Bot lane is now decided by whoever has more jungler presence

Rivuo·Dec 27, 2016·57 votes·2,642 views

But thats none of my business.

44 Comments

WhitakkerDec 27, 201612 votes

Can confirm. When I play jungle (which is 90% of the time), I like to make bot my priority.

Conversely, I'm used to never seeing my jungler when I'm ADC/Support. They'd much rather jerk off in toplane trying futilely to save our feeding Teemo.

Spaceman5pffDec 27, 20167 votes

to be fair, in well over half of games, you will have a botlane that either doesn't participate in the gank, or where just the AD or JUSt the supp participates.

When this happens, the enemy botlaners kinda just turn and fight and get a kill or force one or two of us to base.

And yes, this even applies to botlanes that ask for ganks, they are usually the worst offenders when it comes to incomplete / no participation.

Sometimes, it just isn't worth trusting my life, and possibly the game, in the hands of a random botlane.

Bear GauntletsDec 27, 20163 votes

Or you'll get the bot lanes that over commit, flash into tower range, then start screaming when you didn't accompany them on their suicide mission.

I'd rather gank the lanes that have only one possible knucklehead in them.

Spaceman5pffDec 28, 20161 votes

If we are being honest with ourselves, it is almost always the ADC's fault when the gank doesn't work. They either go in WAY too soon / deep or they don't go in at all.

TeCoolMageDec 28, 20161 votes

If the champ is like Janna and Soraka, both are incapable of doing anything with a flash other than an extremely tiny amount of unreliable damage.

But if it's a Thresh/Blitzcrank, they're always going to go for the madlife lantern wrong direction, flash under tower, miss hook bs.

Spaceman5pffDec 28, 20161 votes

I don't think you give those champs enough credit.

Janna has a reasonably powerful targeted slow that can help her jungler set up their CC / damage.

Soraka can lead the gank with a Q slow, and later use her E to deny the use of escape spells.

It isn't as straightforward as Thresh, or Crank, but it is more powerful than you give credit for.

VerdadeDec 28, 20161 votes

Reasonably powerful slow... WHAT?! LOL By that you mean 24% slow for 3 seconds that she takes at level 3 or 4 at earliest?

Soraka with her 30% slow for 2 seconds that she hardly EVER hits if she faces competent opponents? Also she can't lead a gank because she's squishy AF and dies in 3 seconds if she tries to be the initiator

Man, if you said something like Vel'koz (70% for 1.8s), Lulu (80% for 2s) or even failed Bard's Q (60% for 1.4s), but sub-30% slow in meta where 90% of ADCs have some kind of mobility? LUL

TeCoolMageDec 29, 20161 votes

It's powerful if you use it from the backline or to follow up from the start of a gank, sure

but Janna's slow is an anti engage and you won't get into range even after flashing

and Soraka is generally behind the ADC too so at best she gets a max range Q which is easy to dodge, also anti engage or poke.

They're only powerful when the enemy fights back, this is coming from someone who used to constantly flash under tower as Soraka, I got more kills from my 1% crit rune than I got assists from the flash slow. (for reference I was extremely lucky and went 6/0 from multiple crits)

Spaceman5pffDec 29, 20161 votes

Idk but you might see more success if you didn't feel the need to flash before doing literally anything.

TeCoolMageDec 29, 20161 votes

I don't see how Soraka or Janna can go in too soon or too deep unless they use flash. They just use their abilities from behind the ADC and hit an occasional ability at the start.

Spaceman5pffDec 29, 20161 votes

The difference is in when you walk forward.

Walk forward at the right time, and you serve as bait. Walk forward too soon, and you just die.

Let's use janna for example: You walk forward as if attempting to poke with autos, stepping just a BIT forward out of safety so that the enemy see it as a chance to go on you (this serves two purposes A) hopefully pulling them a bit forward in the lane, distancing them from their tower a bit more and B) taking their eyes off of nearby bush wards decreasing the chances of your jungler being seen)

When they go on you, you want to use your instant-cast AOE knockup to try to pin them in place as your jungler approaches, then your W comes in to slow their escape. If only one enemy takes the bait on you, you can just as easily lead with W rather than Q.

I am no Janna expert, but from what I understand this is pretty standard strategy / pattern for many enchanter / utility supports like Janna Lulu Nami .

It is more about baiting the enemy into the gank, rather than forcing it. Forcing it is usually easier, for sure, but it isn't the only way.

MinaZer0Dec 27, 20161 votes

I would think that is the most obvious lane to gank, 2 people bot means more kills = more gold = moar itemz

DHBGrimReaperDec 27, 20168 votes

Nah, you should go to top lane where if you arent playing ranged champion with escapes you will always get towerdived by a fulltank olaf or zac over and over while your jungler jerks off to it.

GayFluffyUnicornDec 28, 20161 votes

Yeah funny how botlane cries after two month of botlane focus when nearly every game midlane or toplane get solely decided by the jungler towerdiving you since s5 or s4.

iClownDec 27, 20167 votes

It has always been this way since s3

MunchCrunchLunchDec 27, 20164 votes

its really which retards decide to fight inside a minion wave

ph1234kDec 27, 20163 votes

Not really. In fact enemy jungler presence in lane can cause you to get even further ahead.

Jungler comes in, your smart enough not to die to a gank and while he might help enemy get a 1-5 cs lead your jungler has pressure on the map as does your team who now all know that they can play aggressively without enemy jungler retaliation.

Most enemy junglers that come into my bot lane just feed me.

SGT Dingle BerryDec 27, 20163 votes

Bot lane is decided by warding and map awareness, especially if mid has their part of the river warded. If the enemy has a diver jungler then you need deeper wards and more health awareness.

WukongzDec 27, 20161 votes

LeeSin + item 3117 item 1408 + summoner 4 R or Hecarim

It lets you chose if you want to give up first turret + drake for free, or double kill + 1st turret + drake for free.

No amounts of wards and map awareness can stop 4 people from either diving you behind 2 turrets with their crazy mobility & cc & burst champs or instead taking those 2 turrets while you sit there and watch them fall apart like a house of cards in a hurricane.

Bot lane at the moment is a disgusting place to be. Basically if you don't have flash up chances are you'll get cut into ribbons in a manner of seconds. Current meta junglers are too fast to outrun unless you maybe rush tier 2 boots and pray the enemy doesn't have some sort of a stupid-ass slow or cc.

I'd say that playing bot right now summarizes 2016 real good.

The NinjerDec 27, 20163 votes

It's that and how good the bot lane is in general. I've had my share of garbage bot laners (I'm one of them, I can't play ADC to save my life) who rush in and die to take out the enemies under the tower. Or the ADC can't hit his skillshots at all. Sometimes the bot lane is good but they keep getting murdered by 4 people.

I understand where you're coming from though, junglers definitely have a huge impact on bot lane. Especially when it comes to camping or countering a 4 man assault.

Rockm SockmDec 27, 20163 votes

Junglers are the easiest lane to carry with.

There is souch xp in the jungle that tjey can miss all the ganks in the world without falling behind.

LuggDec 28, 20163 votes

Bot lane is determined by the skill of the ADC and Support. If you are pushed up without vision, it isn't the junglers fault you get ganked and double killed.

VerdadeDec 28, 20161 votes

It's heavily influenced by your jungler, mid and top as well.

If enemy mid gets missing, your mid should either hardpush the wave or go to gank bot/top. Sadly, he doesn't 99% of the time Your jungler should see openings, both your enemy's and yours., If you are pushing, he should know it will attract attention of enemy jungler. Counterganks are a thing, very powerful and extremely morale-breaking thing. Enemy top is missing too long? Either watch out for TPs on bot and counter it, or push your damn wave, or gank mid lane.

LuggJan 5, 20171 votes

Ganks definitely have an influence. However, if the ADC and support play smart, they should be fine 90% of the time. If the enemy team wants to tower dive 3v2, you should win that most times. If you can't farm under tower and defend, the problem is with your skills, not your jungler.

Ariel the CruelDec 27, 20162 votes

This is new. . . How?

Nameless VoiceDec 27, 20161 votes

Mid lane even more so. Welcome to the season 7 jungle, where junglers have enough time to both clear their jungle and camp lanes.

Velzard of KozDec 27, 20161 votes

Just had game where enemy jungler reportedly camped our botlane (according to the support) and they still won the lane (enemy ADC was like 0/14 so "won" is weak word). True, I am Silver V so with my map awareness I don't know to what extend our jungler took care of them, he certainly didn't ignore them either as I saw him on the minimap there now and then.

bleufromageDec 27, 20161 votes

well my problem when i play jungle is my bot lane always wants to be pushed up and i have no way to even blow a summoner and then when im on the opposite side of the map they decide they will let them push the wave in and bitch that i cant instantly teleport bot. On the other hand when i play the role of adc i always let them push me in because im more of a passive farm laner, and my jungle will not visit once.thing is bronze players just dont understand map pressure or awareness.

DarthClownfaceDec 27, 20161 votes

{quoted}

well my problem when i play jungle is my bot lane always wants to be pushed up and i have no way to even blow a summoner and then when im on the opposite side of the map they decide they will let them push the wave in and bitch that i cant instantly teleport bot. On the other hand when i play the role of adc i always let them push me in because im more of a passive farm laner, and my jungle will not visit once.thing is bronze players just dont understand map pressure or awareness.

This right here. How the hell do you get your bot Lane to understand this concept of pushing = no gank

bleufromageDec 27, 20161 votes

i mean there are ways to gank when they are pushed up but they require a lot of coordination and are super risky. Those two things are really bad in low elo ranked.

Linna ExcelDec 28, 20161 votes

Have you tried playing divers?

bleufromageDec 28, 20161 votes

i had more diana games in 2016 than any other jungle champ ive played in the past 3 years

SpecterVonBarenDec 27, 20161 votes

I thought it was decided by which team wants to send everyone bot first.

ValyrianBladeDec 27, 20161 votes

{quoted}

90% of lanes are decided by who has more jungle presence.

There - corrected it for you.

Btw the exceptions are lanes with a great skill disparity (i.e. awful matchmaking) and champions that can easily escape ganks (at least 1 dash or ms-steroid with cc). Minor exception is Lane counters and early game bullies, minor since they'll often lose due to enemy jungler presence but if the jungler shows elsewhere they can win without allied jungle presence.

XonraDec 28, 20161 votes

I miss the days where I could win lane cause I was better than my bot duo, and not lose it cause my jungler lost the map to find his way past scuttle crab, while jungler on the enemy team is lubing up and constantly camping.

DunkinNoobsDec 28, 20161 votes

That's pretty much how I feel about it. There's like a 70% chance that either my bot lane or jungle is going to suck, and in either case, that means we lose our first bot tower at like 8-9 minutes almost every game.

DengedenDec 28, 20161 votes

If it's that easy, why don't you do it for the freelo?

GelmousDec 28, 20161 votes

it's also decided by which solo laners are more whiling to roam

Meep ManDec 28, 20161 votes

Bottom Lane is decided by how much effort is put into it.

That means:

The skill of the lane itself
How many good ganks from the Jungler
How many good roams from Middle Lane
How many good TPs from Top Lane
How much control their team has over Dragon (and sometimes Rift Herald)

RookPusherDec 28, 20161 votes

As a support main, I sort of feel like junlgers and mid-lanes roaming are opportunities for more kills. Granted, your jungler needs to not be a mouth-breather, but by and large if your team is awake I see it as a potential to get my ADC fed.

Linna ExcelDec 28, 20161 votes

Maybe riot should get rid of jungle camps and turn the jungler into a second bot support.