Should hard cc have high damage?

miightofdemacia·Jun 14, 2019·12 votes·10,500 views

Disclaimer, I do not play ranked or play this game competitively so I do not know how much impact nerfing the damage of hard cc abilities/passives will affect the game. That being said, I think it's a bit unfair that some champions have passives and abilities that not only have great crowd control but deal a lot of burst damage.

The biggest push to me bringing this up is that I faced a neeko as jhin in arams. After getting a few triple kills, the neeko spent most of the game just diving through our front lines with her clone technique and ult so if I don't have flash up, I am basically dead.

Not only did I have to be scared of her orb she shoots out that not only goes through multiple units, but also snares/stuns me for 3 years once fully leveled. It makes morgana's q look like a joke considering morgana's q can only hit the first thing so you can hide behind minions to avoid it. Neeko's goes through multiple units and crowd controls several units and get this.... the duration is even longer than morgana's q. Wow fair right? Okay okay I'm ranting a bit.

But I think it's stupid just how much damage neeko's ult alone does when it also stuns. So basically if I didn't have flash up as jhin, she just runs towards me, or snowballs to a minion or ally close to me, ults, and im basically dead because her ult stuns me and does over half my hp.

I personally feel like if a champion has crowd control, they shouldn't have high base damage and/or high scaling on the crowd control ability. The trade off should be that if you choose to play a high crowd control champion, you sacrifice damage. If you don't have high crowd control then you should have higher damage to make up for lack of crowd control. I believe this is a fair way to balance things and promotes teamwork because then you can have some players use crowd control while another with less crowd control dish out the damage.

This is my opinion and I would like hear other opinions on this matter whether you believe high crowd control passives/abilities should have high damage or not.

66 Comments

U R Good At GameJun 14, 201911 votes

So riot said in an ask riot a couple years ago why CC has dmg. "It feels good to use"....no really. They used chogath as an example and said if chogath Q didn't do alot of dmg it wouldn't "feel" good. This of course also at a time Cho was S tier.... So essentially people do damage on CC so you can stroke your massive E-peen when you land it.

miightofdemaciaJun 14, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=I Play This Game,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qq9gxAmW,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-06-14T18:05:53.200+0000)

So riot said in an ask riot a couple years ago why CC has dmg. "It feels good to use"....no really. They used chogath as an example and said if chogath Q didn't do alot of dmg it wouldn't "feel" good. This of course also at a time Cho was S tier.... So essentially people do damage on CC so you can stroke your massive E-peen when you land it.

Lol nice, I didn't know this but that's pretty funny. Hmm I guess it does feel good to do damage, but I personally just think it's a little unfair that hard cc does damage while other abilities that do damage dont have hard cc. Hm what do you think? Do you think it's fair that hard cc does high damage? Do you think hard cc should do high damage even if it's unfair? Do you think it's fair because the hard cc abilities are hard to execute? I'd like to know your opinion if you want to share :)

U R Good At GameJun 14, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Lol nice, I didn't know this but that's pretty funny. Hmm I guess it does feel good to do damage, but I personally just think it's a little unfair that hard cc does damage while other abilities that do damage dont have hard cc. Hm what do you think? Do you think it's fair that hard cc does high damage? Do you think hard cc should do high damage even if it's unfair? Do you think it's fair because the hard cc abilities are hard to execute? I'd like to know your opinion if you want to share :)

I don't necesarily think it's unfair because champions work based on power budgets. Meaning if malphite like someone said earlier, if that champion had all his damage removed from his ult that just means he would have left-over dmg in his power budget and riot would assign it to an ability like his Q. So now not only does malphite have a solid 5-man engage, he can also point and click nuke you w/o going ap because all the damage got moved to his Q. Or maokai, if they took the damage off his W they would just throw it on his Q or E. You would essentially have tanks that are playing like beefy mages.

miightofdemaciaJun 14, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=I Play This Game,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qq9gxAmW,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2019-06-14T19:25:05.401+0000)

I don't necesarily think it's unfair because champions work based on power budgets. Meaning if malphite like someone said earlier, if that champion had all his damage removed from his ult that just means he would have left-over dmg in his power budget and riot would assign it to an ability like his Q. So now not only does malphite have a solid 5-man engage, he can also point and click nuke you w/o going ap because all the damage got moved to his Q. Or maokai, if they took the damage off his W they would just throw it on his Q or E. You would essentially have tanks that are playing like beefy mages.

I get what you are saying, I would agree that yea it would be better if all malphites big damage was his ult... although i do think some champions have higher power budget than others and need to be nerfed. I think instead of removing his damage from his ult and putting it into his other abilities, instead just remove the damage from his ult and don't put it into his other abilities. He doesn't need damage. His ult alone will still be useful without the damage in it. That way the only reason he is going to ult is so he can do a ranged aoe knock up attack, not a ranged aoe knock up attack that nukes.

I think his abilities that have cc or hard cc, the base damage and scaling is very low. The harder the cc, the less amount of damage. And any other champion's cc or hard cc should follow this rule. Just my opinion. If they get cc or hard cc, they get less damage to make it fair.

Hèntaî Jun 14, 20199 votes

Honestly hard cc shouldnt do damage, that should be its trade off for it being HARD cc

miightofdemaciaJun 14, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Honestly hard cc shouldnt do damage, that should be its trade off for it being HARD cc

I personally agree. I also think that tanks should not do damage as a trade off to them being hard to kill and providing crowd control or other utility. I don't play taric but I feel like taric is a good example of a tank because he doesn't have high damage but is hard to kill, provides cc, heals, invulnerability with ult, and that w of his whatever it does lol. I know you can build taric to actually fight and do decent damage, but generally taric I find is a good example of a tank. Their purpose should not be to kill the backline or weaken the adc so much that the adc is out of the fight imo.

Meteora707Jun 15, 20191 votes

i don't think people realize how much more damage the rest of the champions kit would have to do for this to be balanced lmao

CytheGuyJun 15, 20191 votes

It makes the ability more teamfight oriented and would probably show up on a tank

Hèntaî Jun 15, 20192 votes

You dont need to compensate by adding more damage, thats one of the problems in this game anyhow. Would you really like to see Blitzcrank with more damage on w/e/r? Or even Pyke ? Nah fam, Im good.

Meteora707Jun 15, 20191 votes

you think pyke or blitz will have a win ratio above 30% when their Q and E do 0 damage? lmao

Hèntaî Jun 15, 20192 votes

Yes actually, they pull the target to them and provide additional hard cc for your team to collapse on. Especially blitz since the target gets pulled right on top of his location. As an example; Blitz or pyke pulls or knocks up/stuns, its that cc that nets you the kill in a teamfight. It will make hard cc champs more oriented towards what the game is about, teamplay.

Meteora707Jun 16, 20191 votes

yes removing 900 damage from a champions kit that's already at 50% wr will balance them perfectly :^)

Hèntaî Jun 17, 20192 votes

Yes cause tanks dont need damage, and pyke has his ult and stun, pull/slow. A champ doesnt even need a 50% to still be doing too much. Ie: Yasuo, Akali, Yuumi, etc etc..

Meteora707Jun 23, 20191 votes

are people actually this dumb lmao

Pika FoxJun 14, 20194 votes

If its an ult, then yes, it gets high damage. Especially if the ult is on a squishy mage in melee range with a delayed activation.

miightofdemaciaJun 14, 20196 votes

but neeko isn't melee LOL

Pika FoxJun 14, 20197 votes

{quoted}

but neeko isn't melee LOL

Her ult pretty much is.

GonahtanuGepardiJun 14, 20193 votes

Let's start by making something clear: ARAM is not part of the argument when talking about game balance. So in neeko's case, the high damage and cc are actually fair in one ability because it's actually almost impossible to hit the enemy with it. Neeko's ult is one of the worst ults in the game despite it's damage and utility because it's so hard to hit. It's a lot easier in aram because you can use the snowball and that's why aram mechanics can't be part of the discussion (unless you want to nerf her only in aram).

The trade off should be that if you choose to play a high crowd control champion, you sacrifice damage.

That is actually how it currently goes. Neeko's damage is very lack luster without her ult and considering how hard it is to land, she can be considered a low damage champion. Same with orianna, anivia etc. and tanks. Control mages have burst but many champions deal more damage than them.

Ali BahbaJun 14, 20194 votes

{quoted}

Let's start by making something clear: ARAM is not part of the argument when talking about game balance. So in neeko's case, the high damage and cc are actually fair in one ability because it's actually almost impossible to hit the enemy with it. Neeko's ult is one of the worst ults in the game despite it's damage and utility because it's so hard to hit. It's a lot easier in aram because you can use the snowball and that's why aram mechanics can't be part of the discussion (unless you want to nerf her only in aram).

That is actually how it currently goes. Neeko's damage is very lack luster without her ult and considering how hard it is to land, she can be considered a low damage champion. Same with orianna, anivia etc. and tanks. Control mages have burst but many champions deal more damage than them.

neeko ult/hard to hit

pick one?

ModAcademy KaynJun 15, 20193 votes

Sounds like someone who doesn't play Neeko. Unless you actively hit your enhanced snare on an opponent, most people can walk out of the ult if you're simply approaching them. Neeko needs to put a lot more thought in how she actually gets her opponent to stay in her ult's range long enough, without getting killed. Most teamfights late game, you're more or less restricted to using flash to hit any carries because of no mobility, or you're forced to actively flank and approach them from the side or behind, which is risky.

miightofdemaciaJun 14, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Let's start by making something clear: ARAM is not part of the argument when talking about game balance. So in neeko's case, the high damage and cc are actually fair in one ability because it's actually almost impossible to hit the enemy with it. Neeko's ult is one of the worst ults in the game despite it's damage and utility because it's so hard to hit. It's a lot easier in aram because you can use the snowball and that's why aram mechanics can't be part of the discussion (unless you want to nerf her only in aram).

That is actually how it currently goes. Neeko's damage is very lack luster without her ult and considering how hard it is to land, she can be considered a low damage champion. Same with orianna, anivia etc. and tanks. Control mages have burst but many champions deal more damage than them.

okay well i dont play neeko, but i do know that her combo where she snares/stuns you without her ult and lobs that spell that hits you multiple times, that thing does lots of damage too without her ult. And I am also talking about other champs with cc too, not just mages. If you look at malphite, he does a decent chunk of damage to adcs whether he builds tank or ap. Blitz also does a ton of damage despite his hook, knock up already being useful without the damage component to it. Wukong ult same thing, yet it has really high ad scaling but can knock up everyone once. Amumu ult before his nerfs was doing ridiculous damage and if you also add in the bandage and his other attack besides the tears, he does a good chunk of damage yet has good cc plus some mobility with the bandage toss. It's almost like all crowd control abilities have high damage.

GonahtanuGepardiJun 15, 20191 votes

If you look at malphite, he does a decent chunk of damage to adcs whether he builds tank or ap.

That's because he needs to be a threat in order to force the enemy to focus him because he is a tank. If he didn't do damage, all he would have is one knock up and then he would get completely ignored in fights. He either needs damage, or more hard cc to be a threat that must be focused by carries.

Blitz also does a ton of damage despite his hook, knock up already being useful without the damage component to it.

Blitz's damage is non existent after laning and that's why he is incredibly bad unless you can land 90% of your hooks on an important member near your own allies.

Wukong ult same thing, yet it has really high ad scaling but can knock up everyone once.

Problem is that if you build ad on wukong, you become too squishy to actually use the ult for damage because you die very fast unless you cancel it, which means it's actually just a knock up. It's actually one of the worst ults in the game because of these contradictions.

Amumu ult before his nerfs was doing ridiculous damage and if you also add in the bandage and his other attack besides the tears, he does a good chunk of damage yet has good cc plus some mobility with the bandage toss.

And the damage on his ult is/was fine because it was so telegraphed. You would know exactly when he is going to use his ult so it was incredibly easy to avoid. Also, it's basically his only hard-hitting ability and his q doesn't count as mobility. Not to mention he has to build ap to even deal damage to begin with. He is basically a walking bomb that is very easy to counterplay and if he doesn't manage to land his combo, he is useless and dies very fast. So with those weaknesses, it's completely balanced to have that kind of damage and cc together.

It's almost like all crowd control abilities have high damage.

The problem with your arguments is that you are basically only talking about ults. They are called ultimate abilities for a reason. They are supposed to be more impactful than normal abilities.

miightofdemaciaJun 15, 20191 votes

{quoted}

That's because he needs to be a threat in order to force the enemy to focus him because he is a tank. If he didn't do damage, all he would have is one knock up and then he would get completely ignored in fights. He either needs damage, or more hard cc to be a threat that must be focused by carries.

Blitz's damage is non existent after laning and that's why he is incredibly bad unless you can land 90% of your hooks on an important member near your own allies.

Problem is that if you build ad on wukong, you become too squishy to actually use the ult for damage because you die very fast unless you cancel it, which means it's actually just a knock up. It's actually one of the worst ults in the game because of these contradictions.

And the damage on his ult is/was fine because it was so telegraphed. You would know exactly when he is going to use his ult so it was incredibly easy to avoid. Also, it's basically his only hard-hitting ability and his q doesn't count as mobility. Not to mention he has to build ap to even deal damage to begin with. He is basically a walking bomb that is very easy to counterplay and if he doesn't manage to land his combo, he is useless and dies very fast. So with those weaknesses, it's completely balanced to have that kind of damage and cc together.

The problem with your arguments is that you are basically only talking about ults. They are called ultimate abilities for a reason. They are supposed to be more impactful than normal abilities.

How am I only talking about ultimates? Annie can do high burst damage with her w and stun passive. Anivia also hits hard with her stun into ice shard combo disclaimer i dont play anivia. Plenty of champs with cc abilities that do high damage. blitzcrank's hook and e does a lot of damage normally to squishies, but even further with ap. Yet it's already useful without the damage component because of the hook knock up. Alistar's base damage on his w q is pretty good as well but then take it a step further when you go ap. The topic is not about ultimates, it's about crowd control passives/abilties in general and whether those crowd controls should have high damage on them or not.

GonahtanuGepardiJun 16, 20191 votes

How am I only talking about ultimates?

Because your examples so far were all ults besides maybe blitz and he does not damage without ult.

Annie can do high burst damage with her w and stun passive.

This, like pretty much every point after it, are only theoretical and not within realism. Annie doesn't deal much damage with only w (the stun passive doesn't even deal damage so if we only count her w, that's a fart in the wind). And if we count her using her q too, it still isn't much and in a realistic scenario, annie won't even be able to do a combo like that on a target that she wants to hit because of her VERY limited range. Annie needs a flash and ult to actually kill anyone.

blitzcrank's hook and e does a lot of damage normally to squishies

No it doesn't.

but even further with ap.

Well building damage should make you deal more damage... and it better deal more damage since his q is the only ability in his kit that even scales with ap so all of his damage has to come from it.

Yet it's already useful without the damage component because of the hook knock up.

But what does he do after it? He doesn't deal any damage so he can't even hook without allies being near and even if they are near, they might not follow it up or the one you hooked could potentially kill them because you now don't have anything to help them with. He needs that damage to be useful. Cc alone is never enough. He doesn't have enough damage to ever kill anyone by himself but he has the damage that matters when it comes to his allies finishing them off. And that's important to have.

Anivia also hits hard with her stun into ice shard combo

And here you are talking about a combo, not an ability with cc. It's the shard after that hits hard, not the q stun itself. Not to mention she actually needs to hit the enemy with it and the projectile is very slow so it's easy to dodge. Even if she lands the entire combo, she doesn't deal enough damage to kill. Is that actually too much damage for you? When they can't even kill an adc with full combo as a mage?

Every example you give has a weakness or a condition they have to fulfill in order to pull it off. That makes them balanced. If a hard cc with high damage would work like sona's q (press a button and the ability has high range and it always hits the enemy in range, don't even need to aim or click on the enemy), then i would understand your frustration but now i just can't.

miightofdemaciaJun 20, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Because your examples so far were all ults besides maybe blitz and he does not damage without ult.

This, like pretty much every point after it, are only theoretical and not within realism. Annie doesn't deal much damage with only w (the stun passive doesn't even deal damage so if we only count her w, that's a fart in the wind). And if we count her using her q too, it still isn't much and in a realistic scenario, annie won't even be able to do a combo like that on a target that she wants to hit because of her VERY limited range. Annie needs a flash and ult to actually kill anyone.

No it doesn't.

Well building damage should make you deal more damage... and it better deal more damage since his q is the only ability in his kit that even scales with ap so all of his damage has to come from it.

But what does he do after it? He doesn't deal any damage so he can't even hook without allies being near and even if they are near, they might not follow it up or the one you hooked could potentially kill them because you now don't have anything to help them with. He needs that damage to be useful. Cc alone is never enough. He doesn't have enough damage to ever kill anyone by himself but he has the damage that matters when it comes to his allies finishing them off. And that's important to have.

And here you are talking about a combo, not an ability with cc. It's the shard after that hits hard, not the q stun itself. Not to mention she actually needs to hit the enemy with it and the projectile is very slow so it's easy to dodge. Even if she lands the entire combo, she doesn't deal enough damage to kill. Is that actually too much damage for you? When they can't even kill an adc with full combo as a mage?

Every example you give has a weakness or a condition they have to fulfill in order to pull it off. That makes them balanced. If a hard cc with high damage would work like sona's q (press a button and the ability has high range and it always hits the enemy in range, don't even need to aim or click on the enemy), then i would understand your frustration but now i just can't.

Blitz doesn't do damage without ult? wtf? his hook and knock up combo and procing thunderlords does as much if not more than his ult active alone. If you build ap, he does high damage but also has the cc component of hook and knock up. Blitz should be meant to be a team based champ where he doesnt do the damage, he just pulls and cc someone while teammates finish off that person. Idk what world you live in, but annie does a lot of damage with just a simple stun and either q or w afterwards. Having ult only increases the burst even further. Her stun can easily come back when not in an all in brawl because you can just spam e or q low minions to refund q cooldown and mana and charge up the stun passive again. Having the stun lets her safely land 2 or 3 spells on you and get most people except tanks down to half or more. How is that not a lot of damage especially when it's safe since they are stunned?

GonahtanuGepardiJun 21, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Blitz doesn't do damage without ult? wtf? his hook and knock up combo and procing thunderlords does as much if not more than his ult active alone. If you build ap, he does high damage but also has the cc component of hook and knock up. Blitz should be meant to be a team based champ where he doesnt do the damage, he just pulls and cc someone while teammates finish off that person. Idk what world you live in, but annie does a lot of damage with just a simple stun and either q or w afterwards. Having ult only increases the burst even further. Her stun can easily come back when not in an all in brawl because you can just spam e or q low minions to refund q cooldown and mana and charge up the stun passive again. Having the stun lets her safely land 2 or 3 spells on you and get most people except tanks down to half or more. How is that not a lot of damage especially when it's safe since they are stunned?

Blitz doesn't do damage without ult?

He doesn't. Hook and knock up together are around 300 damage (not even that sometimes, both at max ranks) after resistances. Blitz doesn't take electrocute (thunderlord doesn't exist) so you can take that out of your argument as well. Not to mention using blitz as an argument is pointless since if he misses his hook, he becomes completely useless. So he kinda needs a compensation somewhere.

Blitz should be meant to be a team based champ where he doesnt do the damage, he just pulls and cc someone while teammates finish off that person.

And he is EXACTLY that. He doesn't do meaningful damage after laning (as i said multipel times before).

About the annie argument. Your arguments are completely worthless because they are completely based on theory and not on realistic scenarios. Annie's range is too short to just walk up to the enemy and use that combo against a decent opponent that isn't tanky enough to laugh at your damage. It's just out of realism. As a side note, her base damage's are among the lowest in league.

miightofdemaciaJun 21, 20191 votes

{quoted}

He doesn't. Hook and knock up together are around 300 damage (not even that sometimes, both at max ranks) after resistances. Blitz doesn't take electrocute (thunderlord doesn't exist) so you can take that out of your argument as well. Not to mention using blitz as an argument is pointless since if he misses his hook, he becomes completely useless. So he kinda needs a compensation somewhere.

And he is EXACTLY that. He doesn't do meaningful damage after laning (as i said multipel times before).

About the annie argument. Your arguments are completely worthless because they are completely based on theory and not on realistic scenarios. Annie's range is too short to just walk up to the enemy and use that combo against a decent opponent that isn't tanky enough to laugh at your damage. It's just out of realism. As a side note, her base damage's are among the lowest in league.

Blitz does take electrocute. I only call it thunderlords because it basically is thunderlords but a few things changed. Even if they don't take electrocute, you can still take aftershock which I personally dont. But when I play blitz I always take electrocute because if you land hook you can easily proc electrocute with knock up auto attack or knock up ult. 300 damage along with the cc and having a teammate follow up is a lot of damage. Even if you took away the 300 damage and just had the knock up and pull, it's a lot of damage from just the teammate following up on your hook and knock up. the 300 damage is unnecessary.

But if you take into account the electrocute damage, along with any sheen item such as iceborn gauntlet, lich bane, or the unusual trinity force, blitz will hit really hard with his e and sheen. You are very underestimating the amount of damage blitz can do alone without assistance of a teammate, let alone when a teammate actually follows up on a hook. And during the hook combo, the person hooked basically is helpless unless for some cases like ezreal e.

It's very clear blitz does a good amount of damage going tanky, and a lot of damage going ap despite his cc already being useful without the damage.

Luther King Jr VJun 20, 20193 votes

logic: no meta: yes

miightofdemaciaJun 20, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Luther King Jr V,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qq9gxAmW,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2019-06-20T16:58:51.399+0000)

logic: no meta: yes

lol

ArenisJun 15, 20192 votes

the game in general has too much fucking damage in it right now, regardless of cc. but cc makes it insanely worse because unless you're a late game maokai right now if you get cc'd you lost nearly all your health bar, & god forbid you get chain cc'd. the worst part about it is people are now allowed to be tanks that also do huge amounts of damage & have their own chain cc (thanks aftershock!)

miightofdemaciaJun 15, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=JE SUIS CALME,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qq9gxAmW,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2019-06-15T01:59:54.341+0000)

the game in general has too much fucking damage in it right now, regardless of cc. but cc makes it insanely worse because unless you're a late game maokai right now if you get cc'd you lost nearly all your health bar, & god forbid you get chain cc'd. the worst part about it is people are now allowed to be tanks that also do huge amounts of damage & have their own chain cc (thanks aftershock!)

Yeah I totally agree. You know the game has too much damage when janna and soraka hurt now lol. And yea i hear about how op aftershock is but pls i hope they never revert back to the old tank meta where tank items were so broken that assassins would buy them and do really well.

GlaricionJun 15, 20192 votes

Hard CC takes up a lot of a champion's power budget. Big nukes do too.

The more power you put into a single ability, the more of the champion's total power budget that ability should take up, or the more downsides that ability should have in order to siphon off power.

Nothing's inherently wrong w/ hard CC and big damage being on the same ability, just has to be done carefully.

Neeko's ult has a 90 (realistically 60) second CD, has a long wind-up @ a short range on a non-melee champion w/ low mobility, and is on a kit in which her damage is spread out into multiple phases.

Pay more attention to what the Neeko is doing, take evasive maneuvers, you'll be fine. Not sure what the downvote on the tenacity and cleanse suggestion was for, she needs 3 seconds to do what needs to be done, it isn't like Rengar or Diana where they can be done in <1s.

I agree w/ Neeko's empowered E being a bit much though, they cut down the number of units that needed to be hit to achieve the max duration w/o reducing said duration iirc.

King LividJun 22, 20192 votes

Hard cc? High damage?

TahmKench

I got some tank stats for ya too

miightofdemaciaJun 22, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Hard cc? High damage?

I got some tank stats for ya too

Exactly!! Yeah I don't know how strong kench is now, but before pike was in league, kench was doing insane amounts of damage while having great cc and survivability. Kench had a long ranged skillshot slow which was not that hard to land considering he walks up and 1v1 anyone and then they are running so you can easily lick them while they running, but the lick can also stun. Don't remember how much damage it did but his autos and eating an opponent hurt a ton. Can use basically almost a second health bar because can turn grey health into giant shield, or if he doesnt use shield then he will convert a ton of grey health back into health which negated a ton of damage during trades. Not to mention he was naturally beefy but built tanky as well yet still did a lot of damage. Then if you try to kill the adc he has the most powerful protect tool where he can just eat a teammate and they are untargetable. At the time, no other champ had grey health mechanic so tahm had that advantage over almost anyone who didn't have built in sustain. Ugh i hated kench, but now who i hate more is pike.

kda akaliJun 14, 20191 votes

Neeko's goes through multiple units and crowd controls several units and get this.... the duration is even longer than morgana's q. Wow fair right? Okay okay I'm ranting a bit.

neeko e duration is not longer than morgana q. the empowered e which you get from hitting a minion first is 3 seconds at max rank. unempowered at max rank it only roots for 1.5 seconds. morgana q at max rank roots for 3 seconds, the same as an empowered neeko e at max rank. morgana q is also longer range.

also neeko is just naturally super strong in aram just like other champions with powerful teamfight cc. Kennen Amumu Orianna Malphite Janna . there are much better champions in aram compared to neeko Sona Lux Veigar Ziggs

So basically if I didn't have flash up as jhin, she just runs towards me, or snowballs to a minion or ally close to me, ults, and im basically dead because her ult stuns me and does over half my hp.

summoner 32 is aram only and other champions can use this interaction to their advantage. Galio Amumu Illaoi Lissandra Kennen Gnar . if she is able to walk up to you and land your ult you are doing something wrong. you can easily outrun neeko's ult radius with a ranged champion, especially jhin who has a movespeed boost. neeko's windup is 1.5 seconds and at the end she also ccs herself. your team easily has enough time to prepare.

miightofdemaciaJun 14, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=kda akali,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qq9gxAmW,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-06-14T19:14:59.960+0000)

neeko e duration is not longer than morgana q. the empowered e which you get from hitting a minion first is 3 seconds at max rank. unempowered at max rank it only roots for 1.5 seconds. morgana q at max rank roots for 3 seconds, the same as an empowered neeko e at max rank. morgana q is also longer range.

also neeko is just naturally super strong in aram just like other champions with powerful teamfight cc. . there are much better champions in aram compared to neeko

is aram only and other champions can use this interaction to their advantage. . if she is able to walk up to you and land your ult you are doing something wrong. you can easily outrun neeko's ult radius with a ranged champion, especially jhin who has a movespeed boost. neeko's windup is 1.5 seconds and at the end she also ccs herself. your team easily has enough time to prepare.

The reason she is able to walk up is because she gained 40 percent movespeed from her shapesplitter passive, then activates it and goes invisible running towards me for 0.5 seconds, then with her and her clone making it harder to know which one to cc, she eventually gets to me and ults hitting both me, and 2 other people near me who were supposed to peel for me except they are stunned and then neeko snares me with tangle-barbs and then blooming burst. I lose about 60-70 percent health from her ult alone, then get finished off with the damage from tangled barb and blooming burst. As jhin with no dash, I see her coming but she is too fast so I get hit by the ult. Obviously if I had a dash I could easily avoid her ult. Again, this discussion is not solely about neeko but the fact that hard cc abilities in general often do high damage. It's already powerful enough with the cc alone, but to have high damage on it as well makes it ridiculous. So let's say we aren't talking neeko specifically, there's still annie who has high burst with a powerful stun to help her cycle her cooldowns on someone, there's wukong whose ult does tons of damage and shreds armor with blackcleaver and also knocks up everything once, malphite with a super strong ult that is unstoppable has high damage and knocks up. Lots of other champs who has hard cc abilities that do a lot of damage. That is what this discussion is about, whether hard cc should have high damage or not when the ability is powerful with just the crowd control alone.

kda akaliJun 15, 20191 votes

Her W is 0.5 seconds and ult windup is 1.5 she cant hide the full duration of her ult unless she's in passive.

miightofdemaciaJun 15, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=kda akali,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qq9gxAmW,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2019-06-15T04:45:16.469+0000)

Her W is 0.5 seconds and ult windup is 1.5 she cant hide the full duration of her ult unless she's in passive.

Yes, her ult was not hidden. But the fact that I was playing jhin who has no dash so she runs up so fast that im basically in her ult range and I cannot escape unless I have flash. But again, neeko is just one example. plenty of other champs that I dislike having to deal with that have cc or hard cc doing high damage. I guess me personally i want cc and hard cc to get their damage nerfed to be more fair but from the responses, a good half or more people probably think it's fair and are used to cc/hard cc having damage. Still fun to discuss about

ChaosReynJun 16, 20191 votes

Hmm...In the specific case of Neeko and certain other cases like Azir or even Vi, I'd like to think that the reason their ults deal so much damage despite their cc is more because you're taking a squishy champion (yes, the typical Vi build right now still leaves her fairly squishy, so I'm going there) and throwing them essentially in the middle of everything in order to make good use of their ultimates. I agree Neeko snare is busted. Her ult, however, is actually pretty hard to use well. You use it too soon, everyone gets out. Use it too late, you die before it even pops. You use it and only hit 1 or 2 people, the other 3 all but instagib you from there.

There's a solid tradeoff in that her ult is an all-in ability that deals strong damage as well as cc's. Her snare cc's and does high damage without those conditions, and I personally would say it needs lower damage if they want it to snare for longer the more it passes through in order to be considered fair. But that's where the whole "it doesn't feel good" bit comes in. Which I get but I don't. I like dealing damage, sure. But you know what, I like comboing people, and if the E is already snaring someone for 40 years, I have more than enough time to land the rest of my basic kit on someone and feel really good for landing everything and profiting for my effort.

miightofdemaciaJun 20, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Hmm...In the specific case of Neeko and certain other cases like Azir or even Vi, I'd like to think that the reason their ults deal so much damage despite their cc is more because you're taking a squishy champion (yes, the typical Vi build right now still leaves her fairly squishy, so I'm going there) and throwing them essentially in the middle of everything in order to make good use of their ultimates. I agree Neeko snare is busted. Her ult, however, is actually pretty hard to use well. You use it too soon, everyone gets out. Use it too late, you die before it even pops. You use it and only hit 1 or 2 people, the other 3 all but instagib you from there.

There's a solid tradeoff in that her ult is an all-in ability that deals strong damage as well as cc's. Her snare cc's and does high damage without those conditions, and I personally would say it needs lower damage if they want it to snare for longer the more it passes through in order to be considered fair. But that's where the whole "it doesn't feel good" bit comes in. Which I get but I don't. I like dealing damage, sure. But you know what, I like comboing people, and if the E is already snaring someone for 40 years, I have more than enough time to land the rest of my basic kit on someone and feel really good for landing everything and profiting for my effort.

I can understand for azir since he is really squishy and hardly has any cc. Not sure if his e still cc anymore. Vi on the other hand is a bit more cheap in lower skill games imo because she is naturally tankier than azir since she is melee, and has her q as cc/mobility, then her ult although not perfect, is a point and click long ranged cc. I personally dont feel like neeko's ult is that hard to land but that's just my opinion.

You know what is a hard ult to land? Taric LOL. I'm not even joking. It takes so long just to start up so if you do it right away, the enemy will just wait it out. If you do it during middle of fight, the enemy tends to kill someone before the ult even comes off. But then I get that it could be really op if a few tweaks were made.

I agree with you on the barb though. She already has decent damage to combo with her snare where it's her 3 proc q on champs or her ult or both, but the fact that the snare itself also does a lot of damage makes it pretty stupid.

ChaosReynJun 20, 20192 votes

Don't get me wrong - I don't think her ult is difficult to land. I think that it's a lot like (full AP) Amumu's or Fiddle's - you can definitely land it on one target that you're aiming for...but you're probably gonna get rekt if you didn't use it to hit more than one person, and it's a lot harder to get more than one person consistently without trading your own life.

I definitely agree with Taric - it's really difficult to time it in such a way that it matters - either the person you're trying to save is dead, or the enemy just gtfos when you press the button. There's only a slim amount of Taric players that can consistently use it to save people...that's why when I play him, I just sort of use it to guarantee we take the enemy tower and walk away right after. xD

miightofdemaciaJun 20, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Don't get me wrong - I don't think her ult is difficult to land. I think that it's a lot like (full AP) Amumu's or Fiddle's - you can definitely land it on one target that you're aiming for...but you're probably gonna get rekt if you didn't use it to hit more than one person, and it's a lot harder to get more than one person consistently without trading your own life.

I definitely agree with Taric - it's really difficult to time it in such a way that it matters - either the person you're trying to save is dead, or the enemy just gtfos when you press the button. There's only a slim amount of Taric players that can consistently use it to save people...that's why when I play him, I just sort of use it to guarantee we take the enemy tower and walk away right after. xD

Ah that's a really good way to use taric's ult, just for the extra insurance of taking down the turret. I will use it like that next time I get taric thanks.

GonahtanuGepardiJun 21, 20191 votes

You are very underestimating the amount of damage blitz can do alone without assistance of a teammate, let alone when a teammate actually follows up on a hook.

If anything, you are overestimating his damage. I have 9 years of experience, i know exactly how much damage he does. This isn't even a debatable topic.

miightofdemaciaJun 22, 20191 votes

{quoted}

If anything, you are overestimating his damage. I have 9 years of experience, i know exactly how much damage he does. This isn't even a debatable topic.

it doesn't take 9 years to know blitz damage lmfao. you don't want to debate then leave, this is not a debate about blitz damage. This is a debate about whether hard crowd control should have high damge. But again, you don't want to debate then leave, I don't need you here lol.

GonahtanuGepardiJun 22, 20191 votes

{quoted}

it doesn't take 9 years to know blitz damage lmfao. you don't want to debate then leave, this is not a debate about blitz damage. This is a debate about whether hard crowd control should have high damge. But again, you don't want to debate then leave, I don't need you here lol.

it doesn't take 9 years to know blitz damage lmfao.

No shit. It just shows how much experience i have with it so i obviously know what i'm talking about.

This is a debate about whether hard crowd control should have high damge.

Don't use examples that you are not willing or able to defend then, like blitz. But ok, let's answer your question then, fast and simple. In a general sense, no they shouldn't have high damage. However, if the context requires it, then yes, they should have high damage. If that ability is basically the only skill that deals damage outside of your ultimate or it has high amount of counterplay (or even both) or if your champion doesn't benefit from building additional damage stats, then it should have high damage, blitz hook being a great example of that.

I don't need you here lol.

And we don't need you here, but let's be honest, no one here cares what you or I need. We hold no power over others here. So i'm gonna comment if i feel like it and you just have to deal with it.

AidanWRJun 23, 20191 votes

I understand if it's a champion that typically doesn't go damage, or a hard ability to hit. Like Sion, his q takes skill to figure out, but it deals a lot of damage. However, Neeko's ult is on a champion that builds straight damage, is the same AoE as a Nunu ult, with a chance that you don't even see it coming if she plays it right, that also stuns, and has a base damage of 650 with an ap ratio of 130%. Plus she has a root that can Morgana bind an entire team so that they have to take her ult unless they can get out of the root in time. My problem with Neeko isn't that she's broken, it's just that they made her a fairly reliable burst mage with heavy cc and an escape. That's like giving Syndra a dash so she could get in range to one-shot people with her ult, or escape

miightofdemaciaJun 24, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I understand if it's a champion that typically doesn't go damage, or a hard ability to hit. Like Sion, his q takes skill to figure out, but it deals a lot of damage. However, Neeko's ult is on a champion that builds straight damage, is the same AoE as a Nunu ult, with a chance that you don't even see it coming if she plays it right, that also stuns, and has a base damage of 650 with an ap ratio of 130%. Plus she has a root that can Morgana bind an entire team so that they have to take her ult unless they can get out of the root in time. My problem with Neeko isn't that she's broken, it's just that they made her a fairly reliable burst mage with heavy cc and an escape. That's like giving Syndra a dash so she could get in range to one-shot people with her ult, or escape

Yeah I can agree with what you mean. It kind of feels like all newer champs or updated champs get extra stuff into their kit. An example I think of right away is zoe and how they give her a really easy setup if you land her sleep. I'm not sure how hard it is to land t he sleep, but once you hit it, you have all the time in the world to do any combo you want. The delay and then the sleep after gives the zoe and any teammate more than enough time to position and combo off the sleep and I think it's kind of dumb. Even if the cc isn't that long, the delay just makes it so easy for anyone to react to it.

RANT Pike, talon, and akali are two other champs that I find stupid, pike being new and akali/talon wit recent rework. I find it dumb that they have so much burst damage, hard cc except for talon, get so much escapes while others don't even have an escape. Pike can go invis, can omni-direction dash that leaves a trail that stuns anyone in it, and he can negate a lot of damage dealt to him with his grey health that only he and tahm kench has while everyone else bleeds dry unless they have built in sustain. Akali having a smoke screen that makes her very hard to hit unless you have aoe because you CANT auto attack her while she is in her smoke and invis, then she has a stun in her ult that is somewhat similar to pike's dash stun, then with no ult she can use a throwing kunar ability similar to cait which when combined with her smoke makes her create a lot of distance from her and the one who was about to take her down. Then you got talon where if you don't hard cc him and burst him down, he can jump away very easily because despite the medium long cooldown on terrain, there is so much terrain to jump to that it doesn't even matter unless you are purposely wasting all the terrain jumping for no reason. It's so hard to catch a talon when he can jump to so many terrain with a no mana cost, short second cooldown parkour ability and if you get to him he also has an invis ult that he can turn around and burst you if you are squishy.

EthreainAmbusherJun 23, 20191 votes

depends on a lot, like the strength of the champion, their health, the mana they'll spend on the cc, and the cooldown.

miightofdemaciaJun 24, 20191 votes

{quoted}

depends on a lot, like the strength of the champion, their health, the mana they'll spend on the cc, and the cooldown.

That's true too. In a few small cases though, i feel some champions with hard cc need nerf on their damage or something because having medium to high damage on hard cc kit is kinda too much imo. Or at least, skill shot no cc abilities should get a buff to make up for lack of hard cc.