Remember when the RNG of dragons completely ruined the game?

Bladerunner7777·Oct 13, 2016·138 votes·5,655 views

Neither do I.

Stop complaining about something (plants) until we at least get to play with it ourselves in the preseason :/

112 Comments

MrWasjigOct 13, 20168 votes

RNG Dragons were however met with the same trepidation, and for good reason! If everyone just rolled over and said "Yeah fuck it! Just add that shit, no fuss no hassle!"....that would be terrible feedback.

OnlyGragasOnlyGGOct 13, 20168 votes

Probably not all people have realised that the plants will not suddenly pop up but can be seen (30 seconds?) before their actual spawning. With this info, there cannot be any "lucky surprises".

FantasySniperOct 13, 20164 votes

Unless you never had any vision of their spawn-points in the first place. You would never know if they're there or not thanks to the combined elements of RNG and ever-growing mechanics that contribute to vision denial.

LeetriOct 13, 20162 votes

Sounds like people finally have to use their wards, then. I can't even count how many games I've looked through only to see the Marksman has only placed 2 wards the entire 30 minute game, or the jungler has only placed 4.

FantasySniperOct 13, 20162 votes

I have to ward every potential plant spawn point, including the ones in enemy territory, with the very limited amount of wards I currently get?

Are you fucking serious?

Karn BishopOct 14, 20162 votes

The main issue is these become chores for the jungler to clean up, we have enough to do with securing camps, large objectives and ganking and now they want us to garden as well?

ignore them and just gank you say? oops gank goes wrong and that plant you didn't clear got you killed because hey you aren't playing a ranged carry and they are.

LimrickOct 14, 20161 votes

It takes one auto attack to clear one. Ad the only one you should worry about is one near where you want to gank, in which case it isn't even out of your way or anything.

Karn BishopOct 14, 20162 votes

So why even have them at all? its not about only taking one auto, its the fact that it is an annoyance to do which makes for unfun gameplay, disappointing if it gets pushed though.

LimrickOct 14, 20165 votes

You get rewarded for killing a plant, how is that annoying?

Karn BishopOct 14, 20162 votes

rewarded?

Healing fruits: do you need it? if so eat it, don't need it? clear it out anyways.

Vision plant: need it? hit it, don't need it? hit it anyways since you might regret it.

Blast caps: clear it out since there is too much risk of this being used improperly or getting you killed by your upset adc, the best part? it'll just look like your feeding to the system and you'll probably get punished.

There are no choices or strategy involved with the plants it is simply attack and move on so how does this solve the problem of solvable jungle mechanics when each problem presented has already been solved before it even steps onto the rift?

DrinkMoreWhiskeyOct 14, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Karn Bishop,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qcuixdEL,comment-id=00080001,timestamp=2016-10-14T00:21:54.605+0000)

The main issue is these become chores for the jungler to clean up, we have enough to do with securing camps, large objectives and ganking and now they want us to garden as well?

ignore them and just gank you say? oops gank goes wrong and that plant you didn't clear got you killed because hey you aren't playing a ranged carry and they are.

More Whiney top laners don't understand when we have to abandon them for dragon control. Noob jungle? More like you spent the first ten minutes of the game pushing to tower and getting ganked. Now you've wasted my gank window through poor positioning, and now a gank top leads to a lost dragon.

MunchCrunchLunchOct 13, 20166 votes

the problem with the current dragon system is that if your ahead and u get a lucky 3 infernals (in which 3 infernals. happen more than anything in this game. doesn't feel like rng anymore). the other team has very little to do against 24% more damage.

RainbowIceeOct 13, 20162 votes

What?i always get cloud drakes.. Not that im complaining.

ElishevaOct 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

What?i always get cloud drakes.. Not that im complaining.

I would be complaining about that. Flat out useless for a lot of people.

it be lìke thatOct 13, 20161 votes

ive seen 3 infernals more than 3 of any other.

the chance for 2 of the same back to back are suppose to be sub 1% i read. sure af happens a lot.

Sightless66Oct 13, 20165 votes

the chance for 2 of the same back to back are suppose to be sub 1% i read. sure af happens a lot.

That's not accurate. The chance for getting two of the same dragons in a row is 1/4. Anytime you get a dragon, the chance of the same dragon appearing next is 1/4, because it chooses randomly between the 4 dragons (assuming that you haven't already had 3 different dragon types in the game, in which case the repeat chance is 1/3). The chance of getting any specific dragon twice in a row is 1/16, which is a 6.25% chance.

it be lìke thatOct 13, 20162 votes

could be another variable thrown in to try and thin the numbers further but i have no clue. id need to see the coding/math on it.

Sightless66Oct 13, 20167 votes

Riot has said nothing about any kind of variable like that. They've explicitly said that the dragons are random. We haven't really seen any evidence suggesting otherwise either.

The most likely explanation is that it's random, and that you're either having a slight deviation from the norm (which is expected and normal for individuals in a random system), or that you're noticing the outliers more than you are noticing the normal outcomes, and you're overestimating how much they occur as a result (which would also be very normal).

PoskeOct 14, 20161 votes

Doubt thats how it works

I think the chance of getting the same second drake is 1/3

33% for the same drake 66/3 for other drakes

Sightless66Oct 14, 20161 votes

That would be true if the player knew what the other two drakes that could appear in the game were. However, if I have only seen a fire dragon, than all 3 of the others are still technkcally possible. It becomes a 1/3 chance when all 3 dragons have been revealed.

ViiLLAiNOct 13, 20164 votes

no one said it would?

buuuut if u wanna be honest it has ruined some aspects of the game...

for example first team to secure bot lane tower now has dragon control, and if the team with control plays it right they can take every dragon that spwans which gives them a way better advantage on top of w.e one they already had.. makes losing games really hard to even try to come back.

nm1010Oct 13, 201642 votes

{quoted}

no one said it would?

buuuut if u wanna be honest it has ruined some aspects of the game...

for example first team to secure bot lane tower now has dragon control, and if the team with control plays it right they can take every dragon that spwans which gives them a way better advantage on top of w.e one they already had.. makes losing games really hard to even try to come back.

How did the RNG do that? Dragon control has always been gained through early towers. If anything tower first blood made that a bigger issue than the dragons did.

ViiLLAiNOct 13, 20162 votes

{quoted}

How did the RNG do that? Dragon control has always been gained through early towers. If anything tower first blood made that a bigger issue than the dragons did.

hmmm i may have to agree at the tower first blood thing, i guess it more bias since im a adc main and i cant tell u how many games i lost when i get 4 man ganked bot lose tower and dragon while no one helps lol and those always ended in loses

BUT the issue is these dragons give powerful buffs that can easily win games, for ex a team that controls stone dragon can easily win games faster because of how easy it is to do baron and take towers, i think this is a unhealthy game m mechanics in my opinion

OR it can just be a low elo issue of obj control

Meep ManOct 13, 201614 votes

Well, I mean, technically before Dragon just gave a butt ton of gold to the killer's team so it essentially made games end easier before.

PoskeOct 14, 20161 votes

Remember when tower first blood ruined the game? Neither Do I

Bot lane is the weakest so that Lane swaps arent even and so that we can see some 2vs2 action

First tower is a healthy snowball mechanic and I welcome it 100%

Now an unhealthy snowball mechanic would be 10 months ago where 1 teamfight ment 10 towers 2 inhs and a nexus going down in 1 push at 30 minutes (LITERALY SEEN THIS HAPPEN)

Snowball in league of legends is at perfect point nowdays

nm1010Oct 14, 20161 votes

My point was that IF there is any problem it is more likely that it is from the fact you can get first blood, first tower, and first dragon all from one lane. I don't think it is horrible at the moment personally, but I could see some people getting frustrated at bot lane snowball.

SchmidttyGamesOct 13, 20164 votes

I think removing Smite buffs because "low ELO players don't use them properly" is total malarkey. Jungle was my first choice to main, and where I've put most of my studies, and now... Well now it looks like Morgana will have an easier time clearing the jungle with her Range and Spell Vamp than any melee champion lacking life-steal.

I'm worried for the future.

Z StatisticOct 13, 20167 votes

It's not that they don't use them properly, it's that there's very little thought because the puzzle of when or how to use the buffs has been solved.

Basically, that there's no thought process based on the situation at the high level unlike with smite itself. Even if you like the extra gank power of chill, you might need dueling instead or vice-versa, depending on the situation and enemy comp.

Sightless66Oct 13, 20167 votes

Riot isn't removing them because low ELO players don't use them properly. They're removing them because not using them properly is the only reason you ever have to think about them. Once you're good at jungling, you know exactly which jungle buffs you need, because it's an incredibly straightforward system. There are almost no real decisions to make about the camp buffs because it's always so blatantly obvious what the right choice is.

Karn BishopOct 14, 20161 votes

I still dont think the solution to that are plants, why not have certain camps spawn variations like dragon does if they are that set on this issue?

wolfs could have 2 variations + a king wolf spawn each granting unique bonuses, or even variation krugs, this would also eliminate their so called map clutter.

Sightless66Oct 14, 20161 votes

why not have certain camps spawn variations like dragon does if they are that set on this issue?

The first question I have to ask is what exactly makes this a better solution than the plants are? If the goal is just to add a semipredictable random element to encourage variation in jungler play, I'm not seeing what makes this answer a better one. The difference between a plant that spawns in semirandom location and a smitable buff that appears in one of four locations does not seem to be very important to me.

The second question I have is how you'd alter the buff design to compensate for randomness. If the buffs even slightly resemble the current buffs, then how do you plan to handle this randomness at the beginning of the game? If certain buffs continue to be more beneficial for clearing than others, then you risk screwing people heavily early game off of something they can't control or predict in any meaningful way, because it's at the point of the game when their actions are already the most set in stone. How about if an early ganker can't get the buff that empowers their playstyle? How do they respond to just being weaker through uncontrollable randomness? Plants at least avoid that problem by not spawning until a certain point into the game, and not being related to basic clearing at all.

Besides, it's not like just randomly shifting around the current buffs would actually fix anything. I still know which buffs are the good ones at any point of the game and which are bad ones. All you do is randomly change which camp I smite, which doesn't really matter.

this would also eliminate their so called map clutter.

I don't really think so. In order for these to really affect jungler decision making, the junglers have to actually know which variations of the camps are being spawned. That necessitates putting more information regarding those camps into the minimap. The problem Riot cited is that the minimap is already very cluttered with information. If we accept their concern as being true, then adding a much great importance to the minimap by putting a greater emphasis on small camp symbols complicates the problem.

Even if your proposal has benefits, this won't be one of them.

Karn BishopOct 14, 20162 votes

{quoted}

he first question I have to ask is what exactly makes this a better solution than the plants are? If the goal is just to add a semipredictable random element to encourage variation in jungler play, I'm not seeing what makes this answer a better one. The difference between a plant that spawns in semirandom location and a smitable buff that appears in one of four locations does not seem to be very important to me.

The second question I have is how you'd alter the buff design to compensate for randomness. If the buffs even slightly resemble the current buffs, then how do you plan to handle this randomness at the beginning of the game? If certain buffs continue to be more beneficial for clearing than others, then you risk screwing people heavily early game off of something they can't control or predict in any meaningful way, because it's at the point of the game when their actions are already the most set in stone. How about if an early ganker can't get the buff that empowers their playstyle? How do they respond to just being weaker through uncontrollable randomness? Plants at least avoid that problem by not spawning until a certain point into the game, and not being related to basic clearing at all.

Besides, it's not like just randomly shifting around the current buffs would actually fix anything. I still know which buffs are the good ones at any point of the game and which are bad ones. All you do is randomly change which camp I smite, which doesn't really matter.

Honestly? it doesn't and thats the point, the plants have the same issues that you point out for my camp variation system, both are bad ideas that introduce needless RNG with semi random spawning that is not predictable and will be abused by certain champions (I.E all ranged champs) and will harm the jungle and objective control as a whole.

I do thank you for writing up a concise argument for me on why plants are terrible though.

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Sightless66Oct 14, 20162 votes

I did not write an argument that says RNG is terrible. I wrote an argument saying your pwrticular proposed variant is worse. I don't think plants do have the same issues i pointed out. I mainly criticized the idea of rng as applied to the current buffs, because the current buffs are so closely tuned with clearing and ganking, and because they are present early in the game. Plants do not present similar issues because they are completely dissociated from clearing. In addition, i think saying they are completely unpredictable is unjustified given that Meddler has already said that there will be strict rules dictating their spawning. Sounds similar to dota runes to me, and that's a great system. Given how much of an atrocious failure buffs have been this season, i'm looking forward to the changes

I know you don't like rng, but misinterpreting my argument to be about something i didn't say is not a persuasive way to convince me of your point

rememberbigsmokeOct 14, 20164 votes

No, the dragons are bullshit. Whenever one team has a lead and fire dragon decides to pop his head in, that team's chances to win just got increased drastically because of a coin flip.

IpressbuttonOct 14, 20163 votes

Plants haven't even been released and we already have people white knighting riot

KeevalroyOct 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Plants haven't even been released and we already have people white knighting riot

What do you expect? It's preseason time where all of the brown-nosers slither out of the woodwork to protect bad ideas they're incapable of seeing as "bad" because it was Riot's idea. If a community member suggested plants, they'd be laughed at, but since Riot did it, it's gospel.

Mig89Oct 14, 20161 votes

Plants haven't even been released yet and we already have people bashing riot. See how that works?

KeevalroyOct 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Plants haven't even been released yet and we already have people bashing riot. See how that works?

I do since it's a shit idea and they should be aware of that...

Mig89Oct 14, 20161 votes

Most of the "white knight" comments are just "wait and see." I tend to trust riot's decisions as most of them are solid. They've made mistakes before and they've reverted things. If it's being released in preseason, wait and play it before you blindly bash it because you dont even know. The plants could be very small buffs/impact on the game. I am just glad theyre implementing it before the ranked season starts. The only shit idea is coming into the boards without any knowledge of the feature and bashing it because it sounds bad.

KeevalroyOct 14, 20162 votes

I tend to trust riot's decisions as most of them are solid.

Okay, from this alone, I can already tell you haven't been playing for very long and I hesitate to take anything further seriously. The reason you're seeing a lot of people freak out about the plants is because we've seen this before with Dynamic Queue since that was the most recent fuck-up, where they put some unnecessary asinine change for the sake of change in production, we told them: "Don't do this, what the hell is wrong with you?" and we were forced to deal with the broken, unhealthy, or just plain unfun change they made, where it takes them sometimes multiple years to accept that it was a bad idea, where we knew immediately. Let's not let this shit happen again, let's instead make a lot of noise, since that's the only thing that seems to get their attention since (especially this season) they want to live in a wind tunnel of positivity and praise, ignoring all concerns or criticisms since it goes against what they want to do.

And I swear to god if anyone uses the whole "well it's their game, they can do what they want" argument, you're only proving my point. If they want to be player-focused as their manifesto highlights, then developer ignorance and dismissive indignation should be the absolute LAST thing they should demonstrate - especially if it's as constant as it was this season.

So here I am, making a ton of noise, trying to illustrate the stupidity of this decision so that when this blows up in Riot's face and creates unhealthy gameplay, and when it's reverted an entire year later after watching Riot fight tooth and nail to defend it with contradicting arguments, I can at least have the satisfaction of saying they were warned.

Stevev45Oct 14, 20163 votes

I liked the S3 dragon system better. These ones doesn't ruin the game, but gold was a better reward.

MimyOct 13, 20162 votes

"How come we always get the wind dragons and they always get the earth and fire ones?"

ahaha jk jk

DarkRitualOct 13, 20168 votes

I love wind drakes when I play Janna. Gotta go fast.

EgyptianOct 14, 20164 votes

or Quinn

3 wind dragons + baron + elder + ult "brb guys"

MetalGearTeemuOct 13, 201613 votes

because rito only hates rng when its dodge.

Yolo crits decide more games then anything.

flibitydooOct 14, 20162 votes

dodge straight up removed damage. The best you could do to directly counter it was attackspeed, but if it theactual %chance, it actually didn't help at all.

but if someone crits, you can still buy armour to counter it. It's functionally the same as buying [x=your current ad] in items (or [x= 1.5*your current ad] if you have IE).

PoskeOct 14, 20161 votes

Fire > ocean > wind > earth

Earth is the worst one I AM TIRED OF PEOPLE WHO ARE STUPID ENOUGH TO THINK ITS 2ND BEST

MasziiOct 14, 20167 votes

Lel if RNG didnt have 3 earths they might still not close out the TSM game. If you have 2 earths you can do an easy baron even when behind and with no damage.