Kog drops off late game

Rebonack·Feb 9, 2016·8 votes·786 views

Since Riot removed the total AD ratio on Kog's W and gave it a flat value (break even point was 160 total AD. So a stacked Rageblade + runes) Kog lost his hyper-carry curve. Previously he just kept getting better and better into late game. Now he peaks at the 35-40 minute range and drops off hard the later the game runs.

I was a bit hesitant to make a topic about this for a while since there's little data on Kog due to how few play him, but this has been a consistent pattern in every single patch since the total AD ratio was removed. And so here we are.

As I see it, Riot can do one of two things here. If they want Kog to be a hyper-carry, they need to revert the change they made to Kog's W. Bring back the total AD scaling. Keep the 15 minimum damage that's on the PBE, though, that'll prevent him from being totally worthless at level 1.

However, if Riot doesn't want Kog to be a hyper-carry, then keep the 2% base damage and make the minimum damage scale strongly with points in W to give Kog a much stronger mid game.

Either way, Riot needs to figure out what they want Kog to do. Because right now he's got a shitty early game, a decent (though not amazing) mid/late, and a meh everything else. At no point does the risk in picking Kog really pay off.

36 Comments

ToasteyFeb 9, 20164 votes

"We want this champion to stand still and shoot in one direction and do tonnes of damage!" said the game developer who has been steadily introducing more and more mobility over the past 6 years. "It doesn't matter if literally half of our champion pool has a gap closer of some sort, and everyone can bring Flash!"

RebonackFeb 9, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Toasted Pigeon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qmmqJcAE,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-02-09T17:03:18.064+0000)

"We want this champion to stand still and shoot in one direction and do tonnes of damage!" said the game developer who has been steadily introducing more and more mobility over the past 6 years. "It doesn't matter if literally half of our champion pool has a gap closer of some sort, and everyone can bring Flash!"

Not to mention that Kog's attack range is right in the middle of most big AoE skillshots. Kog's either going to lose a lot of HP or a lot of his damage by dodging Brand pillars of flame.

I think it's a neat weakness. It really pegs Kog as the immobile turret champion. But it is very hard to compensate Kog sufficiently for that weakness in the average game without making him absurdly over-tuned in ideal scenarios.

ToasteyFeb 9, 20161 votes

GOTTA BALANCE TO THE EXTREMES OF THE SPECTRUM, BECAUSE MY NAME IS RIOT GAMES AND I IGNORE HISTORICAL PRECEDENT AND GAME DESIGN SO THAT I CAN CREATE o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o UnIqUe ChAmPiOnS dO nOt StEaL

RebonackFeb 9, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Toasted Pigeon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qmmqJcAE,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2016-02-09T17:21:00.087+0000)

GOTTA BALANCE TO THE EXTREMES OF THE SPECTRUM, BECAUSE MY NAME IS RIOT GAMES AND I IGNORE HISTORICAL PRECEDENT AND GAME DESIGN SO THAT I CAN CREATE o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o UnIqUe ChAmPiOnS dO nOt StEaL

Well, let's ask a slightly different question.

How would you have resolved Kog from Jinx?

ToasteyFeb 9, 20161 votes

Keep the changes they've done to Jinx, ie identify her as a reset-based teamfighting ADC.

Solidify Kog'maw's identity as a relatively immobile (but crucially, not completely immobile) poking ADC by giving his R more damage and better scaling. Tone down E and Q base damages so that AP Kog is abusable (since it was borderline a toxic champ in his previous state; I'll admit to playing a lot of it and feeling dirty). He's differentiated from Corki in this respect because he's immobile and packs some CC instead of having a dash and a Package.

Alternatively, keep Kog'maw the way he is now, but let him walk freely while auto-attacking with his W on, albeit with a self-slow. This would remove the lose/lose situation that currently exists with Kog having to choose between killing himself to pump DPS or kite backwards and lose DPS.

AlsekFeb 9, 20161 votes

Kog was a less safe version of Jinx with much higher damage output. ...honestly that's okay. Having more standard marksman whose main function is just to auto attack and position well with different strengths in who their auto attacks affect /should/ be okay. Of all the classes, I would expect Marksman to be the most similar.

Jinx was also capable of being a lot more agro and chase people down with her huge movement speed buff on kill.

RebonackFeb 9, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Kog was a less safe version of Jinx with much higher damage output. ...honestly that's okay. Having more standard marksman whose main function is just to auto attack and position well with different strengths in who their auto attacks affect /should/ be okay. Of all the classes, I would expect Marksman to be the most similar.

Jinx was also capable of being a lot more agro and chase people down with her huge movement speed buff on kill.

Before the remake, Kog's big thing was poking and kiting with WRSheen.

Honestly, if I had been spearheading his remake I would have given him the new headshot mechanic they ended up giving to Cait. If Kog hits an enemy champ with one of his skills, he gets a single super-long range auto-attack against them. Would probably need a champ-specific cooldown to prevent abuse. I'm still kind of irritated that Riot decided to focus Kog wholly on the least interesting part of his kit.

AlsekFeb 9, 20161 votes

If only.

RebonackFeb 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

If only.

Yeah, that would have been pretty great.

But that train has pretty clearly left the station.

forrestoFeb 9, 20162 votes

or maybe since kog came first, jinx was a more mobile version of kog ;)

RebonackFeb 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

or maybe since kog came first, jinx was a more mobile version of kog ;)

That's more or less how I felt when Jinx was released.

She's Kog with AoE crits, better CC, toggle range, and a passive that gives her movespeed when she kills things instead of when she dies.

Yes, clearly, there are more differences than that. Kog does have some advantages. But it was pretty galling as a Kog player to witness the favoritism.

forrestoFeb 9, 20161 votes

I'd just like to say that as an AP kog player, I quite like the rework. He has a lot more dueling power than he did before thanks to the attack speed buff + nashors + same general AP scaling on his W ;) maybe he could make a good jungler with devourer now. ;) I mean shitty early clears aside, he does have a fairly long range CC with his E and long range damage with ult for ganks :) after that he could just proceed to destroy teamfights by building on-hit effects to add to devourers such as wits end, and nashors. maybe a bork.

RebonackFeb 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I'd just like to say that as an AP kog player, I quite like the rework. He has a lot more dueling power than he did before thanks to the attack speed buff + nashors + same general AP scaling on his W ;) maybe he could make a good jungler with devourer now. ;) I mean shitty early clears aside, he does have a fairly long range CC with his E and long range damage with ult for ganks :) after that he could just proceed to destroy teamfights by building on-hit effects to add to devourers such as wits end, and nashors. maybe a bork.

I've gotten pretty mixed feelings from AP Kog players.

People who liked running AP Marksmen on him (Nashor, ect) like it.

People preferred Ult focused builds don't.

forrestoFeb 10, 20161 votes

I've always been the build a tear then lich bane kinda guy. ;)

AlsekFeb 9, 20161 votes

Ha-ha! Well said.

But she also has a snare which gives a lot more safety than a slow because it can catch people who are using dash gap closers, and her attack range seriod is always available.

Also she's meant to have more AOE.

All I want out of Kog is a no gimmick, single target nuke level sustained damage ADC that can orb walk like everyone else and build all of the new fancy ADC items they just released.

RebonackFeb 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Ha-ha! Well said.

But she also has a snare which gives a lot more safety than a slow because it can catch people who are using dash gap closers, and her attack range seriod is always available.

Also she's meant to have more AOE.

All I want out of Kog is a no gimmick, single target nuke level sustained damage ADC that can orb walk like everyone else and build all of the new fancy ADC items they just released.

As things are going I'm pretty doubtful that'll ever happen for Kog. Riot seems to be pretty set on the double attack speed/half damage thing. Someone suggested the idea of Kog being able to move while attacking under a self-slow, but that seems like it would be really hard to balance.

And that's already sort of Kalista's thing.

BisaknospFeb 10, 20162 votes

or they can change him back to how he was before, less team reliant, more fun and more skilled i mean you just need to press w and stand still wtf?

QuephaFeb 9, 20161 votes

Kog's winrate still spikes heavily in the lategame and he deals more damage with his W until his 4th completed item in most builds (and that's counting a level 18 kog with fully stacked guinsoo's)

With the old bases and ratios, kog wouldn't be dealing much more damage with his W even at a completely full build (3.7% vs. 2%) but is way more threatening in the early game which lets him hit his lategame spikes.

Kog'maw may be underpowered but the W change was overall a buff.

RebonackFeb 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Kog's winrate still spikes heavily in the lategame and he deals more damage with his W until his 4th completed item in most builds (and that's counting a level 18 kog with fully stacked guinsoo's)

It does spike (sort of) and then drops off in the deep late game. His curve is weird because after he finishes Hurricane, Rageblade, and Bork he has largely run out of options to really pump his damage.

With the old bases and ratios, kog wouldn't be dealing much more damage with his W even at a completely full build (3.7% vs. 2%) but is way more threatening in the early game which lets him hit his lategame spikes.

Thirty to sixty damage less on each attack when you're attacking five times a second makes a pretty big difference, though. It also wrecked AD heavy builds that were a really fun alternative to just spamming OnHit effects. Kog got extra %HP damage out of it and made his Ult hit like a howitzer. Going with lower attack speed and more AD also allowed Kog to sort of kite without losing as much damage.

The change to his W totally shoe-horned him into OnHit builds and nothing else.

Kog'maw may be underpowered but the W change was overall a buff.

His win (average) rate dropped slightly after the change. His late game and deep late game win rates tanked. Though given how little he's played the former could easily be variance. The biggest buff Kog has gotten (aside from the hotfix) was the changes to Fervor of Battle. I suspect the base damage on his W will help out quite a bit, but Kog will still be stuck as a champion with an awful early game and a decent (at best) late.

Compare Twitch's power curve to Kog's. Riot really nailed it on the rat.

QuephaFeb 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

His win (average) rate dropped slightly after the change.

That was the same patch where they changed ferocity stacking on minions which kog'maw benefited from more than any other champion in the game. That change and the deathfire nerf also made it into the "thunderlord's or bust" meta which meant early game burst champions, Kog'maw's worst nightmare, were running rampant making for the most toxic meta possible for the little dude. The fact that Kog'maw's winrate only dropped a little bit is testament to the W change actually being really powerful for him.

Even if Kog'maw's winrate is only pretty good in the hyper late game, it's still pretty good and I think 40+ minute games can be considered outliers where no one knows what the hell is going on or why your team can't close out.

RebonackFeb 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

That was the same patch where they changed ferocity stacking on minions which kog'maw benefited from more than any other champion in the game. That also made it into the "thunderlord's or bust" meta which meant early game burst champions, Kog'maw's worst nightmare, were running rampant making for the most toxic meta possible for the little dude. The fact that Kog'maw's winrate only dropped a little bit is testament to the W change actually being really powerful for him.

Be that as it may, it would have still been better if Riot had given Kog 15 minimum damage on his W rather than removing the scaling. That would have given him an okay early game without kicking his late in the teeth.

Even if Kog'maw's winrate is only pretty good in the hyper late game, it's still pretty good and I think 40+ minute games can be considered outliers where no one knows what the hell is going on or why your team can't close out.

Decent, but not amazing. Kog has quite a few problems at the moment, but I suspect a big part of what's holding him back is the fact that other hyper-scaling champions hit their stride a lot earlier than Kog does. Going back to Twitch again as an example, they're both equally bad early game, both meh in the early mid, but Twitch hits Kog's peak about five minutes sooner (Ghostblade + Hurricane vs Rage + Hurricane + Bork) and then just keeps getting stronger from there.

Quinn isn't as strong as Twitch late, but she still beats out Kog while having a much more solid early and mid.

MF doesn't scale as high as Kog at his peak, but she's got good performance through the whole game while providing a MUCH stronger team fight presence when you build a comp around her.

And of course bottom lane is swamped with early/mid game dominate champions who wreck Kog. It's a pretty hostile environment for the battle-shrimp.

QuephaFeb 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I suspect a big part of what's holding him back is the fact that other hyper-scaling champions hit their stride a lot earlier than Kog does.

And reversing the W change would make this even worse because his W damage would be less until much later into the game.

I don't like your suggestion of a minimum damage on W procs because I think minimum damage is just awkward and antithetical to the concept. A "minimum damage" clause at the end of an ability looks like a mostly unimportant footnote to players but actually is the most important line in the whole ability until your opponents start hitting 2k hp.

RebonackFeb 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

And reversing the W change would make this even worse because his W damage would be less until much later into the game.

I don't like your suggestion of a minimum damage on W procs because I think minimum damage is just awkward and antithetical to the concept. A "minimum damage" clause at the end of an ability looks like a mostly unimportant footnote to players but actually is the most important line in the whole ability until your opponents start hitting 2k hp.

Well...

Hate to say this, but go take a look at the patch notes.

Riot just put 15 base damage on Kog's W, meaning that it deals flat damage now to anything under 750 max HP. That's where I would suggest sticking it if Kog got the AD scaling back.

QuephaFeb 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Well...

Hate to say this, but go take a look at the patch notes.

Riot just put 15 base damage on Kog's W, meaning that it deals flat damage now to anything under 750 max HP. That's where I would suggest sticking it if Kog got the AD scaling back.

And I think that's a dumb change and probably pretty dangerous given that Kog'maw's winrate was right at 50% last patch even though people claimed he was UP.

But it's also a better mechanic on flat %hp instead of scaling because when it's scaling players don't realize that their AD isn't actually helping their W until you do a bunch of weird math to hit a moving threshold that would hit 15 magic damage. When it's just a flat 2% all the time that doesn't scale with ability levels or AD then you don't have to worry about if your investments are helping you out or not.

RebonackFeb 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

And I think that's a dumb change and probably pretty dangerous given that Kog'maw's winrate was right at 50% last patch even though people claimed he was UP.

It's a functional change.

And for what it's worth, this topic is less about whether or not Kog is OP and more about whether or not he's actually filling the niche Riot keeps saying he has. Twitch is arguably the stronger late game hyper-scaler.

But it's also a better mechanic on flat %hp instead of scaling because when it's scaling players don't realize that their AD isn't actually helping their W until you do a bunch of weird math to hit a moving threshold that would hit 15 magic damage. When it's just a flat 2% all the time that doesn't scale with ability levels or AD then you don't have to worry about if your investments are helping you out or not.

Hah, I'll give you that.

Then how about this?

'Kog'Maw's basic attacks deal bonus magic damage OnHit equal to ten plus (% per 100 total AD).' Or five. Or fifteen. Or whatever would end up being balanced.

Nice, clean, and simple.

RebonackFeb 9, 20161 votes

Just to reiterate, this topic is less about whether or not Kog is 'balanced' and more about Riot making up their mind about what they want him to actually do.

Sire HippingtonFeb 10, 20161 votes

to be fair, kog always had a lower winrate at 40+ that at around 35min, cause at 6items, the damageoutput of an carry does matter less than the safety. Tris and Cait always had a better endgame, cause their damage with 6items, while less than Kogs, still is more than enough and they are sooo much saver, and his most powerfull tool besides AAs, his ult, prettymuch stops scaleing after lvl 16, which always was an issue if not going ap.

If he should really become a lategame terror, he needs some more health/lvl and some inbuilt on-hit heal or gunblade like vamp on everything, so he can actually afford to stand still and shoot away....just that this would brake him in a juggermaw comp. I'd argue that kog in specific comps, like with an midlane lulu, has not much of an power loss post 40 min, as the comp compensates for his weaknesses so he can fully play to his strengths.

Also, the itembuilts on champion.gg...no wonder he scales that bad into late if that is what people built....

RebonackFeb 10, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Pavoni,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qmmqJcAE,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-02-10T01:52:29.497+0000)

to be fair, kog always had a lower winrate at 40+ that at around 35min, cause at 6items, the damageoutput of an carry does matter less than the safety.

And because Kog went Trinity/Bork before the remake. He never used a balls to the walls hyper-carry build, but rather focused more on mid game power.

's part of the reason I was so surprised that Riot totally wrecked Kog's poke/kite, mid-game power spike focused gameplay.

Tris and Cait always had a better endgame, cause their damage with 6items, while less than Kogs, still is more than enough and they are sooo much saver, and his most powerfull tool besides AAs, his ult, prettymuch stops scaleing after lvl 16, which always was an issue if not going ap.

If he should really become a lategame terror, he needs some more health/lvl and some inbuilt on-hit heal or gunblade like vamp on everything, so he can actually afford to stand still and shoot away....just that this would brake him in a juggermaw comp.

That's one thing that has come up a few times. Push Kog toward the role of a ranged Juggernaut of sorts. Honestly, I still think Kog would be easier to balance around a combination of strong sustain and strong damage than it is to balance him around stupidly massive damage and nothing else. Champions who only offer damage have been historically difficult to balance.

See: Mord.

I'd argue that kog in specific comps, like with an midlane lulu, has not much of an power loss post 40 min, as the comp compensates for his weaknesses so he can fully play to his strengths.

But then you're faced with the question 'would it be a better idea to build a team around Twitch or Miss Fortune?' I would argue that they're better team centerpiece ADCs in basically every possible situation.

That, and I'm not sure how wise it is to pin Kog's viability wholly on being able to snag Lulu in a draft.

Also, the itembuilts on champion.gg...no wonder he scales that bad into late if that is what people built....

Curious how you put him together. I've been building Kog semi-tanky for years now over in Dominion-land to take advantage of his strong base damage and mitigate his shitty mobility. It works pretty well in smaller skirmishes, but I'm not sure how successful it would be in 5v5 team fights. His W would crap out way too fast.

Sire HippingtonFeb 10, 20161 votes

Curious how you put him together

Well, i usually built him rather ap heavy, haveing item 3115 item 3124 item 3091 as core. Especially nashor's seems imprtant fot me to get the cdr(also useing cdr/lvl glyphs) for a better W uptime, and usually sorc boots. The other two items are situational, but some of the more common items for me: item 3102 item 3022 item 3146 item 3285 item 3089 item 3157 item 3135

I pref the ap-ish root as you can get cdr and itemize for magic pen without really loosing out on on-hit power, getting a good poke/burst, and the execute ults come in massive, dealing upt to 1k vs lowhealth targets later on.

Though if been also succesfull with crit-heavy builts: item 3153 item 3085 as core, item 3087 item 3031 item 3508 item 3072 item 3022 item 3139 item 3102 item 3143 as situational pickups Especially ER is quite strong,30%cdr help his W uptime alot, and it prettymuch gives him infinit mana for the ult.

I think Mallet is a very underated item on him, the extra beef helps alot, and the slow on his longrange AAs, often even cs 3 targets with hurricane, comes in masssive.

RebonackFeb 10, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Pavoni,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qmmqJcAE,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2016-02-10T12:12:15.671+0000)

Well, i usually built him rather ap heavy, haveing as core. Especially nashor's seems imprtant fot me to get the cdr(also useing cdr/lvl glyphs) for a better W uptime, and usually sorc boots.

The other two items are situational, but some of the more common items for me:

Holy balls, someone else who actually bothered to run the numbers to see what kind of build nets the most DPS. I was sure such people were a myth.

I pref the ap-ish root as you can get cdr and itemize for magic pen without really loosing out on on-hit power, getting a good poke/burst, and the execute ults come in massive, dealing upt to 1k vs lowhealth targets later on.

Though if been also succesfull with crit-heavy builts: as core, as situational pickups Especially ER is quite strong,30%cdr help his W uptime alot, and it prettymuch gives him infinit mana for the ult.

I fiddled around with some Crit builds when W still had AD scaling. It was especially potent with Pillager since its bleed doesn't care about Kog's reduced auto damage during W. But since the loss of the AD ratio it feels... wasteful, I guess. Any other long range ADC gets so much more milage out of Crit. I know the raw damage output is still high, though.

I think Mallet is a very underated item on him, the extra beef helps alot, and the slow on his longrange AAs, often even cs 3 targets with hurricane, comes in masssive.

Without question. One of Kog's big weaknesses is people just walking (or dashing, or what have you) away from him when he presses W and then returning when he's helpless. Mallet forces a lot of enemies to either buckle down and try to beat Kog in a slug-fest (which they'll likely lose) or get chipped to death as they try to run away.

I play Dominion, mostly, and my core setup is item 3124 item 3047 item 3091 item 3022 with two situational items depending on the who I'm playing against and how the game is going. Kog has very few items that are super attractive on the raw OnHit side of the equation, so I've found that bulking up after finishing Kog's strongest choices allows him to take some hits and keep pumping out plenty of damage.

I don't think TanKoggy would be as effective on Rift, though. His lower damage means his W will crap out in the middle of team fights. AP Marksmen seems the way to go to me if you want to optimize his damage.

Sire HippingtonFeb 10, 20161 votes

As said, i also pref the aoish built over crit, though the crit built has two advantages: It gives aoe cause hurricane(It just doesn't feel right to built it on an ap-built somehow, though the aoe might still be worth it even if the crit is wasted), and it deals physical damage. it also has a better earlygame, as BotrK is a good rush item. But so far, i only used the crit built in aram when we had 4 other magical damage sources.

And for tanky builts in summoners, it works quite well, but it is imprtant to get cdr so your W has not such a big downtime. It is especdially strong if you have a uggernaut or the likes of that in your team. It's hilarious how much effort your opponents throw into killing you while they ignore that Darius going rampage on their team... The Ap heavy comp is more vs squishys that can get bursted/poked, or with a really good peeling frontline, as it is purely damage and leaves you rather vulnerable. But if you are well protected, it is absurd how fast he eats through an entire team.

And yea, for dominon you built seems like a really solid core, i used a similar built in dom(always pick random in dom, so with 130 champs i don't get kog that often^^), item 3124 item 3009 item 3091 item 3146 item 3022

LuggFeb 10, 20161 votes

I have to disagree with that big time. I can 1v1 Mundo, Tahm, or a fed Nasus late game with Kog no problem. He absolutely melts people.

RebonackFeb 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I have to disagree with that big time. I can 1v1 Mundo, Tahm, or a fed Nasus late game with Kog no problem. He absolutely melts people.

In which case you've misunderstood my point a bit.

Built properly, Kog can win a slug-fest with most of the cast 1v1. However, his effectiveness still drops off in the late game due to a combination of his vulnerability and the fact that his W typically craps out in team fights, leaving him vulnerable in the mop-up phase. Before his W was changed, his win rate rose steadily with game duration like the other late-game scaling Marksmen do. Since the W change, he tends to drop off post 40 minutes while others continue to improve.

This topic isn't about whether or not Kog is balanced, but whether or not he's doing a good job of filling the niche that Riot seems to want him in.

LuggFeb 10, 20161 votes

How does his W drop off when it does % health damage and scales up with each rank? That is why he is so great at taking out tanks quickly late game.

RebonackFeb 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

How does his W drop off when it does % health damage and scales up with each rank? That is why he is so great at taking out tanks quickly late game.

I... what?

Kog's W does 2% max HP damage regardless of rank. Against a 4k HP target that's an extra 80 damage OnHit. It scaled with AD at the beginning of the remake and scaled with skill level up to 6% before the remake. It only scales with AP now.

The reason Kog can destroy Tanks is because his Q ravages their defense, allow his team to quickly focus them down. His W contributes to his damage, but its hardly the main source.

LuggFeb 10, 20161 votes