Can we please update the learning experience and stop telling people to build thornmail on Ashe.

Monkey D Luffy··244 votes·8,149 views

Now I'll start off with the basic tutorial. I know it's a** basic **tutorial and it's only meant to be basic, however, most of the players who play this are new, they have no idea how to play and are heavily reliant on information about the game to learn new things, the game has evolved a lot since the tutorials were made, and they're missing a heap of information, I understand they are only meant to be simple and there's no problem with them staying simple, but they need way more information in them, the basic tutorial tells you to buy a thornmail on ashe of all champions, there needs to be more tutorials, there needs to be a guide section in league with multiple tutorials created by whether it be Riot or the community, whether it be for new or old players, the lack of accessible information inside the game is pretty sad.

TL;DR Need more easily accessible information and more in depth tutorials and more tutorials and need guides.

And if you guys at Riot read this, whether it's more tutorials so a basic tutorial for each role/lane, whatever you do, stop telling new players to build thornmail on ashe!

105 Comments

DocShephard46 votes

Experience in Tutorial:

Build Thornmail on Ashe! Good work! Now you're ready to play the game for real!

Experience in PVP:

Stupid f*@&er y u build thronmail on Ashe?! U'R SO BAD! OMFG N00B UNINSTALL AND KILL URSELF!!1!

Monkey D Luffy32 votes

</3 The league community

Tarezi1 votes

Experience in Bots:

Nobody cares what you build in bots.

SH Azykan1 votes

except runeglaive talon....they still flame you for that one lol

Linthe1 votes

{quoted}

Experience in Tutorial:

Build Thornmail on Ashe! Good work! Now you're ready to play the game for real!

Experience in PVP:

Stupid f*@&er y u build thronmail on Ashe?! U'R SO BAD! OMFG N00B UNINSTALL AND KILL URSELF!!1!

I laughed... Kinda sad :(

TurquoiseYoshi22 votes

I started League at about 5.5. I pretty much learned everything early on from LCS and wikis. If either of those didn't exist, I still wouldn't have any idea what meta positions are, or what ganking is, or who many champions are, and I honestly may have quit altogether.

Riot is afraid of letting 2 things happen. 1: They don't want to force a meta on new players. They want players to eventually figure out what to do without Uncle Rito telling them how to behave. 2: They want players to not be idiots. If somebody just started a game and couldn't figure out how to walk, it would be bad. Really bad. So Riot teaches them some basic things.

However, when Riot tries to find balance between these two, they get a sloppy mess that doesn't really help new players to learn the game well, other than the controls, which don't really help much, as Ashe has a very different skillset than nearly anyone else (after the rework). Having her be the example is bad for many reasons, like how her kit is confusing for new players, how her E is useless (in that low of a level), how her Q is weird to use, and how she has a lot more range than nearly anyone else, making other ranged champions feel awkward by comparison. Trust me, I went through this, and I completely know how new players feel. The first match I played with someone other than Ashe was as Jinx, and it felt strange as hell to play as someone with such abysmally low range. That's what I thought. Honestly. Serious face.

Here's my idea for a new tutorial: 1: On Summoner's Rift. Everyone plays there, so the tutorial will too. 2: You play as Olaf. Yes, Olaf. He is the best champion I can think of right now. His Q is a standard skillshot. His W is a general "Buff yoself up" spell. His E is an example of a refund spell, and can also explain true damage. His ult is running at someone really fast, using all of his abilities in succession. He's also melee, not getting players used to the expectation of long ranged autos. Also, if Riot wants to be sneaky, they can hide his passive and make players think that they are just winning fights when they are low through skill. Then they get introduced to it and the players don't know that Riot tricked them into thinking they're good. 3: Start with the player alone. Then, after a minion wave or two, send a bot after them. Let the player have free reign of what to do, but have to bot kinda tail them everywhere without the player knowing. Occasionally make the bot fight the player. Whenever the player clicks on something, make a box pop up with information on the clicked thing. So the player gets free reign of what to do, but also will be taught directly how to do it. After about 20 minutes, send in a full team of bots for each team and actually start the game. Maybe reset all gold to zero at that point and completely restart the game.

The tutorial would otherwise be very similar to the Howling Abyss one or the SR one. Item explanations like Howling Abyss, popups occasionally like SR, you get the deal. It's a revamp of a badly outdated tutorial. Maybe they can implement it in Season 6.

Only Play Darius16 votes

Can we also tell them in tutorial to stay the hell away from anyone playing Yasuo Leblanc Zed at level 10?

KatCraft7 votes

Yasuo is actually not a bad champion for a new player, he's pretty simple and safe to play and doesn't have many bad matchups.

LadyRenly6 votes

I'd far sooner recommend Annie and Garen over Yasuo any day. There is a reason Yasuo is notorious for being a chronic feeder despite being good

KatCraft6 votes

Annie isn't really newbie friendly, playing short range means you need to understand matchups well and know when to initiate or play safe. I'll give you Garen, he's brainless.

Raize2 votes

I'm not sure I understood that right, lol. Annie has a higher Auto Attack range, higher spell cast range, higher burst damage, and is much more mechanically simplified. Now, I enjoy playing Yasuo more, don't get me wrong. But learning would seem to be more easily accomplished with Annie by my side than Yasuo. I don't know, I may have missed the point, I'd enjoy hearing more about this.

Your friendly neighborhood Bronzer, Raize

KatCraft1 votes

Yasuo has tools to make his range irrelevant like his gap closer, passive shield, and wind wall. Blocking skill shots isn't hard to do, just requires normal reflexes. CSing is also extremely easy, easiest of any mid laner.

Annie's strength is entirely in her ult, but if you don't know how to survive with annie before you have it, or know when to use it, you're screwed. Her range is actually a weakness, a lot of midlaners can poke her down and she can't retaliate that well. With Yasuo you can sit back and be safe from most harass, then just choose to all in when you're spam q manages to get 1 knock up.

I've seen new players pick annie mid because they think it's easy, then feed. There is a big reason annie mid is not common.

Raize1 votes

So I honestly wasn't going to respond to this because I'm fine with you thinking a champion is superior, I have the same thought process about Diana. But you just got very rude and in all honesty made yourself out to look like a fool because if you look at the kits both champions have... Annie is not only more user friendly, she was INTENDED that way. Yasuo has a shield? Oh that's fine, Annie has one of the largest auto attack ranges any mid lane mage could have asked for. Yasuo has a dash? Annie has a stun that she can build up within seconds (Please dash in on me, good sir.) Yasuo has a windwall that is the only reason he can be picked into so many mid lane match ups to not make him a situation based pocket pick? You can't get to anyone who's smart enough to just stay back for that time. A good Annie will build up her stun while she waits and terrify you. But this isn't entirely about Annie being better than Yasuo.... It's about her being a better new summoner champ, right? Annie's kit is oversimplified. Her q has one of the longest point and click damaging spell ranges in the game. you can use this to last hit minions for more mana back than you spend to cast it if you kill the unit with a dorans ring. It does just as much damage as Tibbers, and is an easy way to get kills off. It also builds/applies a stun. Her w is a cone of damage that does more than moderate damage. It ALSO builds/applies a stun. Her E is a shield that returns damage on auto attack back to a champion (ouch Yas.) and gives Tibbers a pretty large move speed buff. It also builds up a stun. Her ultimate Tibbers does a ton of area of effect spell damage to anything within a circle, has a radius that damages like sunfire cape does, and will smack any hoe you decide needs an extra bit of loving. (Not even sorry about that.) He also tanks turrets and other objectives, makes a good shield from skill shots, and is generally a huge threat to have on the field. Oh, and look.... It ALSO builds/applies a stun. Now, one point you made just made me laugh... "Annie's strength is entirely in her ult, but if you don't know how to survive with annie before you have it, or know when to use it, you're screwed." Two things you don't seem to realize about this game and/or this champion... The whole point of a kit is so that the ultimate is the most powerful spell they posses (Or they wouldn't call it an ultimate) but to also keep the champions powerful enough to still be able to do many differing things with it on CD. And Annie will do a LOT more damage to you with a level 3 Q cast three times than Tibbers will for his entire duration including his initial burst. That is... If you survive for that long. Tibbers is Annie's most Iconic and more fun spell to cast. But her Q, just as any champions favored spell, is her strongest spell. It's on a much lower CD than Tibbers! is and can output a lot more damage in the space of time. As well, I was having a little laugh at your thought process with the girly... We both shamefully recognize that Annie gets behind a lot, her powerspikes aren't as traditionally present as most champions. But nearly every Annie game we've played collectively.... We've come back from negative to positive and done something effective for the team. Even so (and this point should go up in the second note, but I'm too lazy.) If an Annie is behind versus a Yasuo being behind.... she can still do something! She has the RANGE to do damage to champions who would otherwise tear a Yasuo apart. She has the utility to keep a team locked down for hers.

Tl;Dr- You're crazy, you make little to no sense while still trying to sound intelligently superior to others, and you're just a rude ass motherfucker, bad day or no. So, to you my good sir: thanks for making yourself out to be the ass instead of just explaining your thoughts and leaving it at that.

Your not-currently-so-friendly Bronzer, _Raize. _

KatCraft1 votes

I have a rule, don't argue with mad bronzers, because nobody wins and I just end up with a headache. I'll just try to make this quick and simple:

. auto attack range means nothing in midlane you vegetable. Champions like Ziggs, Azir, Xerath are long range champions because of abilities. Honestly the fact you thought aa range was relevant at all shows your lack of understanding in this lane.

. Annie only has a stun after casting FOUR abilities. this is not something she can do frequently. And while being an immobile low range mage, if you get hit you deserve it. Just let it sink in, she is low range, squishy, and immobile. Other immobile champions simply out class her for range and damage like Viktor or Xerath.

. You are just rambling about what the ult does for a while which isn't really relevant.

. Here you tell me you are laughing while I'm also quietly laughing that a bronze 4 thinks his opinion has value.

. Yeh so Annie is easy because she has a medium range 80 / 115 / 150 / 185 damage spell on her q. This is why I dislike arguing with bronzers, because of logic like this.

. More rambling based on your extremely flawed premise that Annie has range.

@ your tl;dr: I wasn't that rude it's called debating. If my posting style makes you mad then maybe forums aren't for you. You certainly failed to post intelligently, or even bothered to structure your post correctly with paragraphs or make your points more concise.

Only Play Darius21 votes

I'm implying that anyone playing those champs at lvl 10 are likely smurfing and will completely destroy a legitimate new player if they make the slightest mistake.

KatCraft7 votes

oh I see. Fair enough.

Provengreil3 votes

It's not like they're cheap, so you'd pass level 10 before you go the IP also.

encyclopedea2 votes

Or will rage like heck if they screw up and give a kill to someone else lol

disregardable15 votes

Riot answered this not too long ago, they do that to make sure that the minions don't kill the new players. They don't want them to lose.

Otherwise, yes. We need a better tutorial.

Monkey D Luffy52 votes

You can't die in that tutorial, just try getting on 0 HP, you never fall below 1 hp, that is not a reasonable excuse.

Sergeant Stephen6 votes

[{quoted}](name=I Am A Bad Blitz,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=q8ca6VVw,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-09-07T13:27:53.515+0000)

You can't die in that tutorial, just try getting on 0 HP, you never fall below 1 hp, that is not a reasonable excuse.

The reason trundle can't kill you is because one of the Riot programmers hacked thornmail to prevent him from killing you, iirc.

disregardable11 votes

I just tried it, it was so funny. Nothing did more than 4 damage when I was low on health, so I couldn't die. I stood there and tanked like 30 tower shots.

Monkey D Luffy1 votes

Yeah, makes you feel like an alistar with ult on :P

A Miss Fortune7 votes

Thornmail works on Ashe trust me

Only Play Darius3 votes

If I was that xin or rengar I would have quit.

Monkey D Luffy3 votes

With the nerfs it's definitely not the most optimal choice.

DrCyanide7 votes

I think they're worried about it being too much tutorial at once. But in that case, why not structure it more like this?

  1. Basic tutorial. Extremely similar to the current one, but with different item choice and maybe something crazy like leveling up a skill other than volley.
  2. Go play X games/get to a certain level.
  3. Stage 2 tutorial. How to pick your items. People will deviate from the recommended builds, some at very early levels. Teach them what they're doing before they go running full attack speed Karthus or something.
  4. Go play X games/get to a certain level.
  5. Stage 3 tutorial. Understanding Skills and Items. Spell effects vs On Hit effects, how to know what procs what (how many bug reports have been made because Ezreal's Q doesn't proc Spell Effects?), active items, wards, etc. (Note, this was my dump all tutorial bucket, this could be split up more)

The burden of knowledge in League is immense, and while it's a bad idea to try and dump it on new players all at once, there's no reason you can't lighten the load. I feel like the game requires you to look outside of it and Riot's websites to have any idea how to play it, which is a very sad place to be.

Uiraya7 votes

Right now the best possible new user experience upgrade would be a big red warning light saying DO NOT PLAY THIS GAME

To make this job of a game accessible to new players at this point will require SIGNIFICANT overhauls to nearly all systems, and most of these necessary changes will piss off older players who have already slogged through it.

  1. Make all current 450 champs unlock automatically and move everything else down a tier. New champs come out at 6300 for a week and are then reduced to 4800. This reduces the total ip cost of all champions by less than you'd think- from 486900 to 310200.

"But this is how Riot gets paid"

Riot gets paid when people WANT to give them money. When people feel that they NEED to give them money, they do something else. Like play a game where unlocking even a single character is not a full time job.

  1. Runes require a drastic overhaul. Rune pages start at 5, and rune prices are slashed by 90%. Riot is perfectly capable of making money off skins and not off of required game elements.

  2. Smurfs need to be stopped. There are a number of reasons why people smurf, and not one of them is worth the disgusting experience of stomping a lane opponent and then game. blah de blah de blah this is still a problem but the flood of fiscally irresponsible 14 year olds must flow.

For a start. Not everybody wants to climb the mountain just because it's there. And this is not the only mountain anymore.

Silents42912 votes

Holy shit I hope they don't put you in charge.

Uiraya2 votes

So I assume your plan is to hope that there's still a huge untapped market for players who like to be abused at every turn by both the content provider AND the game's established players, who just aren't playing this game yet?

You get new people or you die. Those are your options. And every release makes this game more and more daunting to new players, making them less and less likely to actually dive in. Meanwhile, Riot's bullshit in other areas continues to irritate their established players. When the people going out start to outpace the people coming in, that's when people start losing jobs. But by all means, go ahead and tell me more about how reducing ip costs will ruin the game~

Yosuke Apperu6 votes

Not everyone in highschool has a credit card..

Uiraya1 votes

Why not? It's prime time to go get one. Learn 'em some responsibility while they're at it.

Erronius8 votes

You literally arent legally able to even apply for a credit card until you're 18 years old, and you cant qualify for one without a steady income. Most high school students graduate around 17 or 18 years old... So yeah, you're going to get some downvotes -cause what you just said is downright dumb as rocks.

Silents4298 votes

When the hell did I bring up IP costs? You were ranting on about a lot more then that, Having a credit card requirement? Seriously?

Or having the audacity to decide on where Riots income lies, and if they would need the extra.

You want to know what's daunting for a new player? A free to play game requiring a credit card, that alone would turn away majority of anyone, yet that isn't the case currently, because League of Legends is still gaining popularity with more and more new players each month.

Raize4 votes

{quoted}

Holy shit I hope they don't put you in charge.

I completely agree with everything the person above has said. You're acting like you have the answer to every problem. The issue there (heh another one whaddia know?) is that if you change one path you end up with different results. And weighing the results and issues of that path can be rather unsuccessful: i.e. Butterfly effects.

As to your three main points. I only agree with one. firstly: Let's take me for example. I've been playing the game for just over five months at best. I have three and a half decent rune pages and just about half of the champions unlocked. The ip that you earn in game won't change anything. They have that system down and suggesting we lower it only really makes you out to be a selfish bastard.

Moving on... Second point: The one I partially agree on. I feel like runes don't give ENOUGH of an effect to take so long to acquire. But y'know.... It's not my game! And I'm just happy enough that the wonderful people at Riot are kind enough to give me not only a fun game to play; but a way to personalize every champion in minor ways so if it's... say a mirror Ziggs lane. I may have more mr and mp than that ziggs who went straight ap runes. It gives little twists and turns that can subtly change the outcome of that match.

Third point: Credit cards on a free to play game. I do believe Silents429 made a very similar and more well thought out point about this than I will. But you realize that the majority of the people that play this game are still in high school. They normally don't own their own credit cards... And the ones who did wouldn't want to put that in for a free to play game. It makes no sense and I wouldn't have joined this game at that point.

Now don't get me wrong. I dislike the smurfs that just go into game to stomp on the new plays just as much as the majority of you. You want a solution that you can implement yourself? Make your own damn smurf like I did, befriend those new players... And teach them not only how to be a better league player (Showing them meta picks, itemized builds, little tricks like how to cs, importance of vision and lane presence, ect.) and that one of the key points to getting to higher elos in this game is to make sure you have a decent attitude. That might clean up the community some as well because we get less aggressively abusive players (that I won't lie, just from your responses I'd label you as.)

And as for how League makes it's money. This game is free to play for a reason. Because they make money off of people enjoying their game. I enjoy the system that they have set up because instead of paying to see if I like a game..... I can now pay when I like a game. If I wanna go see the lcs; I can buy a ticket. If I love Diana; I can buy both the DV and LG skins. I might also remind you (Because it seems like you don't understand their payment methods) they don't get paid from ip. So people DON'T have to pay to get champions, runes, rune pages, or even maps to play on. Now some people MAY buy champions, skins, Ward skins, runes, and summoner icons (Which you can still get a wide selection for free during events like URF and bilgewater.)

And I'm terribly sorry if this post comes across as redundant or repetitive. I've just found when dealing with clueless people it's best to make sure the point is driven home.

Now if you don't like this game and what Riot is doing with it go find something else to do besides trying to bog down our enjoyment. Otherwise, stop being so negative about the people who gave you this game to enjoy. You're not on their design team for a reason: you're not worth it. Neither am I. So leave it to the ones who studied for this, went to school for it, and are paid to do it. They've earned gratitude for what they've done; not the negative approach most people seem to view the world with.

Your friendly neighborhood Bronzer, _Raize. _

3TWarrior2 votes

well, i've looked through your post, but something that catches my eye the most is the "half the champions" remark

sure, if you play consistently, you can and will unlock many of the champions, but it will vary

I have played for 3 years and I have only touched 50 champions, starting from lowest value to highest and I am still in the 3000 champs range

in order to gain half the champion pool in 5 months, you would need to play 10 - 20 matches per day and that can range anywhere from a 20 minute match to an hour and a half, if you average that, lets say it's 45 minutes. 10 matches for 45 minutes is almost 8 hours of gameplay per day and as someone told me while playing a first person shooter, that amount of gameplay borders heavily on obsession and if you work a 9 to 5 job, you will normally only get about 4 hours maximum minus whatever responsibilities you have present

to counteract that though, you then have the right to purchase your champions with or without credit cards as luxury purchases, but basing that entirely on free to play, you will more than likely not achieve anywhere near your success level

Raize1 votes

I would normally agree with that, especially because people have varying amounts of time they can or are willing to devote to this game, I'll openly admit that I play this game too much (around 5.5 hours a day) because I don't work all day, and most of my friends play this game, so it's an easy way to relax, spend time with the girl/friends without having to pay for a big night out. But at the same time; my objection is this.... You simply overlooked the party ip bonus weekends. Which most people don't take advantage of. But if you devote x hours of your weekend to that, you get x amount of ip. Playing with a full party gets you an even more outrages bonus than just one. And to top it off, something my friends and I frequently do is buy a three day ip bonus and grind the ip. So without the ip bonus with about two friends you can get enough ip for two 4800-6300 champs depending on the variables. With the ip bonus in use of that you can get roughly 5-6 6300 ip champions. It's all about dedicating the time correctly, as opposed to playing four games a day, narrow that down to one for the first win and just take the three a day into the next party ip bonus weekend,. you'll see a significant increase. (also to be fair I bought Elise, Liss, and Talon from spare rp my brother gifted me for my birthday.)

Not to take away from the fact that if there were anything to do in this town or anywhere outside of the five hour drive to the other side of the pass I'd be on significantly less. As I already admitted: I got too much time on my hands. :P Your friendly neighborhood Bronzer, Raize.

The Taco Kat2 votes

Why in God's name would you decide credit card numbers?

Damorion2155 votes

Why in God's name would you even WANT or NEED a credit card?! A lot of adults out there already aren't responsible enough to have one, let alone little Timmy, who doesn't even know what 'teamwork' means, who's starting out on a team-oriented game! The idea of credit cards and "you can have XXX money so long as you pay it back" is too tempting for many people and is completely unnecessary. Just stick with your debit card.

Biff Manly5 votes

"Build AP to increase your ability damage!"

Quinn item 3115 Ret-2-go

ilt5 votes

Ashe +item 3075 =freelo

IcyPepper4 votes

Wait, you mean thornmail isn't Ashe's core item?

My life is a lie ;~;

HayRoss2 votes

What? The recommended items are fine. Because everyone knows that item 3065 is absolutely ESSENTIAL on Gangplank.

(I kid you not, that is one of his essential items)

Ralanr2 votes

I don't even know what you're supposed to build on Gangplank. Is he AD or more AP? Seeing trinity force built on him only further confuses me because it's everything!

xReadyPlayerOnex1 votes

We need a school. The difference between normal mode players, bronzes and silver/gold and above is so hugely different that it's almost impossible to play with them.

Mobafire.com only does so much. When people are constantly out of position, tunnel their lane and have under HALF of the cs they should, there needs to be a hugely different way of teaching the game.

At least explain what the damn meta is.

Sona Ping4 votes

Mobafire and company cause as much trouble as they fix?

"At least explain what the damn meta is." It's what is popular. Literally.

N30NP4NDA1 votes

Meta is actually whats good...

Sona Ping3 votes

Actually... no. There is a reason I wrote "Literally"; go look it up.

junglerboy163 votes

Yes and no.

Meta (in this case more specifically the "Metagame") is what is the popular method of maximizing your chance of obtaining the most favorable outcome in the game. Sometimes, the meta isn't the most superior strategy for winning, at which point the meta then either changes and adapts to a new play style or stays the same while a select few outliers exploit their own unique non-meta method of maximizing their success.

Meta is what is the most popular, and while it is more often than not true that the meta is the best method to win with, it is not universally the case.

More from Gameplay

More by Monkey D Luffy