Why is Kalista's spear not optional?

BADxW0LF·Dec 1, 2014·92 votes·7,620 views

I should have the choice to pick it up, not have it thrown at me and have no control in game for the next few seconds. I had the worst possible situation happen last night when I was support for a Kalista. She didn't throw her spear at me at beginning, so I asked her why she hadn't. She told me she would "do it later". After leashing jung and getting into lane position, she still hadn't done it. So, probably stupid me, I just initiated my normal routine of support and poked hard. Well, right when I am staring the opposing support (Thresh) in the face, she decides to throw her spear at me, causing me to not be able to do anything at all. I had to burn my flash, health pot (which I can usually sustain in lane for a long time before using), and still ended up dying because of this obvious troll.

Her spear NEEDS to be accepted, not forced on someone who doesn't want it.

107 Comments

CupcakeTrapDec 1, 201455 votes

When Kalista was first announced, I seem to recall it being indicated that her passive worked as follows: she tosses out the spear item, and then it's up to the other Champion whether or not to bind themselves to her and become her discount Braum ult. As far as I can tell, that's not how she works on live. There's no choice: she clicks on you and then you get "killed" and turned into her skillshot for the rest of the match.

I have to say, I liked it better the way it was first described: as an affirmative decision. I suppose in an ideal world, Kalista players would ask you in chat beforehand, "Can I bind you, or should I bind the jungler?" or something like that, but this is LoL: we don't always get the ideal when it comes to inter-player communication. That being the case, it seems that the game itself should give you a choice.

The status quo is … awkward, to say the least.

Kalista hi veigar Veigar Who the hell are you? Kalista im kallista Kalista kalista* Kalista from shado ilses Veigar Never heard of you. Kalista im new Kalista lookin 4 friends at institute Kalista everyone seems super nice Veigar …why are you looking at me like that? Kalista u want vengence? Veigar Ye— WAIT. I have heard about you. No! Go away! Kalista k we frends now Veigar No! I said no! I sa— AARARRGGGHGHHHHH! Kalista lol Kalista now i help u take vengnce with ult Veigar What does that mean? I move faster? Get a shield? Do more damage? Kalista no i throw u at the other team and u knock them up Veigar WHAT? Kalista remember 2 peel for me Veigar So at last it has come to this. Veigar Transformed into a lackluster Braum ult in the hands of an imbecile ADC. Veigar My life is torment. Kalista sigh no wards Kalista hey cutie Leona Oh, hello.

Kalista i offer ppl a grim choice 2 claim vengence Lux W-what? What do you mean? Kalista if they impale themselves on my spear we are bffs 4evah Lux Why would someone do that?! Kalista because vengnce has consumed all that they once wer Kalista or actuly i just stab them Kalista like by surprise Kalista lol Lux That's not a bargain. That's just murdering someone with a spear! Kalista ask narrtive is in my story Kalista new lore much better imo Kalista it is a dark ritual Lux It's really not! You're just a psychopath with a spear! Kalista u sound angry Kalista maybe vengeful Kalista … Lux … Lux LUCIAN! VAYNE! HEL— AAARGGGGHHHHHHH!!! Kalista she has acepted my dark pact Kalista we have both grown as characters actuly Kalista new lore much better imo

Kalista oh hey trundle Trundle glare Trundle Yeah? Kalista i hear u want vengeance on the other trols Kalista they made fun of you and stuff Kalista we should teach them a lesson Trundle Yeah, I already took care of that. Kalista u stabbed urself? Trundle I bashed their fucking heads in with a giant club. Trundle And then I took all their stuff. Kalista but when did u stab urself Trundle Legendary general, huh. Kalista ya Kalista u know botrk? Kalista totally knew that dude Kalista the runed king Kalista ruined* (Every other Champion in the League of Legends) WE KNOW!

Kalista actuly u can say no if u want Kalista u just have to walk outside the range Kalista its like five teemos Kalista here go ahead try Veigar runs Kalista one, two, FIVE LOL Veigar AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGHH!!! Kayle What is going on here? Kayle Summoner Lyte tells me that Veigar and his Summoner have filed a report. Kalista he chose 2 impale himself Kalista in his back Kalista idk why

In short*, I'd like it if we could go back to how Kalista was (apparently?) intended to work: once you throw yourself on that spear, you're her minion for the rest of the match, but the initial decision is up to you.

*: Possible short joke.

Source

BADxW0LFDec 1, 20143 votes

lol. yeah someone linked to your post right before you commented. enjoyed the commentary.

CupcakeTrapDec 1, 20145 votes

lol. yeah someone linked to your post right before you commented. enjoyed the commentary.

Yeah, I'm glad someone else is also finding her passive less than awesome. I don't deny that there are cool things you can do with it, but it radically changes your game experience, and I think some element of choice should be involved.

Also, it's just bizarre to me that a "vengeance pact" lore concept would be implemented as her just murdering someone with a spear.

EnvyDragonDec 1, 20143 votes

You've read this, right?

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/UTTHinkA-short-stories-kalista-invocation

Part of the pact's ritual involves the petitioner stabbing themselves with Kalista's spear. It makes perfect sense in context.

...But yeah, wasn't it supposed to be optional? I distinctly remember someone saying it was optional in her introduction/reveal fanfare. Maybe it's bugged?

The alternative here is that they wanted to make sure Kalista could bond with someone who didn't know how she functioned. I can easily imagine throwing my spear at some potato-brained support who just runs away from it and doesn't do a thing...

...though they already solved the "make people click things" problem with the leading-arrows on Thresh's lantern. Why not make Kalista's spear work the same way?

CupcakeTrapDec 2, 20143 votes

I have, yes. (I even posted some snarky comments, as well as some more constructive ones.) I'm just observing that, if the other person doesn't willingly accept the oath, it goes from "Kalista offering them a terrible choice" to simply "Kalista murdering them with a spear and taking their soul."

LeeDarkDec 2, 20142 votes

Yeah, well... the ingame happenings are no longer connected to lore. At all. So I guess it makes sense?

/sarcasm

NaidoDec 2, 20142 votes

Logged in for the first time in 3 years to upvote this.

Thank you, and carry on.

CupcakeTrapDec 2, 20142 votes

Logged in for the first time in 3 years to upvote this.

Thank you, and carry on.

Aww. Thank you!

WadeusDec 1, 201410 votes

I would say that you were playing with a person who was trolling. They waited until you were in a bad spot, then forced you to stand there.

BADxW0LFDec 1, 20146 votes

Yeah, I would agree, hence why I said he was an "obvious troll" in my post. Still, the spear should have to be accepted by a player, not forced upon.

WadeusDec 1, 20143 votes

Alright. My bad, I guess I did not read the very end.

A Slime AppearsDec 1, 20145 votes

Captain obvious reporting for duty.

As for myself, I was playing Vi jungle and Kalista decided to bond with me by our red...right before all 5 champs showed up to invade. It did not go well. It really needs to be accepted, not forced.

MajorPain9Dec 1, 20147 votes

Agreed. This is currently the most anti fun ADC to play with on my team as a support main and why she is now on a perma ban list.

Dominick DestineDec 1, 20147 votes

I tend to agree.

When I first saw it in game, I clicked it and assumed it was optional... then the next time I played with Kalista, she just threw the spear at me and I got marked with no input on my part. It should not be this way.

DimwittDec 1, 20146 votes

Thank you Riot for giving trolls even more power with this champion. I don't rage quit a game often but this champion in the hands of trolls just made me do that.

Because you know what's fun, not having control of your champion. Giving the ability to one troll in the room to decide oh hey lets screw with that guy. Lets hurl him where ever because you know what. COOL NEW MECHANIC.

Clearly whoever designed this champion needs to go sit down and do some risk analysis again.

Yes i mad. deal with it.

ZyyyZDec 1, 20143 votes

"hurl him where ever"

Are you sure you even play and bond with a Kalista before? You IGN seems rather fitting.....

AMYS GRAVEDec 1, 20142 votes

there are several ways she can be used to troll. if she dies you don't get to choose where you fall for example. she can ult you while you channel your ult effectively cancelling it, she can pull you out of position to protect her instead of team mates who need protection more than she does, etc... all without you ever having a choice in the matter.

ZyyyZDec 1, 20143 votes

All true, but she CANNOT "hurl" you anywhere. Sucking you in is not the same as hurling you into the enemy. If she flash into the enemy and then ult you, it is in your best interest to not be in that lane anymore and immediately "hurl" yourself away.

Trolls normally do not try to win game so go support elsewhere. Don't stay in that lane.

AMYS GRAVEDec 1, 20142 votes

in some sense she can "hurl" you from where you were to where she is as long as she dies quickly enough.

if i don't stay in that lane they have inhibitor by ~12 minutes. even if i give up on trying to get kalista fed(as she isn't helping anyway) someone needs to do something about bot lane. if our mid or jung goes bot to try to control that lane kalista can rebind to them (non-optionally) and she can force feed with our mid laner as well.

we either give up an entire lane, or lose two players to an intentional feeder. both options give up any semblance of dragon control and give the intentional feeder much more power than they have had with any other champion previously released.

TheEggmanWeNeedDec 1, 20142 votes

Actually, i believe she can NOT cancel channels. At least, not with nunu. I noticed that it waits until his ult finishes before pulling him to me.

AMYS GRAVEDec 1, 20141 votes

there are posts all over the forums to the contrary with nunu, morgana, fiddle, etc... she may not supposed to be able to but she can.

Ariel the CruelDec 2, 20144 votes

This has been tested extensively (with youtube videos avilable), and the results are inconsistent. She can cancel a Fid ult, but if she grabs him after he teleports, the AoE moves onto her. She can't grab a Nocturne mid-ult. If she grabs a Twisted Fate while he ults, he will immediatly super-man to her after he teleports. Her ult won't grab a NuNu until after his ult goes off. If she Ults an ulting Lucian, his ult will shoot from her. I think she canceled the morgana ult also. She Can ult Eggnivia, for laughs. But not Aatrox or Zac. I Think she was able to ult Sion during his passive, and champs revived by Yorik Ult.

That's just off the top of my head. She's still less buggy than Yorik Ult, Azir Everything, and Kha'zix concept though.

BADxW0LFDec 2, 20141 votes

She can't "hurl" you. She has no control where you go. That is up to the person she pulls in.

AMYS GRAVEDec 2, 20142 votes

not if she dies. if she dies you get dropped where she died without choice.

if she has tp and ults you with good timing, you will land in an area around wherever she tped to. oh you were trying to defend bot tower? not anymore now you're top with me.

BADxW0LFDec 2, 20141 votes

Yes, but again. You misunderstand the definition of "hurling". You control where you throw yourself. She doesn't throw you. She can pull you, yes. But she can't do the throwing.

AMYS GRAVEDec 2, 20142 votes

hurling [hur-ling] noun

the act of throwing or casting, especially with great force or strength.

kalista is casting you from one location to another. that fits perfectly well with the definition. your argument is nothing but semantics and ignores the actual gameplay problem underlying this whole thread.

is the fact that your teammate has a pull instead of a push make forced cc ok?

AMYS GRAVEDec 2, 20141 votes

She has no control where you go.

forget the semantics argument we were having. this is straight up false.

BADxW0LFDec 2, 20141 votes

Lol. admitting defeat apparently, but ok. And no. It's not false. She pulls you in and then you fire yourself. She doesn't fire you. Have you even played as Kali or as her bonded person?

AMYS GRAVEDec 3, 20141 votes

Lol. admitting defeat apparently, but ok.

im not admitting defeat, you are pedantically arguing semantics when there is a larger issue here.

And no. It's not false. She pulls you in and then you fire yourself. She doesn't fire you.

not if she dies you dont. if she dies you fall right where she died without any choice in the matter. if that is under an enemy turret or into an enemy ultimate too bad. if she tp to another lane then you follow her to that lane with no choice either. pulling you under the enemy turret right before she dies or pulling you to another lane across the map is quite a lot of control over where you go. there is no other champion in the game where as an ally they can negatively cc you.

Have you even played as Kali or as her bonded person?

and yes i have been bound to kalista many times with terrible trolls.

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/2LaIJZhr-kalistas-binding-and-ult-should-be-optional-for-the-soulbound

BADxW0LFDec 3, 20141 votes

Siiiiiiigh. DUDE! Your original argument was that she hurls you somewhere. I argued that she doesn't have the option to hurl you anywhere! YOU have the control of the second part of her ult. You are grabbing extra points to extend onto your argument just to make you right.

AMYS GRAVEDec 3, 20141 votes

that was Dimwitt's wording not mine, replace hurl with pull and all your arguments fall apart. if you are going to ignore the fact that she has a cc on her own team then i'm done, because you have no response to that.

BADxW0LFDec 3, 20141 votes

There you go! I'm so proud of you that you have finally acknowledged that the use of hurl in this context was incorrect. Finally! My work here is done. PS I like how you went through all of your comments and edited them to change every instance of "hurl" to something to fit the context. Bravo. Bye bye now.

AMYS GRAVEDec 3, 20141 votes

hurl vs pull is not the point or purpose of this thread

if your work here was to be a condescending and pathetically pedantic troll, well done. you may leave now.

i have not changed the word hurl in any of my previous posts. i only used it twice in reference to Dimwitt's post which aside from one word choice makes a very valid point. you have ignored the fact that i have consciously been using pull and you have been ignoring the actual point of this thread which is that **kalista's ult is a cc on her own team and that is unacceptable. ** a point to which, i reitterate, you have no retort to.

BADxW0LFDec 3, 20141 votes

Again...original poser of thread = me. Pretty sure that's what I said to begin with. So at least we can agree on something.

AMYS GRAVEDec 3, 20141 votes

you being the OP doesn't mean that you aren't ignoring the purpose of this comment thread which is that kalista's ult is a cc on her own team and that is unacceptable. a point to which, i reiterate, you have no retort to.

BADxW0LFDec 3, 20141 votes

Le sigh. I have never once retorted, nor argued against said point. So why are you even arguing with me in the first place? All I did was try to correct your use of hurl. Never once argued against it that point. You sound like a broken record with only one soundtrack.

AMYS GRAVEDec 3, 20141 votes

you said -

She has no control where you go.

which is arguing against the entire thread, but now you say you never took that stance? I'm glad you can admit that you were wrong from the beginning but next time try to focus on the actual conversation that is trying to be had.

AMYS GRAVEDec 4, 20141 votes

if you think i'm annoying try replying to someone who is ignoring your posts, clinging to an irrelevant point, and accusing you of editing your own posts after the fact....

its a comment, there is no context other than "i'm replying to the previous person" i'm not sure how i could have taken that out of context?

I implied she has no control where you throw yourself after she reels you in.

Kalista can take control over where you throw yourself by dying. then she has full control over where you throw yourself in that you have no choice or control whatsoever. you fall where she died.

AMYS GRAVEDec 4, 20141 votes

haha we reached the nesting depth limit in this thread...

FantasySniperDec 2, 20144 votes

Because people would never accept it.

Chromatic EagleDec 2, 20147 votes

Because people would never accept it.

Then it's a bad ability that shouldn't exist.

LegostrikeDec 3, 20142 votes

I would, but if there's enough kast trolls out there I would stop. as Eagle said, the troll potential makes it a horrid ability.

KhaoticKhymeraDec 31, 20141 votes

If people never accept it (which they did before when it was optional, but I digress) then it should be reworked into a useful ability.However,not everyone wants to be picked up in the middle of playing. This ult surrenders control of your champion completely. That being said it should be voluntary not forced on you by another players whim. That being said I'm not exactly sure why there is even a debate with this. It should without a doubt be optional. Look at the outcomes. When its an option nothing changes in a good Kalista Comp except a mouse click. People who can't use the champion correctly and trolls are unable to screw things up (They can go practice with friends). Seems like a no brainer and I'm shocked its not a choice tbh. If people argue that no one will accept the ult then you can change champions. If you want to play Kalista so badly and use the ult then get a friend to support for you. Just as you want to use a champions ult I want to maintain control over my champion and keeping control over your own playing experience takes a higher priority than making the game revolve around one person. I for one don't want to accept the spear from anyone except people I know because so far its ruined every match I played due to someone not knowing what to do with it or even trolling.

HayaishiDec 2, 20144 votes

if that was the case nobody would want to pick it up.

BallisticMouseDec 1, 20143 votes

I could see the spear needing to be accepted ending worse than it in the current condition.

What if no one on the team wants to accept it? Kalista ult/W-passive/etc completely down the drain.

What if someone way upon another lane is the only one to want to accept? Because lets face it. Kalista's only viable spear accepters are Jungle and Support/ADC.

OrbvDec 1, 201410 votes

That should have been considered when they created her. If nobody on a team wants to accept it, then they are trolling anyway.The difference is that you need to intentionally not care for Kalista to be useless. Right now she can assign it to her Mid Lux and it would do absolutely nothing but hurt them.

BADxW0LFDec 1, 20147 votes

If nobody on the team wants to accept it, then maybe in lobby the should have communicated whether or not they should play Kalista in the first place. I'm usually ok with accepting the spear pending which champ I use as support. If I choose Soraka, I won't accept it because she is useless as an attacker. Better for Jungler to accept it in that situation and surprise gank.

Lobby communication is key, even more so when choosing Kalista.

Cale017Dec 1, 20147 votes

If no one accepts it, it's then the team's fault that Kalista is one ability short of a full kit because no one wanted to bite the bullet and work with her. It doesn't even have to be the support, it can be a tankier jungler, or the top laner who has TP and can come down to bot when Kalista's ready to go ham. That road does go both ways, even if her spear doesn't.

GorbacheDec 1, 20141 votes

A lot of people are complaining about the spear being a problem but you can pretty much troll equally on a lot of champions.

People are overreacting, I've played a bunch of games with a Kalista and I have yet to have a bad experience. At the opposite, I had some of the best interaction with Kalista's (as the support or Kal herself) where we were joking, strategizing, etc. I had a Brand support where I started as : I'm just going to ult you to save you to chasing down people where I would throw him so he can finish his stun, suicide bomb with his ult, etc.

AMYS GRAVEDec 1, 20144 votes

if kalista tower dives and ults you right before she dies to the turret, you get dropped under the turret. no other champion can directly pull you into that without a choice in the matter. she can troll by not just intentionally feeding herself to the enemy but you as well.

i'm glad you had a positive experience but many people have not.

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/2LaIJZhr-kalistas-binding-and-ult-should-be-optional-for-the-soulbound