Boards›Gameplay

How to Garen

LegenDariusGaren··28 votes·4,109 views

I wrote a 700+ line program and a 300+ page guide that details the best runes, masteries, and offensive/defensive item build on Garen.

I will summarize it here and show images.

First off, 19 armor pen runes are the strongest all game long. This chart looks at a typical adc with 88.4 (averaged over 20 ranged AD champs) armor from runes and 42 magic resistance. http://imgur.com/a/es364?Noredirect

Although the 19 armor pen runes are not shown, you can see that even the 12 armor pen is stronger than the others.

12/18/0 mastery is also the strongest.

Next, putting points in E in early levels is a waste. It does very little damage increase against a Darius with scaling resistances. http://imgur.com/a/S098s?Noredirect

Go for the Q max. You can judge for yourself if long sword is better than cloth armor start.

I spectated several games on twitch.tv and averaged the W passive increase as such: http://imgur.com/fQv9URu?Noredirect

Thus, with cloth 4 start and no additional defensive items, Garen's effective HP looks as this (Note that pHP means effective physical HP and WmHP means effective magic HP with W active, etc) : http://imgur.com/44iiRBL?Noredirect

As you can see, the scaling HP yellows is better than the scaling armor until level 14. The more defensive items purchased pushes this point to around level 16. Thus, I recommend scaling HP yellows.

A look at 2 defensive items on level 18 Garen: http://imgur.com/saLxySN?Noredirect My choice is Deadmans/Randuins (depending on the enemy) + Spirit Visage.

A look at 3 defensive items on level 18 Garen: http://imgur.com/UwRMC73?Noredirect As you can see, the best defensive items involve both resistances and HP.

When I play Garen, I prefer at least 3 damage items. Anything less feels like a waste. http://imgur.com/a/29ziI?noredirect?Noredirect

However, the best 2 damage items are Black Cleaver and Infinity Edge. The 300 HP and 20% CDR from Cleaver is stronger than the double digit overall increase in damage that Ghost blade provides for Garen over 3 seconds.

My build path is usually this: I start long sword and try to buy tiamat asap. If I back and have enough for BF sword, then I will get that first instead, before completing tiamat. Follow that up with boots and complete Infinity edge. If you are ahead, start the components of Black Cleaver. If not, get a spectre's cowl or chain vest/wardens mail and then complete Black Cleaver. Finish your two defensive items/Cleaver and then upgrade your tiamat into Ravenous Hydra. The chart shows that it is the best upfront AOE damage item, next to IE, on Garen.

So where does Garen need a buff? His base HP or his HP/level. His early game is very weak and these changes will help push him in the right direction.

68 Comments

Critmaster Garen11 votes

{quoted} So where does Garen need a buff? His base HP or his HP/level.

been saying this for so long. so many of his defensive items got nerfs over the course of the season, and riot has been cutting health left and right from items and masteries.

personally id like to see the cap on his w passive removed with appropriate adjustments.

0.4 resistances per stack until 10 points 0.3 resistances until 20 points 0.2 resistances until 30 points 0.1 resistances without a cap

this change should make the first couple points of his w passive ramp up faster and slightly improve his early game. it should also improve his lategame. just instead of a health buff, it would be an effective 10 to 15 resistance buff on average, which would also translate into effective health.

he could probably get up to 50 armor/mr in a 40 minute game should he really powerfarm. i just like the idea of letting him hyperscaling into lategame off his resistances like nasus can scale off hs q stacks.

LegenDariusGaren2 votes

If the scaling resistances were to be implemented, then I think this version might be more appropriate. 0.2 resistances per stack until 10 points 0.3 resistances until 20 points 0.4 resistances until 30 points 0.1 resistances without a cap

It makes his early game slightly weaker, but it also makes his late game stronger. And Garen's current level 18 is pretty bad.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

If the scaling resistances were to be implemented, then I think this version might be more appropriate. 0.2 resistances per stack until 10 points 0.3 resistances until 20 points 0.4 resistances until 30 points 0.1 resistances without a cap

It makes his early game slightly weaker, but it also makes his late game stronger. And Garen's current level 18 is pretty bad.

but his early game is really weak right now. it would only be a very slight buff. he would reach 30 stacks like 10 minions sooner than hed now, but scale noticably better into lategame.

turning the scaling upside down kinda feels counterintuitive aswell.

LegenDariusGaren3 votes

I think it is a fair trade off if you want to have Garen infinitely scale. As it currently stands, he gets 0.25 per stack. So it would be a loss of 0.05, which is very very low per stack. At 50 CS, Garen currently gets 12.5 bonus armor/mr. With 0.2 per stack, it would be 10. That is a very fair trade off, imo.

Frius8 votes

i find it offensive they nerfed his hp /lvl at juggernaut rework ,from 96 went down to 84.25 wtf is even 84.25 hp

Sozan55 votes

I didn't really feel like counting that but did you take into account:

  • E criticals (probably not, because IE+PD doesn't have highest damage)
  • E unique interaction with increased critical damage (you can check the exact formula here, but basically IE changes the crit damage from 50% to 100%.

Those two give significant increase in damage. But let's analyse best Garen build ever:

item 3031 item 3031 item 3031 item 3046 item 3009 item 3812

Garen Level 18: AD: 134 + 285 = 419 Crit: 95% (you can supply 5% from runes if you so desire)

E damage (single target): Average - 487 physical dmg/spin (4865 total E) Maximum - 499 physical dmg/spin (4990 total E)

E damage (AoE): Average - 365 physical dmg/spin (3648 total E) Maximum - 374 physical dmg/spin (3742 total E)

Q critical strike (I know Q bonus damage cannot critically strike, but I still like the total damage it deals): 1345 physical damage

Now, this is even without Runes and masteries and you can melt pretty much anyone (while healing for significant amount too).

LegenDariusGaren1 votes

I did account for critical strikes. The damage charts that you see is after resistances. The target has 88.4 armor and 42 mr. If you notice, IE + ER had the highest damage, but it is also very expensive and it does not give penetration. I chose realistic damage option that I actually purchase every game and not a build that works great on URF.

This is an example from a page in my guide: A: BC + GB + IE = 180 AD + 20% Crit + 300 HP What is your total AD?: 324.38 What is your total AP?: 15 Is your target isolated?: y How much armor penetration do you have?: 65.2 How much magic penetration do you have?: 8.4 How much critical strike chance do you have?: 20 Do you have Infinity Edge?: y How many infernal dragons do you have? 0 What level are you? 18 How much armor do they have?: 88.4 How much magic resistances do they have?: 42 Do you have Tiamat?: n

LegenDariusGaren1 votes

A little about myself: I am working on my PhD in Mathematics.

This was the formula I used for Crits:

I made this one up: criticalChance is a number that is inputted by the user. See above example. critDamage = (criticalChance/spin); critDamage = Math.round(critDamage); critChance = Math.round(criticalChance);

When calculating the damage dealt by decisive strike, I asked if you have Infinity Edge, if yes, then use this formula: ((130 + 1.4 * AD) * (100-critChance) + (130 + 3.5 * AD) * critChance)/100. If no, use this: ((130 + 1.4 * AD) * (100-critChance) + (130 + 2.8 * AD) * critChance)/100

If you have Infinity, then judgementDamage = ((30 + 0.375 * AD) *(spin-critDamage) + ((30 + 0.75 * AD)*critDamage)); }else{ judgementDamage = ((30 + 0.375 * AD) *(spin-critDamage) + ((30 + 0.5625 * AD)*critDamage));

-This formula runs a simulation of 100 decisive strikes and it averages out the damage. Although the actual damage is actually not this value, this formula allows us to compare these results mathematically.

Note: Some of the lines of the code were removed above for clarity.

Sozan51 votes

{quoted}

-This formula runs a simulation of 100 decisive strikes and it averages out the damage. Although the actual damage is actually not this value, this formula allows us to compare these results mathematically.

Uh, stupid question but why?

Just count the average damage:

130 + 0,4 AD + AD x (1 + critChance x (1 + critBonus))

(replaced * with x, since the boards seem to fuck that up)

It gives average (of course, the average value will never appear in game, but you know that already) while also being less complicated.

Oh yeah, and some bonus:

Game 1, Game 2, Game 3 (I have significantly more of them, with varying numbers of IEs, but the first two were just newer and the last one had 4 IEs)

All of them are rather old though, because I don't play much Garen.

LegenDariusGaren1 votes

It is the average damage. And when you are working on your PhD in math, this stuff is not complicated at all.

And although the crit builds do have the potential for highest damage, they also feel really weak when you do not actually land a crit on Q or the first few ticks of spin.

Also, Essence Reaver is better than Infinity Edge if you already have one since it gives you CDR. But you are going to get blown up with that expensive build. You need hybid stats on Garen. But as far as damage goes, it feels really great with large amounts of crit.

Sozan51 votes

Okay, for one - the issues with your formula isn't the fact that it's too hard to understand (basically none league related formulas will be - everything in League operates on pretty elementary math). It's the fact that using overly complicated formulas where simple ones serve the exact same role is a mistake (not a major one, but still), and you should know that (as someone working on his PhD in math, which I think is admirable - I failed math on my first semester in college).

Also, I don't mean to be rude, but your formula is also less efficient because it cannot account for other sources of bonus critical damage (runes).

LegenDariusGaren1 votes

That is why I ask the user how much crit chance do you have? I manually answered that question for every build that I tried. Also, when writing the program, I just have to manually check that it is giving me the correct solution. Although it might seem complicated at first, it is actually pretty straightforward when you look at it. As for the use of overly complicated formulas, honestly, it does not matter. You get the same result if the formula is complicated or simple.

LegenDariusGaren1 votes

As to you failing math in college, one of my math professors had a tough time doing basic math. Like he could do all these complex calculations and proofs, but when he had to do something like 6+7 on the board, he would pause, think about it, and still get the wrong answer. My point being is to quote Jhin : In carnage I bloom, like a flower in the dawn. Maybe you have not found the area where you bloom in math.

Sozan51 votes

I was referring to critical damage.

Infinity Edge is not the only source of bonus critical damage in the game. You can get up to 45,51% bonus critical damage from runes - with IE it will add up to 95,51% bonus critical damage. There is no place in your formula that allows for having other bonus critical damage than 0 or 50%.

The formula is not straightforward when it uses conditional branches when they could've been avoided. And yes, using overly complicated formulas is a mistake, even if they give the same result (which is also not true in this case, as yours has less possible inputs, despite being more complicated) simply because there is more room for errors (and also because it's a pain to use).

Oh, and a side note - Garen Q bonus damage doesn't interact with criticals - this includes the 0,4 AD scaling.

And as far as my failing college goes - the reason was much simplier. I just wasn't studying enough (or at all), that's it.

LegenDariusGaren1 votes

Garen's Q does interact with crit. So in the 130+140% AD, the 130 is not in orange/red, but the 140% is orange/red in game. This means that Garen's Q does interact with crit. Jhin's passive is also written this way to help the player understand what can and cannot interact with crit. Darius' W has 140% AD too and it interacts with crit, but it does not have a base AD like Garen's Q.

Sozan51 votes

Why are you arguing without even checking?

I hate spewing misinformation that's why I checked it in game before posting, just to be 100% sure (i was 99% sure beforehand). Q bonus damage does not interact with critical strikes - the only part that will crit is the normal attack portion.

So basically: Q, no crit: 30/55/80/105/130 + 140% AD Q, crit: 30/55/80/105/130 + 240% AD Q, IE crit: 30/55/80/105/130 + 290% AD

Darius bonus damage from W also doesn't crit.

Please, create a custom game and double check. I recommend using no runes (or crit% runes if you have them), no masteries, buy item 1051 and crit with Q on a minion (may take a few attempts). If you don't feel like counting, here's the numbers you could possibly get on Garen level 1, with Rank 1 in Q:

No crit: 111 damage Crit, assuming that the bonus damage interacts with it: 192 damage Crit, assuming that the bonus damage doesn't interact with it: 169 damage

Try and see which one it is.

Renascent1 votes

Where's the Essence Reaver, man. http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2285081347/215452559?tab=builds

Sozan51 votes

Yeah, I guess ER is better.

I wasn't really playing this build much since ER started giving crit. xD

TyrekGoldenspear3 votes

Nice, my only issue with a build like this is that you'll be blown up too fast to reach the backline.

Plus playing him like this would kinda remove a frontline tank from the team, but this seems perfect for when I'm fed.

LegenDariusGaren1 votes

I think Garen should be played as a 2 defensive item bruiser that deals a lot of damage. Since I usually buy 3 offensive items before my defensive items, I will usually one shot everyone, but at the price of getting blown up. However, I can also use that build by going defensive early on and buy the offensive items later on.

Even if I go even in lane, this is my usual build. If I am getting camped, the tiamat rush helps to farm and sustain as I get an HP item plus resistance item before building BF sword.

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

True true. I kinda still want Grasp, but since I'm not building as much tank the usefulness of that ketstonw will dwindle I guess.

I just don't want to give the keystone haters another reason to hate them now that you showed a way to abuse TLD with Garen.

LegenDariusGaren1 votes

Grasp feels really weak on Garen imo. I take it on Darius because it is much easier to proc on him all game long, but it does not feel the same on Garen, especially when you are assassinating carries.

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

Hmmmm. True.

One crazy game I decided to take Bond of Stone for the 4% damage reduct.

I carried and I felt a lot tankier, but I feel that there is a bettrt keystone for him.

LegenDariusGaren1 votes

% Damage reduction is a very powerful stat. You can see how with 2 only defensive items, the W active gives him 4000 effective physical and magic HP for its duration. With no defensive item, it is already 2000+.

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

Hmmmm. I kinda want to stay in the resolve tree for that sweet 15% cdr cooldown on summs.

Plus using TLD feels cheap to me, dunno why.

Plus since you're going to be diving them Legendary Guardian would be useful.

LegenDariusGaren1 votes

I think that Strength of the Ages is the superior keystone in the resolve tree. The HP is really nice. Also, the swiftness mastery is stronger on Garen for a few reasons. First off, you need to be really close to even get that passive off. Second, you can consider going tabi/swiftness instead of mercs because of the tenacity and slow resistance from that mastery. If you go insight for the 15% cdr, then the regen from tiamat covers what you would have gotten if you put a point into perseverance instead. You could also go 0/18/12

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

I'll try it. Thought personally I like BoS more purely because you can only get stacked of SotA from large monsters and cannon minions. Since Riot decreased the frequency of them it will be harder to stack it in lane.

LegenDariusGaren1 votes

They did not decrease the frequency. That change did not go through. However, you should have it stacked by the 20 minute mark? and at that point, the 300 HP is much stronger than the 5% damage reduction.

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

Huh, didn't know that.

I'll try it then. It will force me to get better at CSing anyway lol.

Best part is I get a free heal once its fully stacked from then on.

MunchCrunchLunch4 votes

{quoted}

Nice, my only issue with a build like this is that you'll be blown up too fast to reach the backline.

Plus playing him like this would kinda remove a frontline tank from the team, but this seems perfect for when I'm fed.

he'd blow up just as fast even if he was a full tank. it does not matter

LegenDariusGaren3 votes

That was the motivation behind the programming. Since you are going to get blown up, might as well kill someone before you go. Now what is the most effective way to do it? Well, my post explains that bit.

TyrekGoldenspear4 votes

Well there is the W button.makes him deceptively hard to kill in my experience. Not like any of that matters when CC holds you fast in place for more punishment.

HayRoss2 votes

item 3071 item 3009 item 3742 item 3065 item 3053 item 3142

This build has worked for me all season

LegenDariusGaren1 votes

Sterak's does not feel good on Garen. Whenever I do buy it, I always tell myself that the item was such a waste. There are much better offensive and defensive items than Steraks after the nerfs to that item.

Ghostblade is a great item, but I feel that if Garen can crit, he should be buying an item that lets him do just that.

Swifties though... I hate when I have to purchase that item against some matchups. You are throwing away from resistances from ninja/mercs by purchasing swifties.

HayRoss2 votes

Okay, I'm confused. HOW is Sterak's, an item meant for juggernauts to run into the middle of combat, bad for a juggernaut meant to run into the middle of combat?

But crit items on Garen only really work well if you build other crit items to compliment it. Without other crit items, you're relying WAY too much on RNGesus

And I rather stubbornly stick with boots of swiftness because I know they're the best boots for Garen, but they've just been nerfed to shit so badly that it just feels wrong to buy them

LegenDariusGaren1 votes

Sterak's power is tied into the passive. It does not reliably activate for me when I want it to. Like either I did not need it or if it does activate, I am dead anyways. The item lost out on some HP and so Frozen Mallet is stronger imo. Sterak's was intended for juggernauts, but I hardly see it built now on either Garen or Darius.

And given how his spin ticks work, you are guaranteed to crit twice during your spin. If not, then your Q will crit.

Xeruon2 votes

You guys have too much time on your hands.

LegenDariusGaren1 votes

I did the calculations and program writing about a month ago. I shared it with the people in my in-game clan and someone suggested that I post it for everyone to see it too.

Xeruon1 votes

I'm not ridiculing you for this, I don't have the energy or will to do this thing.

What I find funny is that someone goes into in-depth calculations for a stubby-legged knight's spin damage in a video game.

LegenDariusGaren1 votes

My brother is an engineer and I asked him to run through the numbers. He only played league till like level 12, but he has a general idea of the champions. While we were talking, I mentioned how Garen is really weak right now, almost garbage tier in the early game, and he said this, "Is that why you resorted to coding?" And the short is answer was yes. The long answer was yeeeeeeesssssss.

Luxrath2 votes

But its garen. Y all the maths when all you gotta do is hide in bushes and dispense justice?

LegenDariusGaren1 votes

That is not fun at all. Plus Garen is weak enough early that the enemy can spam their emote as they face check the brush.

Michael7021 votes

I agree with everything you said except Tiamat. These are my Garen builds: Standard: item 3111 item 3071 item 3068 item 3065 item 3742 item 3053 Damage: item 3009 item 3071 item 3031 item 3053 item 3068 item 3065

HayRoss1 votes

Tiamat and the Hydras are awful items on Garen

"but u can use the ravenous hydra active when ur spinning!"

Sure, but you're only able to use the passive on it just once, and even then, there are FAR better items for AD

LegenDariusGaren1 votes

Tiamat is only 1200 gold and you can sit on it all game before selling it, if you so wish. It provides a 1.0 AD ratio burst to help Garen's awful laning phase. You can Q + E + Tiamat for a short trade. As you can see, the damage provided by the active is comparable to Infinity Edge, but it is way cheaper. The regen is also very nice on Garen and it stacks well with his passive.

HayRoss1 votes

{quoted}

Garen's awful laning phase.

Uhhh... Are we even talking about the same champion here? Garen has been a lane bully since release

LegenDariusGaren3 votes

Garen's lane phase is absolute garbage. You can look at the damage chart and see how weak his spin damage is. His pre-rework spin would do what current level 13 spin does at around level 7.
However, with this build, if you get ahead, you stay ahead, until level 18, where Garen falls off.

PB4UAME1 votes

His rework gutted his mobility (he lost tenacity, gets less %ms on Q, and for a low duration, plus he lost base ms) his CC (lost 40% of his only CC's duration) and his early laning, in favor of better scaling into mid game.

HayRoss1 votes

Just because he laning phase was nerfed doesn't mean he suddenly goes from lane bully to weak laning phase

Darkomantis5 votes

What you just said makes no sense. If his lane bully power gets reduced then that means he has a weak laning phase since the champions his once bullied can now bypass him and champions who stood up to him before can now dominate him.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by LegenDariusGaren

Quality of Life Update across the board
Gameplay30 comments
109
votes
Garen is unable to crit immediately after proccing Rapid Fire Cannon
Report a Bug20 comments
66
votes
Change Garen's W stacking on ARAM
Gameplay40 comments
61
votes
Garen Ulting Leblanc
Gameplay50 comments
61
votes
@RiotRepertoir. Major Bug on W stacking on Garen
Report a Bug30 comments
60
votes
Abyssal Scepter does not work on Garen's R
Report a Bug13 comments
53
votes