tiny bubble so i can actually dish out some useful damage! Thanks team!"

Versus what i propose, "Oh crap guys... skarner has control of this jungle, keep your eyes peeled and stay on our carry!"

AtheosisXAug 10, 20154 votes

God I wish Riot had never come up with this Juggernaut thing. It means literally nothing...

VoidgolemAug 10, 20152 votes

well -originally- Skarner was that champion that you could kite forever but once he got into melee you were probably dead.

Not immediately dead, mind you, but dude could sit there and churn out Q's forever unless you blew him up or locked him down.

This was viewed as lacking counterplay so they made him even easier to peel in exchange for worse damage and higher mobility. Which was terrible so they gave him a stun too.