"Having a high pick rate and a high win rate is a signal of balance issues"

Fisher No Chains·Dec 16, 2016·170 votes·7,259 views

No, i'm not talking about the jungle guy . I'm talking about Caitlyn. Having a 30% pick rate and almost 53% win rate is NOT ok.

I'm tired of losing half my hp because I accidentally stepped on a trap while i'm trying to farm and after she just poked me all game long with her 650 range.

She's safe, she's oppressive, she has a strong early game, a "meh" midgame, and a very strong late game. With a good support she's very hard to punish and even if you try, you'll lose the trade 90% of the times. Oh, and don't forget the 4 men bot tower dive, which means sure death, because you can't run away from a 4-traps wall and you're simply forced to die. I'll start banning her because this is getting annoying.

Are you going to address her, sooner or later?

166 Comments

Jax CramerDec 16, 201635 votes

Yeah she is freelo atm. So are Lee, Janna and Ahri.

Fisher No ChainsDec 16, 201615 votes

Not sure if Janna is free elo, but maybe she's just good in this "everyone on adc" meta. Like, as always, there's not a single season Janna is bad.

And as an Ahri player, I agree she is a bit too strong and needs something nerfed (her Q speed nerfed or removed, something about her safety anyway).

Jax CramerDec 16, 20161 votes

Yes if they removed the unneccessary movement speed bonus (or only made it trigger when she hits a champ with it) she would be fine.

HyperiönDec 16, 20165 votes

It was just an unnecessary buff. I do main Ahri, tbh I think she is in a perfect spot. The meta just suits her playstyle 100%.

Very good in the early game, bad in the late game unless she lands a charm. But since Riot is morphing the game into a 20-30 minute curb stomp. She doesn't fall off. unless they have a lot of CC or a beefy front line. And at the 20 minute mark, no one is that tanky to negate her presence.

BisaknospDec 16, 20165 votes

ahri will always be good in solo q because of her pick potential and people being out of position 24/7

but so are champions like annie, amumu, rengar and several more

Finn Teh HumanDec 16, 20163 votes

I don't main her but use her as a mid. I don't understand why people think she's op lol. I see why they buffed her Q tho, they took the burst to 1 target dmg away by taking away DFG and changing her charm.

HyperiönDec 16, 20165 votes

Exactly my point. I think she is is a perfect spot right now.

SpoofghoulDec 16, 20164 votes

well janna was already strong but the masteries and itemization pushed her over the top

from masteries a lone she can get +18% shield power and additional resistances on shields

then with item changes this goes up even further alongside access to more shields and heals and quite big ones at that

item 3107 item 3190 item 3504 are some of those items you see all the time on her

thats + 38% shielding and healing with an extra 850 shield and 700 heal

She already has some of the best peel available with slows knockups knockbacks and speedups and in addition to that she turns her adc into a fat tank

essentially making you deal with a ranged dps draintank with more effective hp then an actual tank who has exceptional peel to boot

so yea janna is overpowered and i ban her a lot

TryMucinexDec 16, 20166 votes

[deleted]

Glory ln DeathDec 16, 20162 votes

Correct.

ZeranaDec 16, 20162 votes

{quoted}

well janna was already strong but the masteries and itemization pushed her over the top

from masteries a lone she can get +18% shield power and additional resistances on shields

then with item changes this goes up even further alongside access to more shields and heals and quite big ones at that

are some of those items you see all the time on her

thats + 38% shielding and healing with an extra 850 shield and 700 heal

She already has some of the best peel available with slows knockups knockbacks and speedups and in addition to that she turns her adc into a fat tank

essentially making you deal with a ranged dps draintank with more effective hp then an actual tank who has exceptional peel to boot

so yea janna is overpowered and i ban her a lot

I seriously wish they would give shield stats at the end game panel. Not knowing overall shield effectiveness outside of bonus damage is really starting to piss me off.

rtbf225618241Dec 16, 20161 votes

Her E has a 10 second cooldown and no peel without it or her Q. Her ultimate and W are all the same as before. Locket no longer has an Aura.

Death RexDec 16, 20162 votes

Her E is only with no CDR 10 secs, if I go 45% CDR then I have only 7 seconds till its up again. And don't forget that it lasts 5 sec. Then my adc is only 2 secs not shielded (given that he doesn't loose the shield)

Daddy AntsDec 17, 20162 votes

{quoted}

well janna was already strong but the masteries and itemization pushed her over the top

from masteries a lone she can get +18% shield power and additional resistances on shields

then with item changes this goes up even further alongside access to more shields and heals and quite big ones at that

are some of those items you see all the time on her

thats + 38% shielding and healing with an extra 850 shield and 700 heal

She already has some of the best peel available with slows knockups knockbacks and speedups and in addition to that she turns her adc into a fat tank

essentially making you deal with a ranged dps draintank with more effective hp then an actual tank who has exceptional peel to boot

so yea janna is overpowered and i ban her a lot

The heal and shield power passives are unique.

Only the strongest one will take effect.

Risk of FateDec 16, 20161 votes

[deleted]

Surfer AsheDec 16, 201626 votes

Except it's not just low elo where she is really good.

Janna has literally never been a bad support in Diamond

weeaboomerDec 17, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Not sure if Janna is free elo, but maybe she's just good in this "everyone on adc" meta. Like, as always, there's not a single season Janna is bad.

And as an Ahri player, I agree she is a bit too strong and needs something nerfed (her Q speed nerfed or removed, something about her safety anyway).

Janna has had a high pick rate and high win rate for years, so why are you not addressing her here too?

Fisher No ChainsDec 17, 20162 votes

Janna doesn't feel as oppressive as Cait does, that's why almost no one complains about her (it's been like this for a season now). Also, I don't think Janna's problems can be addressed with mere numbers nerfs. Her kit is just too good at preventing you to do anything to her adc; she just needs something like a small VGU.

NineTailedMysticDec 16, 20167 votes

Is it time for the Ahri circlejerk?

Over InnsmouthDec 16, 20166 votes

I'll always ~~circle~~jerk to Ahri.

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

NineTailedMysticDec 16, 20163 votes

You have no idea.

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

macromiteDec 16, 20165 votes

http://66.media.tumblr.com/cda1affe77b3fd175d3d405dd2a11305/tumblr_na6ev7W4Xu1r6wguho1_500.jpg

weeaboomerDec 17, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jax Cramer,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qcfvatEF,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-12-16T12:49:33.377+0000)

Yeah she is freelo atm. So are Lee, Janna and Ahri.

When was janna never freelo?

Maximum MordeDec 16, 201612 votes

Her traps need to be given hp, worth 5 gold, and give stacks.

DJMason88Dec 16, 201641 votes

No, just make it so if minions step on them they activate. Giving them health would make them useless unless they are placed on the border of brushes.

HyperiönDec 16, 201617 votes

That would completely gut them. If they did that, they would move power somewhere else. Rito Logic

They should just be made targetable by turrets. So they can't siege right at your turret and make you useless.

RalanrDec 16, 201668 votes

Or make them last shorter under turrets like Azir's soldiers.

HyperiönDec 16, 201611 votes

Even still, thats 30 seconds to 1 minute standing under your turret because you can't get out without taking half of your HP.

RalanrDec 16, 20166 votes

Maybe increase the duration between getting stuck in traps?

HyperiönDec 16, 201610 votes

That is also a possibility.

Another would be to maybe only be trapped for like .5 seconds instead of like the 1.5 that is it. That way she would only be able to auto attack, and not her entire combo.

junglerboy16Dec 16, 20165 votes

I'd much prefer they take power out of traps (since all they do is give guaranteed AA damage when triggered) and shift a bit of power back into her Q. If they upped the damage on her Q in exchange for a bit of her trap versatility it would balance out while still feeling more fair to play against since you can dodge a Q, but you can't dodge a trap empowered headshot.

DengedenDec 16, 201612 votes

There's always an ADC with a high pickrate and decent winrate. That's a fact, not a balance issue.

I'm tired of losing half my hp because I accidentally stepped on a trap while

You're tired of being punished for your carelessness? That's such a shame.

Her winrate spiked this patch. It's a bit early to cry OP when she was sitting just under 50% for the longest time. Maybe it'll fluctuate back down.

Or maybe the Twitch/Vayne and mid laner nerfs made the mid game too easy for her. Possible, in that case she could use some mana nerfs (that you'll QQ about).

theArtifactsDec 16, 20165 votes

{quoted}

You're tired of being punished for your carelessness? That's such a shame.

THIS.

Tired of losing half your HP in one shot? Take a look at a fully charged Varus Q. A Misfortune Double Up that executed its first target. A mid game Draven AA.

Cait is oppressive when ahead yeah.. but if you avoid traps and dont walk straight at her you're likely to dodge the abilities that give her bonus damage.

GayFluffyUnicornDec 16, 20163 votes

I mean i don't like cait as well. But atleast i have the possibility to actually get to her, even if i have to flash. Then there is vayne: obvious. Even worse: twitch, who pops out of invis with 2,5 AS critting you for 2k dmg in a second. Much counterplay, such balance. And jhin is over the top as well. I thought otherwise but the latest (compensation) buff to his ult was just too much. Getting hit for over 1k dmg in just two shots only because i was 3/4 HP is way too much on squishies. Especially because after getting hit once it is impossible to get away from additional shots, the slow is way too strong.

It Hertz When IPDec 17, 20164 votes

Take that logic out of here, this thread is for the anti-Caitlyn circlejerk.

Snowman ArcDec 17, 20165 votes

All of these have some sort of counterplay, or are situational. Varus's Q is easy dodgeable, and has to be full AD to do all that damage, sacrificing AS, and damage also get reduced by minions. MF is also situational, since you need to fulfill certain conditions.

VenomarDec 16, 20167 votes

Honestly Caitlyn IS balanced. The issue doesn't lie with Caitlyn it lies with all the other ADs being in a worse state becuase riot just nerfed everything every time it was even a semblance of good or meta last season, and now everything is comparatively garbage when you look at Cait and Twitch.

Down vote away, but if riot actually balanced rather than nerfing everything the first time it breathed life we wouldn't be bitching about Caitlyn, the one ADC who hasn't been touched in ages and up until now it was otherwise fine in community eyes.

TwitchInMyPantsDec 16, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Honestly Caitlyn IS balanced. The issue doesn't lie with Caitlyn it lies with all the other ADs being in a worse state becuase riot just nerfed everything every time it was even a semblance of good or meta last season, and now everything is comparatively garbage when you look at Cait and Twitch.

Down vote away, but if riot actually balanced rather than nerfing everything the first time it breathed life we wouldn't be bitching about Caitlyn, the one ADC who hasn't been touched in ages and up until now it was otherwise fine in community eyes.

Um, if one adc is way better than everything else thats the definition of OP. Characters in this game can be OP without being changed for a long time or not having a very intrusive design simply because the game around them changes. Cait got a massive buff last season with her mini-rework as well as Runaans making her passive easier to proc. That strength never left as everyone else got toned down and there's valid reasons why other carries were nerfed. She needs to be balanced around what the adc class is, not making tons champ reworks so that they're at least as powerful as Cait.

Also Cait has been changed all the time. Her release was weak because they were conservative, they buffed her and she became the best adc due to dominant early game from range and good transition. They nerf her and she goes into mid to lower tiers of picks, she swings back and is suddenly dominant. That pattern of balance is very similar to champs like Yasuo or for someone in the reworks category, Ryze might be a better comparison. Her kit is unhealthy just on the basis of "I outrange everyone else with my attacks that don't miss" and they have to balance her around that because its her identity. She isn't this magic adc that's always been in the perfect position of balance and there really isn't anyone who fits that role, Ezreal is probably the closest and he's still been god tier and nerfed himself in the past.

ParcevalDec 17, 20162 votes

One adc isn't way stronger than the rest. Cait is BARELY stronger than (some) other adcs. She's not even the highest winrate or performance in top tier.

Rhai FrostfangDec 16, 20165 votes

To be fair, the playrate of adc's will always be higher than top/mid/jungle due to there being less Adc's overall.

Fisher No ChainsDec 16, 20164 votes

Yes but seeing Caitlyn in 1/3 of games when there are 17 marksmen playable in botlane means that she is a solid pick right now. Guess why.

Rhai FrostfangDec 16, 20165 votes

Never said cait wasn't annoying or strong. just said that ADC's will typically have higher pickrates. There has always been the big 3-4 when it comes to adc's, so not much new there.

God King ZulDec 16, 20165 votes

100% agree. And heaven forbid you face a Cait with crit dmg and chance runes. I remember last season I played Caitlyn in ranked and built a crit dmg and chance runes. Lvl 5, enemy adc came down, hit them with my proc'd headshot from my passive, 25% hp loss, netshot, another 25%, q, minion died making me sick ulted and killed them in less than 5 seconds.

The fact that she can block off an entire lane with those traps making it impossible for you to leave your tower (especially if you are a cait like me who maxes traps first and can do this easily and often) and if you go to clear those traps unless you are Leona or Braum will severely punish you for doing so makes it a little stupidly strong. I'd rather they be like Nid traps and do a little dmg in exchange for making them proc a powerful crit. You can literally get hit with her headshot from her auto passive, step on a trap and get hit with another one immediately after and lose more than 50% of your hp before laning phase is even over with.

And please, spare me that whole "wait until your jungler ganks then noob" bs. Her and Blitz or any other tank supp with a pull means you or your adc/support is going to die if you even step on a trap, get pulled on a trap, etc.

Her passive and its working with the traps is a little too strong. Traps in bushes should last longer than ones sitting in lane or close to your tower.

jinxedchefDec 16, 20164 votes

Honestly I think while Cait is strong the bigger problem is so many more of the ADCs are weak. Corki Draven Kalista Lucian Sivir Varus Tristana All could use buff.

Stand in my XDec 16, 20162 votes

varus and lucian seem pretty strong... at least in bronze where im stuck sadly

10TicklerDec 16, 201612 votes

could use a buff

...

Horrified staring into space as visions of 1000+ damage crits dance before my very eyes.

Spice POWAHDec 16, 201610 votes

1000+ damage crits

Caitlyn Did Vayne I Jhin Just Tryndamere Hear Yasuo CRITS?!?!

10TicklerDec 16, 20163 votes

Cait can crit more reliably, as can Jhin, Vayne doesn't Rely on crits half as much as the Attack speed for proccing Silver bolts. Trynd's kit is outdated and it shows, and Yasuo's been a problem for a long LONG time.

Jhin pays for his crits with pauses in his natural damage pattern, and Caitlyn has to set up for them.

Draven, with a full AD/Crit Build can consistently, every other Axe, Crit you, along with the Q bonus damage, and pop around 1200 a go, come late game.

RavenMagusDec 16, 201610 votes

Vayne doesn't Rely on crits half as much as the Attack speed for proccing Silver bolts

man where have you been the past month?

XeruonDec 16, 20163 votes

Cait is annoying, but I don't think she should be gutted, or even receive huge nerfs.

All I can think of is to tweak her headshot so it's worse early game and scales as the game goes on, making it so that if an enemy steps on a trap, another trap won't trigger on them for a few seconds, or reducing their duration under turret.

Pick one of those, see if it works. If it does, great. If it doesn't, add another nerf.