Question about a few champs and there kits.

Ash Lockheart·Mar 2, 2017·1 votes·807 views

Hey Quick question about a few champs. Rengar got a rework because of how his kit was, and how it was unhealthy for him to dive in take out someone and get out by running way right? Isn't zeds kit design close to the same thing? Dive in take this champ out and get out? Talon I think is similar as well. Goes invis and then gets out. What is the difference and why was only Rengar more unhealthy with his kit than the other champs with similar kits? I ask this question only because if you take the items that the old Rengar used before the rework and put them on the other champs then the damage looks very close to the same. If I am not correct on the damage then please link some numbers because when playing bot games numbers look very close to the same as the old Rengar.

11 Comments

Fondling GemsMar 2, 20172 votes

The difference was that Rengar didn't leave the player time to react, and there wasn't much you could do against him. Being invisible also meant that unless you had pink wards out you had no way to know if he was right next to you.

Zed takes 3 seconds after ulting for his combo to finish. Add in the half a second of the animation as well as the fact that he has to run up to do it and it leaves his enemies with a lot of ways to react and play around him. He also isn't great at sustained fights.

Talon bursts faster than Zed and is harder to see coming but his burst isn't quite as hard and he requires his ult to kill, meaning that he can't use it to escape.

Old Rengar burst far faster than either of them (Under half a second burst time) was all point and click (Ult Q>Q), had pretty good sustained fighting, and was incredibly snowbally due to his old passive.

It rewarded him for killing the weakest enemy over and over without punishing him for doing that.

Hope that helps, feel free to ask about anything you feel I didn't cover well.

B00B00Mar 2, 20171 votes

Talon bursts faster than Zed and is harder to see coming but his burst isn't quite as hard and he requires his ult to kill, meaning that he can't use it to escape.

i would like to point out it is not just Talon's ultimate needed it is 3 hit combo to proc his passive so Q>R>R>AA to proc or W>Q>W return > AA etc or flash W>Q>AA etc etc.

so its 3 abiities to hit to build his passive marks and one AA to proc his bleed damage on his passive.

late game sure a Q and ult MIGHT work on an AD/APC but if they have zonya's, edge or a support has locket and/or redemption then suddenly they will not die if the talon's attempt is exposed before he is in and damaging.
his E also has 3-5min CD's on each wall jumped.

just thought i would provide some more information, not discrediting you at all but this may help the OP

Zed also needs to hit multiple times after his Ultimate to do his burst correctly so if you stun/jump/push back chances are he has already used his W and you get out alive, even as an ADC.

Ash LockheartMar 2, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fondling Gems,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=q4hEUOmP,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-03-02T07:36:53.629+0000)

The difference was that Rengar didn't leave the player time to react, and there wasn't much you could do against him. Being invisible also meant that unless you had pink wards out you had no way to know if he was right next to you.

Zed takes 3 seconds after ulting for his combo to finish. Add in the half a second of the animation as well as the fact that he has to run up to do it and it leaves his enemies with a lot of ways to react and play around him. He also isn't great at sustained fights.

Talon bursts faster than Zed and is harder to see coming but his burst isn't quite as hard and he requires his ult to kill, meaning that he can't use it to escape.

Old Rengar burst far faster than either of them (Under half a second burst time) was all point and click (Ult Q>Q), had pretty good sustained fighting, and was incredibly snowbally due to his old passive.

It rewarded him for killing the weakest enemy over and over without punishing him for doing that.

Hope that helps, feel free to ask about anything you feel I didn't cover well.

You say 3 sec for zeds combos, but during his 3 sec isn't he untargetable? kinda similar to the same issue with Rengar?

I mean most of the time old Rengar still dies after the kill, but still takes out the correct champ. I mean I have counted as well, and all those champs kill time and get out feel and look the same. Rengars jump in animation is about 1.2 secs, but with all 3 champs most of the time they come out dead, or very rarely sometimes get way. So if the Difference is time it takes to kill and get out, but damage is pretty much the same, then there really is no difference right?

Fondling GemsMar 2, 20171 votes

Zed is only untargetable during the first .5 seconds when he is dashing to the target. He then has 3 seconds to do damage before his mark pops. Since his mark amplifies his damage he can't really combo before or after those 3 seconds making his power very windowed. His ult range also isn't very long meaning he often has to use W just to get close.

New Rengar has somewhat longer combo times but old Rengar had an incredibly fast combo because he could walk up until he was in normal AA range. He would then AA>Empowered Q>Q all of which were AA resets and which he could prepare before going after his target.

This meant his combo could easily come out in under .5 seconds so long as you knew how to do it. His fury bar would then rapidly fill due to hit ult and he could W heal or E bind someone else.

Zed on the other hand has a fast combo but it is composed entirely of skillshots and he has to use his combo during his ult for full damage. Since his ult took 3 seconds to pop this gives 3 seconds to get healed, shielded, lifesteal, hourglass etc. as part of his combo assuming he even landed the entire thing and had the damage.

What Zed sacrifices for his very strong escapes is having the counterplay of walk away because he needs to blow long CD abilities just to get close as well as having the longest delayed burst of any assassin.

Other assassins like Talon do not have as strong of an escape but in return have other tools like much more powerful mobility and somewhat faster (though still delayed) burst.

Ash LockheartMar 2, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fondling Gems,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=q4hEUOmP,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2017-03-02T08:21:25.228+0000)

Zed is only untargetable during the first .5 seconds when he is dashing to the target. He then has 3 seconds to do damage before his mark pops. Since his mark amplifies his damage he can't really combo before or after those 3 seconds making his power very windowed. His ult range also isn't very long meaning he often has to use W just to get close.

New Rengar has somewhat longer combo times but old Rengar had an incredibly fast combo because he could walk up until he was in normal AA range. He would then AA>Empowered Q>Q all of which were AA resets and which he could prepare before going after his target.

This meant his combo could easily come out in under .5 seconds so long as you knew how to do it. His fury bar would then rapidly fill due to hit ult and he could W heal or E bind someone else.

Zed on the other hand has a fast combo but it is composed entirely of skillshots and he has to use his combo during his ult for full damage. Since his ult took 3 seconds to pop this gives 3 seconds to get healed, shielded, lifesteal, hourglass etc. as part of his combo assuming he even landed the entire thing and had the damage.

What Zed sacrifices for his very strong escapes is having the counterplay of walk away because he needs to blow long CD abilities just to get close as well as having the longest delayed burst of any assassin.

Other assassins like Talon do not have as strong of an escape but in return have other tools like much more powerful mobility and somewhat faster (though still delayed) burst.

I get that with zed you can combo before mark which leaves a window, but when you do mark, then combo, that feels pretty fast as far as simler kits. With zeds kill time I always get ether 1.5 secs or 2 secs it takes to take out a adc or apc. Talon feels close as well late game with about 2.5 to 3 secs to kill the target. As for the damage with all champs feel the same. So am I understanding that its the time it takes to kill that is the difference with the camps and there kits?

Fondling GemsMar 2, 20171 votes

Zed takes 3 seconds minimum unless he is so ridiculously far ahead as to not need to ult to one shot you. That is how long it takes his ult mark to activate so he can't combo faster than that. Now he might ult, use his basic abilities in 1 second, then go back to his shadow and you might die, but you still have 3 seconds to do stuff.

Talon has a strange combo time. This is because his late game combo is only meh and he has more requirements to fully combo due to his passive. If he can't get close enough for the first activation of ult to hit you it can be difficult for him to fully combo, and even then his combo still has a short bleed time.

Talon honestly isn't a great example because he has both kill time and kill pressure cut far below most assassins due to having the most mobility in the game. He trades a lot of power for the ability to roam in and kill low health enemies, similar to an assassin jungler. It is also hard to discuss him because he was recently overtuned which skews things around too. If you were to rate all assassins on kill time from 1-10 with 10 being short then Zed would fall around a 2 and Talon would fall anywhere from 2-6 depending on how successfully he combos and how late in the game it is.

Ash LockheartMar 2, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fondling Gems,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=q4hEUOmP,comment-id=00000001000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-02T08:48:48.293+0000)

Zed takes 3 seconds minimum unless he is so ridiculously far ahead as to not need to ult to one shot you. That is how long it takes his ult mark to activate so he can't combo faster than that. Now he might ult, use his basic abilities in 1 second, then go back to his shadow and you might die, but you still have 3 seconds to do stuff.

Talon has a strange combo time. This is because his late game combo is only meh and he has more requirements to fully combo due to his passive. If he can't get close enough for the first activation of ult to hit you it can be difficult for him to fully combo, and even then his combo still has a short bleed time.

Talon honestly isn't a great example because he has both kill time and kill pressure cut far below most assassins due to having the most mobility in the game. He trades a lot of power for the ability to roam in and kill low health enemies, similar to an assassin jungler. It is also hard to discuss him because he was recently overtuned which skews things around too. If you were to rate all assassins on kill time from 1-10 with 10 being short then Zed would fall around a 2 and Talon would fall anywhere from 2-6 depending on how successfully he combos and how late in the game it is.

I get what you're saying, I just feel those 3 champs have very very similar kits, and kill times, and I know the old rengar's kit was faster, but when just playing some bots and building similar items. Armor pen, crit, and so on. side by side I can't really see much of a difference. You can Hourglass with Rengar as well. Idk. I just feel like the kits are pretty much the same. Only difference I am seeing how long it takes to kill the target with very rare moments of getting away. This is just me.

Fondling GemsMar 2, 20171 votes

Playing vs bots wont get you very accurate times because bots don't build realistically. Bots don't try to reach full build, usually stopping the moment they have 6 items in their inventory even if that includes dorans, potions, and component items.

This means that anyone with even meh burst is going to kill them in one rotation + maybe 1-2 autos.

Rengar Top LaneMar 2, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fondling Gems,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=q4hEUOmP,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-03-02T07:36:53.629+0000)

The difference was that Rengar didn't leave the player time to react, and there wasn't much you could do against him. Being invisible also meant that unless you had pink wards out you had no way to know if he was right next to you.

Zed takes 3 seconds after ulting for his combo to finish. Add in the half a second of the animation as well as the fact that he has to run up to do it and it leaves his enemies with a lot of ways to react and play around him. He also isn't great at sustained fights.

Talon bursts faster than Zed and is harder to see coming but his burst isn't quite as hard and he requires his ult to kill, meaning that he can't use it to escape.

Old Rengar burst far faster than either of them (Under half a second burst time) was all point and click (Ult Q>Q), had pretty good sustained fighting, and was incredibly snowbally due to his old passive.

It rewarded him for killing the weakest enemy over and over without punishing him for doing that.

Hope that helps, feel free to ask about anything you feel I didn't cover well.

Old Rengar was not ult->Q->Q. I have no clue what you are talking about right there and you have no clue what you are talking about in regards to Rengar. He was reworked because they deemed it unhealthy to delete from stealth like you said, only part I agree on. Unlike new Rengar he had to hit his combo unless he was extremely fed and at that point your team DESERVES to lose the game. New Rengar can do point click e q delete early->mid and late game he can ult->click and delete or use an e or q for extra damage.

Dislike seeing incorrect information regarding rengar...

Fondling GemsMar 3, 20171 votes

Then what was his combo? Because I distinctly remember him stacking his passive out of combat and ult jumping someone then using enhanced Q into normal Q to get 2 aa resets and delete his target.

He didn't use E or W as part of an assassination combo, he used them for utility vs targets he couldn't burst or to build stacks in combat. He was also pretty weak for a while, so he had to use W and E because he didn't have the burst to one shot most people pretty often. When he was actually strong as an assassin he very much deleted people that way, especially back in the days of triple Qing.

Rengar Top LaneMar 3, 20171 votes

You could emp Q jump if you had the damage to pull off a one shot (emp Q before jump->bola mid air->hydra/w). Otherwise, you would have to emp bola->tiamat->w- (tiamat and w is mid air)>q.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2wdXgBeqEc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fstPOydOYx8