All Defense options feel like shit when compared to aftershock.

GigglesO·Apr 12, 2018·19 votes·10,061 views

Could we get some defense that isn't primarily loaded into aftershock? I would like to live when taking other "defense" options.

39 Comments

Sire HippingtonApr 12, 201810 votes

Now with Conqueror beeing the agressive rune for extendet fights, i think it's time to shift some more power from damage to sustain on grasp, especially later on in the game. right now it's more an agressive rune than a defensive one.

GigglesOApr 12, 20184 votes

Part of the big issue with grasp is that its not really useable into a ranged matchup. So even if you took it then what? What do you do when you cant use your AA's on a ranged target?

Sire HippingtonApr 12, 20186 votes

That applies to many runes and is the crux of melee vs ranged in general, not just for grasp.

GigglesOApr 13, 20183 votes

I just want them to reduce that gap, it wasn't always this bad in previous seasons because in general it just took longer to die.

I think that the defense tree would be a good place for this to go.

BlitzidiousApr 13, 20181 votes

What if the grasp proc had increased AA range?

GigglesOApr 13, 20183 votes

Champs like Irelia already have 200, what are we going to do with 100 extra range?

This is going to sound really bitter, but at 300 range you are still probably 200 range short of hitting the adc. Its why they are making everything hyper mobile and hyper damage. You have to be to deal with the adc. Which in turn is why adc's "have" to do the damage they deal.

Its fucking circular logic, and its why everyone is complaining, but those complaints are only seeing buffs, riots new stance for some reason is that "nerfs feel bad".

I'm pretty sure thats why there is a thread asking for morello back. He sure loved his nerfs.

ElkingtonApr 14, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sire Hippington,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qI0E4lqM,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-04-12T22:13:03.392+0000)

Now with Conqueror beeing the agressive rune for extendet fights, i think it's time to shift some more power from damage to sustain on grasp, especially later on in the game. right now it's more an agressive rune than a defensive one.

Half the champs that tend/used to take Grasp don't even need the sustain honestly. It's just a lackluster keystone in general.

TegashApr 12, 20185 votes

If you're playing an engage champion with at least one hard cc, then Aftershock is the best bet, because that's playstyle it supports.

Aftershock: hard engage Guardian: passive laning Grasp: solo sustain

GigglesOApr 12, 20188 votes

You don't even really get to lane passively with guardian. It requires an ally, that you literally have to be humping to get use of.

Grasp does shit into a ranged or hyper mobile or instant burst lane, which is most lanes.

We need defense for lane phase.

flibitydooApr 13, 20183 votes

Actually it triggers off being near a teammate but also by casting spells at them. Yeah, even skillshots/target aoes can trigger guardian if you aim your cursor at a teammate.

Right now, one of the biggest users of guardian that all your favourite streaming junglers are playing (for some reason) is nunu! Yeah, all of them run guardian as their primary keystone and the logic is simple; Press W, click on yer adc, and boom, a shield and attackspeed/movespeed steroid. Also guardian gives both you and your partner 20% bonus movespeed on it's own.

ninjaroxasApr 13, 20181 votes

It works on shen's ult which I love

YumaS2AstralApr 13, 20182 votes

{quoted}

If you're playing an engage champion with at least one hard cc, then Aftershock is the best bet, because that's playstyle it supports.

Aftershock: hard engage Guardian: passive laning Grasp: solo sustain

Guardian is only usable in duo lanes, and even then it is garbage compared to Aftershock. Most of time you want to play agressively as a tank support, not to play passively. Aftershock is much better at doing this job.

Grasp is incredibly situtional. As people already said, it is mediocre against ranged matchups. Plus, Grasp is better for extended fights than Aftershock, but most tanks can't really engage into extended fights. But most of time I only pick it into tanks that can't make good use of Aftershock, such as Cho'Gath or Malphite.

I think now that Conqueror exists, Riot could shift some or even all of Grasp's damage into its sustain power, giving it a better niche.

KlydeFrogApr 13, 20181 votes

Not on braum taric

GayFluffyUnicornApr 13, 20181 votes

Grasp is literally so broken how do people not get it lol.

KaìjuApr 13, 20185 votes

As someone who likes Grasp on tanks the most, unless I play Poppy and get Sunfire for the burn to proc Grasp on her free passive, I rarely get more that 20 to 25 stacks in a full game. You would think you can get more off, but that's on a champion that counts as melee but has a ranged passive, and is played into melee vs melee matchups, and is on a champion that doesn't even want it because Aftershock is better. Why not make Grasp give adaptive resistances, say 3 armor or MR every 5 stacks, or maybe 1 armor and MR per stack. Something to make it more worth than Aftershock.

KhristophorosApr 12, 20184 votes

Guardian is pretty good for supports

Grasp is kinda whack imo. It doesn't serve as a defensive option. It's just a trading tool for top laners. Champs without hard CC do not have a defensive keystone they can take. You are right.

GigglesOApr 12, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Guardian is pretty good for supports

If only it was easily justifiable in a solo lane... If I use it and I get conditioning for any sort of late game tank stats I feel like I can't do anything until the 10 minute mark.

Champs without hard CC do not have a defensive keystone they can take.

Its unfortunate really, I feel like its a major downfall of the new runes/masteries. I actually really miss the old runes/masteries.

KhristophorosApr 13, 20186 votes

It's just a matter of adding a 4th Resolve keystone like they did in Precision tbh

GigglesOApr 13, 20182 votes

Yea, but they don't want to give tank stats to champions 24/7. That is why they put the condition on aftershock...

I almost think grasp should be like a flat 20% reduced incoming damage after 4 seconds of combat. Melee champions keep it until out of combat.

KhristophorosApr 13, 20183 votes

There are definitely ways to make defense runes that don't require hard CC and aren't abusable by ranged champs. A lot of ranged champs can activate Aftershock anyway and nobody does that even though the resists are flat. So I think it's pretty safe to add another defensive rune. The fact is most ranged champs need to use an offensive or utility rune to be effective.

GigglesOApr 13, 20181 votes

I mean we could always do some itemization work. Tanks seem to be reasonably beefy, but it seems like everyone else is just suffering.

If tank items make tanks too op we could always just nerf tank damage, and stop hurting everyone because 5 or less champions are too strong.

flibitydooApr 13, 20181 votes

I kind of wish a rune that was like "Stand your ground" while NOT MOVING, gain 5% damage reduction against enemy champions you are facing (90 degree cone). You must simply be on the same spot for at least 1 second to trigger (and obviously there's counterplay in the form of direction your opponent approaches to attack you).

An aggresive fighter/ranged champ ain't gonna abuse this since they want to move (either to kite back or to stick or because they have mobility spells in their kit). A tank though, especially an immobile one like sion is just fine and dandy running this rune.

RalanrApr 13, 20181 votes

Immobile tanks still move especially when engaging. No tank is going to stand still in a teamfight or a 1v1 unless he’s laggjng, CCed, or using an ability that keeps him in place.

MadVikingApr 13, 20182 votes

This why I don't even go for the tank tree as a primary.

I honestly think you're better off going into another tree and selecting resolve as a secondary if your a tank and can't utilize Aftershock.

Second Wind and Bone Plating is all you need from the tank tree if you can't use Aftershock. Chrysalis, and Conditioning are also two viable picks. Also chosing Resolve second gives you the same HP scaling as if you took it as Primary... Unless you were taking Resolve + Inspiration.

Grasp is very situational and works decent in melee match ups but it's harder now because of Conqueror, you really can't go for extended trades with out getting shit on. One of the most redeeming things about Grasp for me anyway, is that it gives me just enough damage to make a clutch flash+auto on someone who is about to bite the dust and they don't expect the grasp to actually finish them off.

EDIT --- Didn't they change Grasp in the PBE and it was actually pretty decent? Or did they scrap the idea....

Titanium125Apr 13, 20182 votes

I mean, I only take aftershock if I'm playing a champion with spammable cc on a basic ability. If i'm Playing maokai, boom aftershock. If I'm playing cho gath jungle, I go phase rush for extra mobility when ganking. If I'm playing malphite top lane, I go grasp because of obvious reasons. (you don't get cc until level 6) After shock is really strong, I understand that. Then again you're talking to someone who takes runes he thinks are fun, not viable. (Again phase rush is silly fun if you play tank junglers like skarner, volibear or cho.)

SweedishGunnerApr 13, 20181 votes

CotC coming back would be interesting if it could be stacked or taked longer to come online after CC'ing someone than how aftershock works. I really liked old Colossus.

ShadowmenderApr 13, 20181 votes

You've got support's defend the team, tank's engage for the team, and ...some funky ass scaling tank-o-meter in Resolve alone. And Fleet Footwork, which is the most passive possible keystone you could pick that gives you free sustain. And you can still pick 2/3 of the defensive tree anyway. (Most Champs don't need all three.) You could pick it in to that hyper carry you hate so much.

Lord of MathApr 13, 20181 votes

Perhaps they can make guardian work without an ally too?

Sun Wu RyuumokuApr 13, 20181 votes

All Defense options feel like shit when compared to aftershock.

[sg-lux-2]

Guardian : strong
bone plating : op
grasp : decent
second wind : strong
conditionning : ok

saltranApr 13, 20181 votes

He's talking about the main runes

kile147Apr 13, 20182 votes

Guardian : strong

bone plating : op

grasp : decent

second wind : strong

conditionning : ok

Guardian only works in duo lanes.

Bone Plating is absolutely OP, but doesn't actually help make tanks significantly more tanky, it just makes everyone tanky.

Grasp is pretty bad. The only times I see it picked are on champions who cannot use Aftershock. It does give ok trading power, but its incredibly difficult to actually stack enough to give significant stats. I like the stacking mechanic, but the reliance of autos on a class of champions who rarely get autos off makes it fairly underwhelming for stacking. It honestly should just have the permanent health increase removed and have more power put into the actual proc.

Second Wind is fine, maybe too strong. Does its job of helping against poke lanes/comps, but does require tank stats to take advantage of it. It might need tuning, but I'd prefer to see bone plating nerfed first, as I think that the combination of those two runes is what is too powerful.

Conditioning is fine.

remakoroApr 13, 20181 votes

Guardian only works in duo lanes.

I sometimes take Guardian on solo lane. It works for speed up when jungler comes for gank. Late into the game it gives you and ally some shield which can make huge difference for my teammates. And i being fatass tank wont die anyway with or without aftershock. Random speedup at the start of the fight can be hilarious as well.

Grasp is... No idea. I never like it. And i still dont like it. For me its useless.

GigglesOApr 13, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I like the stacking mechanic, but the reliance of autos on a class of champions who rarely get autos off makes it fairly underwhelming for stacking.

I don't even think that its that they don't get to use autos often, I think its more the fact that you can't stay in combat for 4 seconds, and then still continue autoing. Most fights are already done, or you are getting kited into non-existence.

Sun Wu RyuumokuApr 13, 20181 votes

Tanks dosn't need to be tankier than they currently are.

Grasp is pretty bad. The only times I see it picked are on champions who cannot use Aftershock. It does give ok trading power, but its incredibly difficult to actually stack enough to give significant stats

Its all but bad, it's a great lane runes. And thats why it was creat. No only for tanks... And even for Tanks aa isn't an issue during laning phase. u can look at winrate , every tanks (minus singed) have an higher winrate on grasp when played on toplane.

It honestly should just have the permanent health increase removed and have more power put into the actual proc.

??? ofc no. Its strong enough.

Guardian only works in duo lanes.

ofc.

DraehlApr 13, 20181 votes

Problem is the new rune system doesn't offer anything significant for sustained defense like stacking armor did with the old rune system. The new runes are much stronger, yes, but they're conditional or temporary which is nice for some champs, but prohibitive for others. Especially if you're a less tanky champ trying to shore up your defenses.

Even though it would be boring, I'd like to see a Keystone that gives some kind of constant defense, but comes with a penalty. -20% damage and healing, for example. Something to really benefit utility/crowd control types that are struggling to wade into fights in this high damage meta.

GayFluffyUnicornApr 13, 20181 votes

I wouldnt call BP op and actually more broken. Simply because it warps the entire lane into who has it and who doesn't and you are basically forced to take it. Such a stupid rune needs to be removed honestly. Grasp is broken and outtrades pretty much everything. If you want to win lane and can't make use of aery take grasp. Second wind idk is okay. Conditiong is actually good and nice but i'd like to actually see some decent lane resistance. I'm sick of having 30 MR and singed walking up once to me and my entire health bar is gone. Same with the magic dmg tanks which are most of them. I know people will say duh you have boneplating and/or second wind for it but nah. Boneplating is just too stupid. Would like to be able to lane mid with GP but mid GP is just dead without MR runes. Lolalytics doesn't even track him anymore as midlaner. The champ and role i used to get to D2 is no longer viable. Sad.

Sun Wu RyuumokuApr 13, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I wouldnt call BP op and actually more broken. Simply because it warps the entire lane into who has it and who doesn't and you are basically forced to take it. Such a stupid rune needs to be removed honestly.

removing it ??? im totaly for. Forcing every toplaner taking it's stupid, without even caring if you play a carry or a tank.

Grasp is broken and outtrades pretty much everything. If you want to win lane and can't make use of aery take grasp.

can agree... but honestly i don't see any grasp users since conqueror (thanks God)... same for Aery since last Gnar nerf.

Conditiong is actually good and nice but i'd like to actually see some decent lane resistance. I'm sick of having 30 MR and singed walking up once to me and my entire health bar is gone. Same with the magic dmg tanks which are most of them.

i would nerf their damages instead create another early runes.