PSA: If One Or More Of Your Laners Are Constantly Being Dove Under Tower And Dying....

Tentacle Advisor··7 votes·1,673 views

...GO HELP THEM!

Stop worrying about what you're currently doing (unless it's a free drake, Rift Herald or tower) and go help your teammate!

I just got out of a game where our Top Lane Teemo was going against a Riven. When laning phase first started, laning phase was going great for Teemo. At least until the enemy Lee Sin jungler ganked and killed him. No big, right? Well, it wouldn't be had the Lee Sin not come BACK up to top lane to dive our Teemo under tower (with Riven) and kill him the moment he teleported to lane. At this point, Teemo considered himself camped and began to stay under tower, letting the wave eventually push to him. Didn't help because Lee came up there again.

At this point, Riven was now basically taking a free tower. But, instead of defending the tower, our Jungler decided instead to get the Krugs. The Krugs. The ones no more than two feet from the damn tower. When confronted about his lack of assistance, by Teemo and myself, Zac went on to tell Teemo that he needed to ward to keep from dying.

Which brings me to the next point of the PSA: Wards DO NOT...I repeat...DO NOT protect you from being dove under your tower. Stop using this as a cop out for your own refusal to assist your teammate! Wards don't do anything but give you vision. Yes, vision deters ganks. More vision, less gankability [it's a word, I swear]. However, wards do not save you from tower dives. Especially if you are Teemo being dove by a Lee Sin and Riven.

The Zac then went on to tell Teemo that he should have simply gave up the 'Full HP" tower (it was still full hp after the 2nd gank, and before the 3rd gank/dive) to Riven for free. He decided that giving the enemy team a free first blood tower was a BETTER OPTION than HELPING HIS TEAMMATE NOT FEED.

Once Teemo and I had basically proven that Zac was wrong in this scenario, and he finally accepted that he was, Zac decided to change his argument to "well, you should have played Poppy instead".

Like, what? The player chose Teemo. They clearly did NOT pick Poppy, so how does bringing her up mean anything for this situation? Again, another cop out.

TL;DR: Wards deter ganks. They do NOT defend against constant tower dives. Choosing NOT to assist your 'currently feeding' teammate makes YOU a part of the problem. (Especially when they are the only one who needs assistance, at the time.)

[Extra Note: The Zac player was doing nothing but farming all game and didn't gank, at all, until AFTER Lee and Riven were fed.]

19 Comments

Mr Carbon5 votes

Never gank a losing lane... thanks bye

Aetherium Blade4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mr Carbon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=q0mVtN52,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-12-07T22:41:08.913+0000)

Never gank a losing lane... thanks bye

Apply pressure by showing your presence, even if its warded. Having the enemy back off gives the lane a chance to CS and catch up. Unless they are feeding really hard, then at that point, there's nothing you can really do about it.

You don't always have to gank. Simply being seen can be enough to force them to back off.

EDIT:

To add, it should always be warded, especially the tri-bush. You can see a dive clearly coming from a mile away if the enemy jungler is using it to get behind you.

Also, you shouldn't be pushed to far up without any vision. That's just asking to be ganked from behind and possibly getting you low enough to warrant a tower dive.

Mr Carbon3 votes

Intentionally revealing yourself without actually doing anything useful (Taking objectives, killing people) is some bronze level shit right there...

I'll repeat again... ignore any losing lane, and just mute them when they start bitching.

Tentacle Advisor4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mr Carbon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=q0mVtN52,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-07T22:52:11.683+0000)

Intentionally revealing yourself without actually doing anything useful (Taking objectives, killing people) is some bronze level shit right there...

I love how anything that doesn't compare to "I need to be aggressive", "I need to get a kill", etc, is automatically considered Bronze. Like, what? I didn't realize that being strategic and/or assisting your allies by any means necessary made people Bronze by default. Seriously, get this flawed logic out of here.

I also love how you believe that the only way to help your teammate is by killing the opposing laner. Getting objectives is not possible if your team is dead/dying. Also, revealing yourself CAN relieve pressure from your 'currently feeding' laner. And, since you already know the enemy jungler is there as well, how does it deter your team from doing their job? They already know where the enemy jungler is going to be.

I'll repeat again... ignore any losing lane, and just mute them when they start bitching.

So....your 'advice' is to let the ONLY ally on your team who is behind, not even because of their own skills or lack-there-of, but rather because the enemy jungler isn't even giving them a chance at succeeding, CONTINUE TO BE BEHIND? Your 'advice' is to ignore your teammate because they are in a situation that is completely out of their control? Your 'advice' is to let the enemy get free stuff from the ONLY LANE THAT IS STRUGGLING? Your 'advice' is to mute the ally who is genuinely requesting assistance from you, THEIR TEAMMATE?

I'd hate to have you as my teammate, regardless of whether or not the game was going our way, solely due to your 'You're such a Bronze' attitude.

Mr Carbon1 votes

Thestruggling teammate isn't worth the time.... What do you gain by helping him struggle to break even in lane....

It's widely understood that snowballing lanes that are already ahead is a much better tactic than worrying about a teammate who can't hold his weight.

To answer your entire last paragraph in one word... YES lol... and that's why I'm D3 and you are S5.

Tentacle Advisor1 votes

Okay, first of all, I'm S2. And I am only S2 because I don't play Ranked nearly as often as the average League player. I've been told by various different Plat friends of mine that I have the potential to be at least G3. I just simply don't care about my rank as much as every other player seems to.

Now, getting back to the actual topic here.

"Thestruggling teammate isn't worth the time.... What do you gain by helping him struggle to break even in lane...."

What do you gain? What you 'gain' is the opposing laner NOT getting a free snowballing lane. Choosing not to help an intentionally feeding ally is one thing. Choosing not to help a struggling ally (WHILE YOU HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY AND CAPABILITY TO DO SO) is another thing entirely. You're literally choosing to let your teammate feed. [Something that you'd probably flame them for later on in the game, despite it not being completely their fault.]

"It's widely understood that snowballing lanes that are already ahead is a much better tactic than worrying about a teammate who can't hold his weight."

And to that, I'd like to point out that none of the other lanes needed Zac's presence. Mid lane was constantly pushing the enemy mid under tower, while holding them there. Same thing was happening bot lane. There was literally no reason for Zac to gank the lanes. They were winning without his presence already. Despite this detail, however, the Jungler (Lee Sin) and the Riven both Snowballed the game to a victory because our Jungler didn't even attempt to push Lee's pressence off of Teemo. (And, again, he had every opportunity to do so.) All this could have been avoided with Zac doing something, even as small as simply appearing in the lane to deter Lee Sin.

Mr Carbon1 votes

Somebody once said you can't fix stupid...

If Riven Lee can dive a tower... don't you think Zac and "____" can to?

It's like you think the game is completely one sided...

It's 1000x easier to gank a lane that's already winning than trying to kill a fed laner and jungler 2v2... There literally is no point in touching the losing lane...

You are doing nothing but showing your ignorance... please stop...

Tentacle Advisor1 votes

Our jungler Zac did literally NOTHING to help Teemo. He showed no presence top lane to deter Lee from diving. He didn't gank mid (who was winning). He didn't gank bot (who was winning). He hardly warded anything (if at all). The point is Zac did NOTHING to help. He wasn't ganking our lanes, so the least he could have done was deter Lee Sin from Top Lane.

This game, specifically, WAS one-sided, because it was practically a 4v5 (with 2 of the 5 being the fed Riven and Lee Sin. And one of the 4 being the 'now far behind' Teemo, basically making it a 3v5).

And, also, again I NEVER mentioned anything about Zac killing the Riven. I never once suggested that Zac should have gone up there to kill her. What I said was that Zac COULD HAVE shown his presence up there, at the very least, to try to deter Lee Sin from camping up there and diving Teemo over and over again.

Mr Carbon1 votes

Once again... There is no point of being up there if he's not doing anything but being a warm body... If I'm ahead of my laning opponent... I could give 2 shits if there is a jungler near by... I'll kill them both...

THERE IS NOTHING ZAC COULD HAVE DONE TO HELP THE SITUATION TOP....

In that case you are right... he should have ganked a winning lane, but he didn't... The bottom line is that he didn't... so... pull your pants up... focus on yourself... stop bitching about your teammates and go try to win the game...

The point still stands... NEVER GANK A LOSING LANE...

I'm done trying to convince you that your thought process that you are caught up in is bronze and is garbage...

It amazes me that people don't take advice from people who have been there done that got the t-shirt

Tentacle Advisor1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mr Carbon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=q0mVtN52,comment-id=000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-08T01:22:02.807+0000)

It amazes me that people don't take advice from people who have been there done that got the t-shirt

It's probably because they're constantly being flamed by those people who have 'been there done that got the t-shirt'.

Higher ranking players, (for the most part of my years in League) do nothing but flame every mistake a lower ranking player makes. Lower ranking players never have a chance to figure out what they're doing wrong because the higher ranking players (mostly Plats) are too busy nagging the 'this is why you're [insert rank here]' issue. They never give solutions to the issue that comes up. Instead, they complain and remind the lower ranking player of the mistake(s). Every. Two. Minutes that go by.

Mr Carbon2 votes

Then Why as a Diamond 3 mid laner in the top 10k of all 2.2 Million NA league players... who calmly stated to never gank a losing lane... did I have to spend the past few hours trying to convince you of a widely known, used, and helpful strategy. We are forced to smash it into your minds because sometimes you insist on thinking you know everything...

EndlessSorcerer1 votes

Welcome to jungler's life.

At least you only had to convince one person.

HeeroTX4 votes

My current opinion is: If the enemy jungler is aggressive (and doesn't suck) and your jungler is not, then you're screwed. For whatever reason (presumably "Fla$hy, LC$ Big Play$") Riot wants strong ganking junglers, and has made decisions to promote that. So if your jungler doesn't make their presence felt then you have a massive disadvantage.

Tentacle Advisor1 votes

{quoted}

For whatever reason (presumably "Fla$hy, LC$ Big Play$") Riot wants strong ganking junglers, and has made decisions to promote that.

This point here is honestly starting to deter me from playing Ranked anymore. The viable champion pool is becoming more and more limited. Though I understand completely how it can be beneficial to simply play what is strong atm, I dislike the idea of having my choice of champion limited by the standard and NOT having the option to pick something else.

LostFr0st1 votes

It's almost never the correct decision to gank the lane if its losing that hard. At best you make that lane neutral, when you could be getting a different lane ahead to make up for it when teamfights start.

If it gets to the point of being dove twice, the laner should probably just give up the tower. It's not worth.

Tentacle Advisor1 votes

That's all fine and dandy, but the rest of us were already pushing up to our enemy's towers, as well as possibly killing our opposing laners. There was no way, nor reason, for the jungler to put pressure on anything but the Teemo's lane. We were all doing fine. We lost the game because the Riven (And Lee) got fed off of diving Teemo, because Teemo did not receive the help he genuinely asked for.

"At best you make that lane neutral..." <----- This is a whole lot better than allowing the opposing laner to snowball freely.

LostFr0st1 votes

Why didn't the rest of you go up there then? Zac certainly doesn't want to sacrifice the other lanes' leads; he should watch over and protect them, letting Teemo's fall until more teammates can assist. An even Zac+behind Teemo cannot physically beat a fed Riven+Lee sin alone. They don't have the damage.

Tentacle Advisor1 votes

{quoted}

Why didn't the rest of you go up there then?

I was the adc. I asked Lulu to go assist him, since Zac wouldn't. She refused. I asked Brand (our mid) to help him. He refused.

Zac certainly doesn't want to sacrifice the other lanes' leads; he should watch over and protect them, letting Teemo's fall until more teammates can assist.

Teemo was the only one who needed assistance. The rest of use were doing just fine, even without Zac. (Zac didn't even agree to gank our lanes, either, anyway. So that wouldn't have made much difference, to begin with.)

An even Zac+behind Teemo cannot physically beat a fed Riven+Lee sin alone. They don't have the damage.

I never asked for Zac to go up there and kill Riven. I simply asked him to show presence top lane. Hell, even Teemo calmly asked for Zac to at least 'pop in' every now and then just to deter Lee Sin's presence. He refused.

[Note: Should I note that the Brand, Lulu, and Zac were a Trio while Teemo and I were a duo? I didn't think this was necessary in this case, but it may add a few more clues and stuff.]

LostFr0st1 votes

Zac showing top WON'T DO **** ALL. It just won't. It's a waste of time, plain and simple. It won't deter Lee AT ALL. I've tried to make it very clear but I don't know what else to say.

Zac literally only has 3 aggressive options:

  1. Invade Lee's jungle on the other side of the map (between bot and mid)
  2. Gank mid--->dragon
  3. Gank Bot--->dragon

That's it, that's all he's got. If the two lanes (mid and bot) are pushed, then he's stuck with farming (either by invading Lee's jungle or farming his own) because the laners aren't giving him anything else to do.

And no, it doesn't matter that it was a trio+duo. It doesn't change anything. If Zac shows top Lee will signal his laners (they prob have a trio+due too) to go aggressive.

Sidenote: To be honest, Teemo can solve the problem himself with this item:item 3512. Its a very efficient item on anyone who is behind; kinda like a crutch to lean on. It will automatically keep the minions from reaching his turret, get most of the cs, and they physically can't dive him as long as it's under his turret if they don't have a huge wave (placed slightly behind but right under tower). item 2053 also gives armor and regen, along with ms to get back to lane faster if he needs to recall. Most people won't admit defeat and buy it though; they think it's silly, so there's that.

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