"Zhonya's was nerfed because it gave too much in terms of both offensive and defensive power"

Fisher No Chains·Jun 24, 2017·101 votes·5,442 views

This is so sad. I'm not here saying "omg AP itemization is weak" because AP have some busted items too (Nomicon), but I think that AD itemization needs to be looked at.

AP defensive options: , simply a defensive option for heavy AP comps and a defensive option for heavy AD comps (that sometimes is just a delayed death). That's it.

Meanwhile AD champions (especially adcs) sacrifice NOTHING for their damage; being a glass cannon is no longer a thing because you can build both offensive and defensive without losing anything. are all great examples of this, especially Phantom Dancer and Scimitar. Let's talk PD: the best Zeal item stats-wise which also gives: ghost, bonus movement speed and 12% damage reduction for TEN SECONDS, refreshed every time you deal damage. Basically if someone wants to kill you in a even scenario you just aa them, watch PD's passive do half the job, deal more damage and "/all nope xd". Fun thing: that damage reduction has no real counterplay, once you've been hit you can only hope that the guy hits someone else so the debuff expires on you. Interactive, fun and healthy.

About Death's Dance, well I think everyone can agree that this item is busted and is breaking the game. It's not only about some ADCs abusing it ( ), but also champs like or being unkillable because they either lifesteal that 30% bleed, or Riven can just press E and negate 30% of the damage you dealt, resulting in an actual 30% damage reduction.

And don't get me started about the PD+DD combo, I've seen Lucian and Draven build those items and go 1v3.

Tl;dr: Zhonya's was nerfed because it was an example of item who had too much offensive AND defensive power, whereas some AD items are even worse nowadays and they're breaking the game.

200 Comments

EedatJun 24, 201738 votes

AP defensive options:

Ummmmm you're forgetting a ton that give HP item 3027 item 3152 item 3151 item 3030 item 3116

item 3040 also has a large shield

yoshi2790Jun 24, 20173 votes

Every zeal item gives movement speed, which is arguably also defensive.

I agree with item 3040 tho

EedatJun 24, 20172 votes

Every zeal item gives movement speed, which is arguably also defensive.

I mean item 3285 item 3100 give move speed I would never consider them "defensive" items either

yoshi2790Jun 24, 20171 votes

No, and I wouldn't call item 3046 or item 3812 defensive either. They're offensive items that have a defensive side, which was my point.

SwiftKitten88Jun 25, 20174 votes

{quoted}

No, and I wouldn't call or defensive either. They're offensive items that have a defensive side, which was my point.

sadly item 3812 is more defensive than it is OFFENSIVE

the 30% damage reduction vs EVERTHING is bullshit...

and STOP trying to tell me it's "damage over time" unless you can prevent the enemy from getting even ONE auto or ability off they are still going to heal enough back to survive

Doctor JarvisJun 24, 201720 votes

He also forgot AD items that give HP to be consistent, but let's list those too item 3022 item 3748 item 3053 item 3078
item 3072 also has a large shield

ninjaroxasJun 25, 20175 votes

Black Cleaver too

ZapMyHeartJun 24, 201738 votes

{quoted}

Ummmmm you're forgetting a ton that give HP

also has a large shield

RoA and Seraph's take time to stack, meaning you won't even get the benefits until mid game, if you are lucky enough to be able to rush it. Meanwhile, AD items have their benefits upon purchase.

The Hex-tech items are super situational.

Only somewhat worth item is Rylai's and even then, it got nerfed quite a bit, becoming more of a utility item now.

EedatJun 24, 201725 votes

item 3040 absolutely.

item 3027 is 93.5% gold efficient when you buy it at 0 stacks and 150.6% gold efficient after its stacked. You are literally waiting 60 seconds for RoA to become gold efficient. The rest is icing on the cake

ZapMyHeartJun 24, 20176 votes

{quoted}

absolutely.

is 93.5% gold efficient when you buy it at 0 stacks and 150.6% gold efficient after its stacked. You are literally waiting 60 seconds for RoA to become gold efficient. The rest is icing on the cake

Great that it's gold efficient on paper. Sighstone is very gold efficient as well when you keep dropping wards, yet only supports build it.

Time is money and even though RoA has better stats at the 10 minute mark, the enemy team can do a lot in that time you are waiting for RoA to completely stack.

Fact is, when you build a RoA, you are playing on the defensive for the 10 minutes because you delayed your other potential items in order to be more safe. Meanwhile, your damage suffers against other burst-happy people on the enemy lane until then.

AP stacking items are trash and if they were as good as you say they were, every mage player would be building it. Except those items are niche only for certain champions and situations.

AD itemization have always been good and when AP items even make so much of a peep of how strong it is, it gets automatically sent to the gutter (e.g. Deathfire, Zhonya's, Rylai's, MPen boots).

JunkοJun 24, 201712 votes

Great that it's gold efficient on paper. Sighstone is very gold efficient as well when you keep dropping wards, yet only supports build it.

So just like only mages would build RoA since it's an AP item? Or is there something I'm missing here in your point?

macromiteJun 25, 20177 votes

I can't read this so I want it explained.

So you just like only mages would build RoA since it's an AP item?

does this mean

So you just like that only mages would build RoA since it's an AP item?

So you only like mages that would build RoA since it's an AP item?

So only mages would build RoA since it's an AP item?

So you dislike only mages building RoA since it's an AP item?

TeCoolMageJun 25, 20174 votes

I don't even get what you're saying, how is this at 4 upvotes...

AlienPrimateJun 24, 20172 votes

There is this thing called hugging your tower until it stacks up. It isn't very hard to play safe.

ZapMyHeartJun 25, 20179 votes

{quoted}

There is this thing called hugging your tower until it stacks up. It isn't very hard to play safe.

Meanwhile, your enemy laner is just farming and getting ahead because you are now hugging your tower.

Great strategy.

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

JoxcabJun 25, 20173 votes

There's this magical fucking thing called farming under turret.

macromiteJun 25, 20176 votes

and now I dived you because you let me farm for free because I was freezing it out of radius like a not stupid laner, and the only reason minions went into tower radius in numbers you could farm was because I wanted to dive you.

ElikainJun 25, 20171 votes

Great that it's gold efficient on paper. Sighstone is very gold efficient as well when you keep dropping wards, yet only supports build it

What kind of a broken argument is this? Do you even know what you're saying?

You don't look at item's gold efficiency alone when considering a purchase. Because by that logic, RoA would also be built on Draven. And Draven won't buy it as the stats it provides don't mean anything to him. So RoA is still gold efficient but it's a waste of gold for a Marksman who doesn't have a single AP scaling and doesn't appreciate any stats it gives them.

ZapMyHeartJun 25, 20171 votes

{quoted}

You don't look at item's gold efficiency alone when considering a purchase.

You clearly didn't read the post I was responding to.

Your post sums up my point.

Just because RoA is "gold-efficient", doesn't mean it's a good item. Because it takes 10 FREAKING MINUTES to stack.

The user I was responding to basically said gold-efficiency = great buy.

Therefore, my example was if it's only just about "gold-efficiency", then any other gold-efficient item would suffice for a build, regardless of any other variables. Hence, my facetious Sightstone example. Because it's technically "gold efficient" by what what that poster said and should therefore mean it's a good choice in a champion's build path.

ElikainJun 26, 20171 votes

The user I was responding to basically said gold-efficiency = great buy.

No, he didn't say that.

He argued that RoA in particular isn't a bad item because after 1 minute of it's purchase, it becomes 100% gold efficient and the rest 9 minutes of "waiting" is you getting BONUS stats for free. Which means that if a champion could benefit from the stats RoA offers, then the item being gold efficient is what makes it a great buy for them, if the situation requires it.

Tear of the Godess is an inefficient purchase (46%) and it takes a while to stack so it should only be bought on champions who have access to low CD skills that can be spammed. Otherwise, when it's fully stacked, it's 186% gold efficient which is great, if you buy it early enough because you need time and effort put into stacking it.

General gold efficiency of an item is all about the ratio of stats/gold spent on buying it. But personal gold efficiency is only related to a specific champion. RoA is an efficient purchase for Anivia for example but an inefficient purchase for Draven because he does not need a single stat RoA gives him.

ZapMyHeartJun 26, 20171 votes

{quoted}

No, he didn't say that.

He argued that RoA in particular isn't a bad item because after 1 minute of it's purchase, it becomes 100% gold efficient and the rest 9 minutes of "waiting" is you getting BONUS stats for free. Which means that if a champion could benefit from the stats RoA offers, then the item being gold efficient is what makes it a great buy for them, if the situation requires it.

Tear of the Godess is an inefficient purchase (46%) and it takes a while to stack so it should only be bought on champions who have access to low CD skills that can be spammed. Otherwise, when it's fully stacked, it's 186% gold efficient which is great, if you buy it early enough because you need time and effort put into stacking it.

General gold efficiency of an item is all about the ratio of stats/gold spent on buying it. But personal gold efficiency is only related to a specific champion. RoA is an efficient purchase for Anivia for example but an inefficient purchase for Draven because he does not need a single stat RoA gives him.

There was the implication. Because their argument basically talked about gold efficiency itself.

If you are going to argue about general or personal gold efficiency, then bring that into your argument first and foremost rather than flippantly decide to categorize your examples down the road.

Just because RoA is gold efficient doesn't arbitrarily make it a good item just because of pure gold efficiency alone. If you look at most tank items, most of them are gold inefficient, yet tanks still purchase them despite that. If RoA is such a great item due to how 'generally gold efficient' it is, then it should get nerfed just because of how 'OP' the price is. Yet, we don't see that because you don't look at its gold/stat ratio alone.

You have to look at the whole picture when determining what the item does, rather than 'just on paper'. Or else balancing champions would be a lot easier if you look at purely numbers.

If you look at the statistics themselves, RoA is crowded out by other AP items in terms of winrate or popularity despite it's 'general gold efficiency'.

Sure, RoA is the perfect buy for specific AP mages based on specific situations who can sit it out (e.g. Anivia because as long as you don't lose the lane, you're fine). However, its still not a great must buy like Morello is, despite better personal gold efficiency that RoA brings because other mages don't have the luxury of sitting out til it stacks completely without losing on other areas of the game.

Meanwhile, if you're talking purely 'general gold efficiency', Sightstone is a great buy on anyone.

ElikainJun 27, 20171 votes

Sure, RoA is the perfect buy for specific AP mages based on specific situations

So you acknowledge my point about certain champions synergizing with specific items but you still go out on a limb to argue further about Morello being a better purchase because of its gold efficiency than RoA?

I never said that it's a must buy BECAUSE burst mages don't really want stacking items. They need raw power now which is why they tend to remain squishy but have a deadly 100-0 combos. Anivia really has slow spells and is mana hungry so RoA is a must buy for her only. Morello isn't needed unless she needs to shut down a healer with Grevious Wounds. But even if she needs Morello's effect, she wouldn't rush it first.

General gold efficiency does not trump personal gold efficiency. Just because an item is generally gold efficient, does not imply that it's a great purchase for every champion because it may not be personally gold efficient for them, due to the lack of stats they require and when. Even if we're talking about a specific category of items (AP) and compare Morello's to RoA, RoA is a scaling item that only scaling champions would want and burst mages could want in a very specific situation. But compared to that Swain, Anivia, Ryze and Lissandra, Syndra may simply opt into a Banshee's or Zhonya's as an instant engage repellents than pursuing survivability through more HP that she has to wait for.

Sightstone is a generally gold efficient item but since the item itself only offers HP and wards (mostly a utility item), only high utility champions can use it to its full potential, without sacrificing their stats to do so. This is generally why only supports and some junglers (Ivern, Lee Sin, Nunu) buy it. But Junglers do have a specific jungle Item that's the equivalent to the utility of a Sightstone (Tracker's Knife) so they can save up an item slot. Supports can do that too, if they opt into "Eye" item line.

ZapMyHeartJun 27, 20171 votes

{quoted}

So you acknowledge my point about certain champions synergizing with specific items but you still go out on a limb to argue further about Morello being a better purchase because of its gold efficiency than RoA?

I never said that it's a must buy BECAUSE burst mages don't really want stacking items. They need raw power now which is why they tend to remain squishy but have a deadly 100-0 combos. Anivia really has slow spells and is mana hungry so RoA is a must buy for her only. Morello isn't needed unless she needs to shut down a healer with Grevious Wounds. But even if she needs Morello's effect, she wouldn't rush it first.

General gold efficiency does not trump personal gold efficiency. Just because an item is generally gold efficient, does not imply that it's a great purchase for every champion because it may not be personally gold efficient for them, due to the lack of stats they require and when. Even if we're talking about a specific category of items (AP) and compare Morello's to RoA, RoA is a scaling item that only scaling champions would want and burst mages could want in a very specific situation. But compared to that Swain, Anivia, Ryze and Lissandra, Syndra may simply opt into a Banshee's or Zhonya's as an instant engage repellents than pursuing survivability through more HP that she has to wait for.

Sightstone is a generally gold efficient item but since the item itself only offers HP and wards (mostly a utility item), only high utility champions can use it to its full potential, without sacrificing their stats to do so. This is generally why only supports and some junglers (Ivern, Lee Sin, Nunu) buy it. But Junglers do have a specific jungle Item that's the equivalent to the utility of a Sightstone (Tracker's Knife) so they can save up an item slot. Supports can do that too, if they opt into "Eye" item line.

No, because you're arguing about an outlier and about why general gold efficiency equates to whether the item is good or not. For your information, it doesn't make the item good in the overall sense. That's the point. You could nitpick all you want about various things that would make it sound better than it actually is. It's like saying 'Oh, you shouldn't step outside because you would get hit by a meteorite'. It's a very small percent. It's simply not realistic. Morello's is better not because of its gold efficiency, but because it gives you immediate stats + it is the better item for pretty much any situation. RoA is for very specific situations, despite its general gold efficiency, making it a niche item. It's really not that hard to understand. RoA still isn't a first pick on many mages. Why is that? Because there are other factors to take into account. Like RoA's 10 minute stacking time. You are already on the defensive when you decide to buy that. Meanwhile, your enemies is gaining better momentum throughout the game.

Actually, general gold efficiency can trump personal gold efficiency. Sightstone. They might not be personally gold efficient for mages, but they are still generally gold efficiency due to the other benefits it give. That is your and the poster I was responding to's argument. Even then, you could argue that SS is personally gold efficient and you should be able to purchase it on any mage then, because the stats on SS (HP +warding for ganks; can build into a pretty decent upgrade) works well with the utility that they offer in their kits. It's simple and cheap + the team needs wards anyways. Therefore, it means that your previous point is contradicted when you are arguing that general gold cannot be trumped by personal gold. Not that it matters because gold efficiency, general or not, isn't the only factor you take into account.

But expanding that point, you further contradicted yourself. RoA could be 'general gold efficient', but not 'personal gold efficient' for a majority of the mage roster, making it a pretty meh item, based on your own argument for burst mages to need raw power and not stacking items.

But again, because you don't get it, you don't look at numbers alone; you look at the entire situation. Whether you are gold efficient or not, if it's not useful to you, taking into account the various factors of the game, it means there's an issue. Which was why when the previous poster mentioned how beneficial RoA is for its HP for defensive purposes, they didn't take into account all the other factors. And with RoA, there's an issue. Not a big one, mind you, but an issue still nonetheless, considering a lot of the AP itemization is so restricted to niche situations.

ElikainJun 27, 20171 votes

You clearly don't understand a thing about gold efficiency. As i've said, general gold efficiency of an item doesn't trump the personal gold efficiency of a champion who's looking for specific stats to buy.

And this is where i'm leaving you since you're just recycling my arguments that i've explained already.

ZapMyHeartJun 28, 20171 votes

{quoted}

You clearly don't understand a thing about gold efficiency. As i've said, general gold efficiency of an item doesn't trump the personal gold efficiency of a champion who's looking for specific stats to buy.

And this is where i'm leaving you since you're just recycling my arguments that i've explained already.

K. I've pointed out the flaws in your arguments and you couldn't even come up with a good justification.

Bye.

TeCoolMageJun 26, 20172 votes

I'm going to have to partially agree with all of you - gold efficiency is an arbitrary stat - unless you actually compare it to something. Saying it's 90% efficient and leaving it at that doesn't actually say much, so things like sightstone gold efficiency is useless since you can't buy wards as a consumable anymore. 100% just happens to be if you bought the smallest components until you got the same stats, and no one would do that in place of a complete item so comparing a complete item's efficiency to 100% is useless.

Gold efficiency DOES matter if you compare it to other similar items, like morello vs RoA, Zhonya's vs banshees. Even then you have to weigh the passives qualitatively.

I kind of hate the 'it takes x for it to become gold efficient' statements in the wiki because they're extremely misleading in that they create a mindset where things that are above 100% efficient are some how magically good when in reality the baseline efficiency for completed early game items is probably 110-130% and late game items would be 90-80% or have passives that are situation dependent like % resistance penetration (worth higher as enemy gets more resistances)

The Yetii RiderJun 24, 20175 votes

{quoted}

RoA and Seraph's take time to stack, meaning you won't even get the benefits until mid game, if you are lucky enough to be able to rush it. Meanwhile, AD items have their benefits upon purchase.

The Hex-tech items are super situational.

Only somewhat worth item is Rylai's and even then, it got nerfed quite a bit, becoming more of a utility item now.

Completely ignores Liandries Torment.

RoA is cost efficient on purchase. It may not give 500 health immediately but you don't need 500 health at 10 minutes.

More importantly, mages have range. Autos have 550-700 range. Champs like Syndra, Veigar and Brand can decimate from much farther away. Their kits grant an inherent safety that marksmen lack.

ZapMyHeartJun 25, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=on2ZwX51,comment-id=000100020001,timestamp=2017-06-24T22:30:51.281+0000)

Completely ignores Liandries Torment.

RoA is cost efficient on purchase. It may not give 500 health immediately but you don't need 500 health at 10 minutes.

More importantly, mages have range. Autos have 550-700 range. Champs like Syndra, Veigar and Brand can decimate from much farther away. Their kits grant an inherent safety that marksmen lack.

Because Liandries is fine? The other items are pretty lackluster, which was the point I was addressing.

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

Marksmen also have ranged attacks. And they usually have some form of mobility on top of that. Also, their abilities are usually pretty long and is on par with a lot of mage's ability range as well.

RiviniJun 25, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=on2ZwX51,comment-id=000100020001,timestamp=2017-06-24T22:30:51.281+0000) More importantly, mages have range. Autos have 550-700 range.

What mage has 700 basic attack range? I believe Anivia is the only one with 600 range, while everyone else is lower, most at 550. Fiddlesticks has 480 and Morgana has 450! So dangerous, my god! Look out for those mage basic attacks!

Champs like Syndra, Veigar and Brand can decimate from much farther away. Their kits grant an inherent safety that marksmen lack.

Are you new to the game? Literally every marks(wo)man has some form of safety, whether it's CC, mobility, or both. Heck, Sivir has an on-demand Banshee's shield along with her MS passive, but everyone gets salty and cries foul about Malzahar, the mage with 0 mobility and 0 disengage, having a similar shield he can't even control.

On top of that, they all have access to several defensive items to fit their needs. Mages don't get that flexibility.

Also can't forget to mention the broken mechanic called lifesteal. While the mage has to rely on a few potions (if any) to stay alive and stick around to farm, the marks(wo)man gets to use their fast, hard-hitting, 0 mana basic attacks to farm, harass, and constantly heal back from any damage dealt to them. Hardly fair. Riot said spell vamp was unhealthy for the game, yet is perfectly fine with item 3812 which also acts as a lifesteal item ( item 3146 is only niche on a couple AP champs). Along with the lack of variety in AP items like AD champs have, it shows their blatant favoritism to AD champs as a whole.

"They can decimate from much farther away."

It's not like there are no marks(wo)men who don't also have long-ranged spells that hit hard (Varus? Jhin? Jinx? etc.), and ranged spells are all that mages have. It's their only purpose, but they are far from unfair. Get one of several MR items and their effectiveness is cut in half.

What's the difference between Veigar and Caitlyn's ults? Both deal massive damage, both are targeted, one can be blocked by an ally but has many times more range, and... that's it. Funny thing is people have whined way more about Veigar's ult than Caitlyn's. Why? AD favoritism. "I was at 500 health and Veigar bursted me, wahhh!" But if Caitlyn ulted for the kill from off-screen, it would be "fair and balanced." Then she goes off to deal 1000+ damage with her basic attacks every half-second to everyone else and mitigating/sustaining against all the damage dealt to her because of amazing AD itemization, if they can even approach her with her 650 range, W spam and E.

This game and its community makes me so sick sometimes.

Fisher No ChainsJun 24, 20175 votes

Still, all of them have lower AP and are extremely situational on a lot of AP mages. RoA: 4/5 mages build it regularly and takes 10 min to stack; Protobelt: I think that it's only core on Vlad and AP Kennen, not worth it imo; Liandry: good item but wasted money if the enemies aren't stacking HP; GLP: they could call it "Aurelion Sol's only item" because he's the only champion that often builds it; Rylai: decent choice for kite mages and it was nerfed because it was as good as old Zhonyas; Archangel: needs a lot of time to stack, gives low stats early game, has a very high cooldown and it's super situational.

All of those items have HP = defense, yes, but they're not overbearing or give stupid amounts of defense for no trade off. All of them have worse stats than AP only items, thing that items like PD or DD don't necessarily lose.

TeCoolMageJun 25, 20172 votes

I have to disagree with 4/5 building RoA, I think it's 2/5 RoA 2/5 morello & 1/5 both. (Not counting manaless, negligible amount building neither)

It's very difficult to justify building both, since their purposes are extremely different (RoA is for burst or battle mages, morello is for DPS or artillery), and unless their mana problems are obscene they usually just build Seraph's + one of the two.

SwiftKitten88Jun 24, 201712 votes

{quoted}

Ummmmm you're forgetting a ton that give HP

also has a large shield

hp means nothing when u have no resistances...

and EVERY ONE of those items is situational item 3027 is complete trash unless your playing a scaling champ that does decent lategame item 3152 is good on a select few champs like Annie Diana Fizz item 3151 requires u to have a form of cc to get full effectiveness item 3030 is like for AurelionSol and i dont know of any other champ that would touch that thing... item 3116 was the ONLY option that was available for ALL mages, but now it gives barely any stats. most mages didn't give a damn about the slow they wanted the HP and AP and THATS what they took away form it... item 3040 only gives you the shield once you reached max stacks.. so again.. its a scaling item...

Laxfan52Jun 24, 20173 votes

When i play taliyah i build glp and some kassadins build it

dunder killJun 24, 201711 votes

is complete trash unless your playing a scaling champ that does decent lategame

This statement shows you have no idea what you're talking about. item 3027 is a great item on practically any mage that has mana. It gives health sustain, mana sustain, and becomes gold efficient after one stack. When its fully stacked its something crazy like 150% gold efficient from stats alone

SwiftKitten88Jun 24, 20172 votes

{quoted}

This statement shows you have no idea what you're talking about. is a great item on practically any mage that has mana. It gives health sustain, mana sustain, and becomes gold efficient after one stack. When its fully stacked its something crazy like 150% gold efficient from stats alone

most games last 15-35 min

if you want to have item 3027 fully stacked by that time you have it COMPLETED as your first or 2nd item...

and how mnay champs want to do that? Chogath Swain Mordekaiser maybe a few others

champs that have powerspikes mid and early game would have to CHOOSE to purposly hut themself during the time where they are the strongest in order to get this item

im not going to build item 3027 on a champ like Nidalee becuase even though i need the hp... i need it EARLY.

but i ALSO need item 1410 completed to even clear with decent mana remaining to gank i need item 3158 and i need item 3102 item 3100 and item 3157 before i can consider getting my hp items...

thats 5 items... by that time the enemy is going to have MR and im either going to need item 3135 or item 3089 as my 6th item...

there is no spot for it. and even if there was.. there would be no good time to build it...

by the time the games reaches 35 min we need to end IMMEDIATELY because Nidalee is about the most worthless champ you can have on your team lategame. im not going to START building a item 3027 at 35 min...

and if im fed... im snowball my lead.

there is ZERO siutation where ANY of these hp items are effective on nidalee

item 3116 was.. becuase not only did it not have some stupid passive that made it only useful for some champs... nidalee could actually USE the passive as she had no form of cc. but even then it mad no difference to her.. only her teammates because if a spear it to even proc it ... you could already pounce to them

but now the hp and AP are too low.

dunder killJun 24, 20178 votes

most games last 15-35 min

No they don't. You are WAAAAAAAAYYYY off on that one bud.

and how mnay champs want to do that? maybe a few others

You're really proving you have no idea what you're talking about. You are suggesting Mordekaiser builds item 3027 when he doesnt even have mana lol

Other champs that build item 3027 frequently:

Kassadin Annie TwistedFate Anivia Cassiopeia Ryze Galio Karthus Malzahar

Hmmmmm seem to be a lot of top tier picks in there. Must be because their core first item "is complete trash". Logic.

The rest of your post is rambling on about Nidalee who a lot of people build item 3027 as a second item anyway. A lot of your points are just straight up wrong because you're operating under the assumption that "most games last 15-30 minutes" which is massively incorrect.

SwiftKitten88Jun 24, 20176 votes

{quoted}

No they don't. You are WAAAAAAAAYYYY off on that one bud. maybe a few others

You're really proving you have no idea what you're talking about. You are suggesting builds when he doesnt even have mana lol

Other champs that build frequently:

Hmmmmm seem to be a lot of top tier picks in there. Must be because their core first item "is complete trash". Logic.

The rest of your post is rambling on about who a lot of people build as a second item anyway. A lot of your points are just straight up wrong because you're operating under the assumption that "most games last 15-30 minutes" which is massively incorrect.

you freaking QUOTED my post which PROVES i said 15-35... then you link me to site that PROVES my own point of that 80% of games last between 15 and 35 min..

i also said its a trash item UNLESS you are a lategame champ

of course u post champs like Ryze Cassiopeia Anivia

i said item 3027 is a NICHE item that is trash unless your one of the champs who can USE IT.

if you going to try to quote me out of context.. and pretend i said something i didnt say.. and twist my meaning. At LEAST put some EFFORT into it... like edit my quite or something to make it at least LOOK like i said something i didn't.

then you might at least convince people who are as dumb as yourself

dunder killJun 24, 20176 votes

then you link me to site that PROVES my own point of that 80% of games last between 15 and 35 min..

LOL literally 0.15% of games end by 15 minutes yet you're still going to try to justify "MOST games last 15-35 minutes.

0.15%

The fact that you think 0.15% is "PROOF" that your claim is correct is so nonsensical and illogical that it blows my mind. Like holy shit you cant be serious.

The CORRECT statement is "most games last 25-45 minutes"

i said is a NICHE item that is trash unless your one of the champs who can USE IT.

Yeah man "any AP champion that uses mana" really is a "niche". So very specific wow.

I'm done with this. You're practically shitposting at this point. Thanks for illustrating even further that you have no idea what you're talking about.

is complete trash

and people wonder why nobody takes the board seriously

MorticianjohnJun 25, 20175 votes

{quoted}

LOL literally 0.15% of games end by 15 minutes yet you're still going to try to justify "MOST games last 15-35 minutes.

0.15%

The fact that you think 0.15% is "PROOF" that your claim is correct is so nonsensical and illogical that it blows my mind. Like holy shit you cant be serious.

The CORRECT statement is "most games last 25-45 minutes"

Yeah man "any AP champion that uses mana" really is a "niche". So very specific wow.

I'm done with this. You're practically shitposting at this point. Thanks for illustrating even further that you have no idea what you're talking about.

and people wonder why nobody takes the board seriously

I think you misunderstand. He is saying the majority of the games end somewhere between the 15 min mark and the 35 minute mark. Which the graph also displays that to be true.

dunder killJun 25, 20171 votes

The graph clear displays most games end between 25-45 minutes. Its pretty obvious. "15-35 minutes" is a straight up lie

Chembaron YamadaJun 25, 20173 votes

It is not a lie. He was giving a time frame from 15 minutes to 35 minutes.

Looking at the graph, 76,6% of all games are ending in this frame. Is that a majority? I think most people will consider it as such.

It is about phrasing and how statistics work. I can make the statement "the majority of games end 10-50 minutes into the game". That is a true statement. However, what you mean is actually the statement "The chance of ending the game is peaking between 25 minutes and 45 minutes".

These are different statements.

NineTailedMysticJun 25, 20173 votes

And most of those are niche items that you can't build on every AP.

OP Garen SupportJun 25, 20172 votes

Really you list HP items as anti AD or AP defense option? Really? Then these counts for "every" AD champion as well : item 3022 item 3748 item 3078 item 3071 item 3072 item 3053 item 3025 . Every item that is used is champion and situation dependent. Its scary how you can make that stupid statement and even scarier that many people upvote you.

JhomasTeffersonJun 24, 20176 votes

New G.A. is a toxic item. I think there should be a armor ad item. I do not think it needs a revive affect.

Also, ap itemization does need more diversity.

vLlZjHuberyJun 24, 20175 votes

But zhonyas could be built on practically every mage. You dont see people like riven buying a phantom dancer or caitlyn buying a DD (although the can, its not optimal)

Fisher No ChainsJun 24, 201715 votes

Ye, that's why Zhonya's was nerfed. Post-nerf Hourglass lost AP, armor and gained a useless 10% CDR (CDR is a kinda common stat nowadays), so if you decide to build it you "waste" a slot that you could use for an heavy AP item resulting in higher damage.

Meanwhile an ADC can build PD, getting defensive power anyway because of the damage reduction and the best stats of all the Zeal items.

And I'm not even counting that ADCs have a personal bitch called support whose job is to keep them alive no matter what. Yea, supports in 2k17 = adcs slaves.

dunder killJun 24, 20176 votes

gained a useless 10% CDR

CDR isnt "useless". Thats just ridiculous. Zhonyas was nerfed but there's no reason to make ridiculous statements like "CDR is useless"

TheSingularityJun 25, 20173 votes

Don't be picky about which part you comment on. Given the abundance of CDR in any build these days, you'll usually hit the cap without an hourglass with relative ease. item 3115 item 3100 item 3152 item 3165 item 3001 item 3102 80% CDR without hourglass. Plenty of options, if you buy 40% worth in here and then hourglass. CDR not used.

Hence useless CDR because it doesn't come into play if you already hit the cap

Tobias BracknerJun 24, 20174 votes

AP casters also universally have more and stronger CC than Marksmen.

Most AP casters also have spells that severely outrange the AA of any character in the game.

FluffySoxOfDoomJun 25, 20178 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tobias Brackner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=on2ZwX51,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2017-06-24T20:41:08.942+0000)

AP casters also universally have more and stronger CC than Marksmen.

Most AP casters also have spells that severely outrange the AA of any character in the game.

Because their range or cc is what saves them from the ranged assassin hitting for 700-800 damage every half a second that's unavoidable lol