There are better ways to balance Kayle... :<

GG Noob Team··38 votes·4,002 views

Before you will drop your heat towards the champion you dont like, just read this. I am a kayle main since season 1, i played her a lot a lot games and like the champion concept itself with range basic attacks powered by magic. She has decent wave clearing, her damage is nice when built right and totally love the 2 supportive spells that could change game tides.

Before the patch with AP customization changes, her pick ratio was about 2% or less, no one was banning her at all, and win ratio was oscillating between 47 to 49%. Then the patch 5.13 comes out and i was really happy about that tiny buff my champion received. 0.05 ap ratio on E has helped me in middle game, while passive E damage made my last hitting easier, so already i could play against competitive picks without fear i will get horribly outfarmed and smashed on the wall. item 3115 Nashoor tooth change was really helpful as well, it filled the gap of AP need, and after all the champion felt really nice after those changes, counterable, not that easy to play, but rewarding if you know what you are doing.

However Riot, you introduced to the game this item item 3931 in the same patch, that increases on hit effeciency effects by average 50% per hit as well as changing E Kayle spell to be On hit. This totally put her strength to the new disgusting level. Im confused about those few jungle changes, it gives to kayle just too big unbalanced power spike for how cheap it is (2250 gold). It does not take a lot of time to stack it up. River turtle gives already 2 stacks, assists gives 1, and 1 from large monster, average kayle player could stack it up till 25 minute. This is really disgusting item, making my Kayle champion too strong in the jungle and i dont like it at all. summoner 3 Im playing kayle on the middle, top or bot sometimes and play her AP or tanky bruiser (tf, bc, botkr etc), and if you ask me, she is not that all strong on the lane and hasnt been before patch either.

Right now, on PBE her early **base AD **has been reduced by 5 and this will not affect summoner 11 jungler kayle at all, it will affect more laner kayle, due to the fact her damage will get reduced by too big amount at first lvls. For somebody who is playing kayle and buy item 3057 shen on her early game, its a huge nerf, cutting her early game by a lot, about 20 damage early game. Its really a big deal for a champion that needs every piece of damage early game, because how much item dependant she is. This nerf will not change jungle kayle at all, because she is not hard to deal with in early game anyway and it has nothing to do with the power she gets after stacking up devourer. Maybe instead of this, you revert E change, and change it into spell effect multi-hit like it was before patch, so sated devourer will not occur her E twice every second AA. This change would be much better than nerfing kayle as the whole. It will also reduce the sick slow on the rylai item 3116 from 40% to 20%, which i think its also really disgusting stuff as well, for someone who played kayle before slowing somebody for 40% permanently is just too much, it leaves no counter play for a lot of champion without dashes... or summoner 4 on cd.

Riot keep in mind that, reducing her early AD will not affect her power spike jump with jungle item, but mostly touch the people who plays her in balanced way on the lane without jungle item!

We Old School Kayle players demand attention from you Riot, we want nice balanced champion, not the another broken pick or ban, which could be played ONLY IN 1 WAY.

Thank you. Sry for long post, here is your poro summoner 31

38 Comments

Slamurai Jack11 votes

I'll take the 5 AD nerf. It's better than gutting her scaling like thay did the last time which made her nearly unplayable for a while.

GG Noob Team17 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pRqoVEb4,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-08-08T19:11:19.910+0000)

I'll take the 5 AD nerf. It's better than gutting her scaling like thay did the last time which made her nearly unplayable for a while.

The thing is, they will not stop at 5 ad nerf, they will continue it till jungle kayle get guted enough. This will not affect jungle kayle as it will affect lane kayle.

They are going to nerf and nerf and nerf her endlessly until jungle kayle get balanced and lane kayle unplayable.

FantasySniper13 votes

Actually, it affects jungle Kayle much more than it would laning Kayle.

Laning Kayle last-hits at a slightly later timing? Ok. It also reduces her AoE damage by the slightest, making it less likely to miss other CS, so it sort of balances out besides for the small effect on champion damage. Jungling Kayle doesn't restrain herself nearly as much, and missing out on that DPS hurts her clear speed, which also means she takes more damage. On top of the small effect to champion damage.

GG Noob Team5 votes

{quoted}

Actually, it affects jungle Kayle much more than it would laning Kayle.

Laning Kayle last-hits at a slightly later timing? Ok. It also reduces her AoE damage by the slightest, making it less likely to miss other CS, so it sort of balances out besides for the small effect on champion damage. Jungling Kayle doesn't restrain herself nearly as much, and missing out on that DPS hurts her clear speed, which also means she takes more damage. On top of the small effect to champion damage.

Jungle kayle has no problems at clearing the jungle anyway, even with 5 ad less, she will get her devourer and spread terror, like she does today, even when smashed early, she will kill everybody in few hits later on, this is sick. The problem is that, how she scales with this item and this is ridiculous, and needs a fix.

They should do same thing as they did with master yi, passive just does not work with devourer and everyone is happy. Should happen to kayle as well, since 5 ad is just a nasty nerf to lane kayle. Trust me, this nerf will be really painfull for a champion that is based on auto attacks. With shen and 4 attacks, she will lose 25+ damage in early game, this is a lot. In fact, she will be no longer capable to fight with competitive top laners, and at least toplane kayle will remain worse.

FantasySniper5 votes

She can't clear as fast. Meaning less gold for her, so her scaling will be reduced. Meaning Devourer will be purchased later, she will be Sated later, and she'll be less capable of killing not only because of the damage nerf, but also because she loses more health from clears.

Meanwhile Laning Kayle only has to worry about its small effect on her kill potential.

Carniverous3 votes

It's not the last hitting that the 5AD hurts. Did you not read the item 3057 example? It's about kill power in lane and trade potential.

FantasySniper1 votes

I mentioned champion damage.

Carniverous1 votes

I know you did, but I saw "Laning Kayle last-hits at a slightly later timing? Ok." As if the 5 AD would do nothing to laning Kayle. So you left me confused as to what exactly you meant in your argument.

FantasySniper1 votes

Yeah, "champion damage" is definitely not the right term, I know.

Slamurai Jack2 votes

I don't think so. I honestly think they only reason she's getting this nerf is to get people to shut up about her and stop banning her. They'll probably nerf Shyvana too, although she won't have deserved it either.

Sammystorm8 votes

I will be honest I clicked the thread for the pic.

Xela Syab1 votes

{quoted}

I will be honest I clicked the thread for the pic.

same

Reformed Dunni8 votes

Kayle doesn't need a nerf sated devourer needs to be removed

ScreamPaste5 votes

I can't think of a way to properly discourage her as a jungler when Sated Devourer exists, because Kayle will always want it, short of just making her incapable, which would clearly hurt Lane Kayle pretty badly.

The problem is Devourer, not Kayle, this nerf is pretty rough, are they at least compensating her with scaling AD?

Thryale1 votes

I could see riot changing her E from a buff that applies on hit effects, to a single aa enhancement buff on a really low cd that applies on next hit effects.

Lower the cost, decrease the cd, increase it's dmg/range, give it a special effect. I dunno

NemeBro4 votes

I agree, there are better ways to balance Kayle.

Rework her.

Demon at Sword2 votes

I was actually considering this too, there isn't necessary any hard rework but just a lot of tweaks or maybe light rework, for example: **- changing coldowns on W to scaling ones - worse in early better in late

  • Q should remain same, nerfing it would kill this champ, buffing it would make her beast
  • Passive... well I would prefer something more active something for bursty purposes rather than shred
  • Ultimate is ok (maybe range buff would be nice)
  • Main thing is E, it doesn't need any change in damage numbers but in its utilities, first of all it should be more visible and it should be multi-hit spell activated with primary hit (similar to on-hit but not really behaving like on-hit) -> this means 20% rylai slow, no devourer no hurricane, but still good with nashors, wits, lich etc... -> this means patch 4.11+ wasn't necessary, if they did only this change and kept her 40% AP ratio in E she would be in fact nicely balanced, she got nerfed only cause of item 3085 - again all of champion's builds got nerfed cause of one item synergy... isn't it easier to remove that item synergy??**

TL;DR my idea is: Remove E and Hurricane/stated devourer synergy, add 10% more AP to E (making it 40%) and change spell type to decrease rylai slow - this would revive good old item 3124/ item 3146 builds without making her op or so.

AAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH4 votes

I love playing Kayle too. Might not have played her for a few seasons long, but I've got a fair idea of what I'm doing with her. Anyway, I don't build lichbane on her (although against squishys it sounds really good), but when you take in account that lichbane takes in the champions base AD, that is a big nerf. Also, I think they've intentionally made MasterYiYi's Double Strike passive unable to proc off of Sated Devourer, so why not have the same thing on Kayle's E? And I agree that Rylais item 3116 is just unfair on her. I like building it on her with a liandrys to melt tanks, but 40% does feel like too much. With the 2 actual problems on Kayle, I really don't want to see my support/jg/top/mid in the top bans. The nerf right now won't really solve much

GG Noob Team3 votes

It wont solve much, but get kayle worse to play in balanced way and this socks Riot.

If you could listen to community, just do that 1 small change on E, so it will stop ramp on kayle.

AD nerf will affect lane kayle farming potential and last hiting potential as well.

Titanium703 votes

Well.. i guess Kayle need´s a Full-Scale-Rework, Riot is not able to balance her, and every single change she get, directly or indirectly let her swing between OP and UP.

I really love this Champ and her Aether Wing is one of the most amazing skins in the game, her melee-range playstyle is great and on paper she has so many interesting build paths (as On-Hit, APC, ADC, Hybrid, Support). IRL she´s gutted periodically to a point only the most abusive and toxic build is playable and anything else sucks in comparrison...

Demon at Sword2 votes

I would agree with rework, but next thing is how it would be like. The rework I demand shouldn't change her playstyle much, it should completely prevent her from jungling and make stronger on lane + opening more build possibilities. Here is my rework idea: Passive: Gains bonus attack damage equal to 15% AP and gains AP equal to 40% bonus AD, doesn't stack with itself. Q: Same W: Scaling cooldown, AP ratio decreased to 30%, added 40% AD ratio - movement speed still AP ratio only E: Same damage, same cooldown, more visible and fancy vfx, same function but no longer on-hit type, which means no item 3085 item 3931 anymore, what about finally getting item 3146 item 3124 item 3078 or even item 3100 ?? **R:**Same

Titanium701 votes

OH BOY! + 9000 xD

Yep something like this would be exactly what Kayle should be! I used builds like this on Old Kaye, sadly DFG-LB was always stronger. q.q

But i guess as long as Tri-Blade exists we´ll never have viable Hybrid-Builds, doenst matter its Kayle or Jax or even Udyr

Inphernal2 votes

"River Turtle" stopped reading

Solaxo2 votes

Manga fanart. Original.

Terchio2 votes

What I don't understand is why they made it every 2nd attack. It made that jungle item stronger than any possible counterpart, and moved on-hit strategies almost exclusively to jungle, or at least with Smite. Instead it should be every 3rd or 4th attack, and if it's still too weak for some reason, maybe add a phantom AD amount to it, like 50% total AD.

Demon at Sword2 votes

Dear riot, nerf item 3931 not Kayle is that hard to understand? Well i feel like riot doesn't like its tribunal symbolic champion, why? She is getting nerfed since season 3 every few patches which makes me sick. Instead of this they buff yet more unbalanced champions. If champion is "OP" because of one item it is not reason to nerf champion but reason to nerf item, this item made on-hit junglers more broken, champions good with this item will get nerfed and champions who wont use this item wont take it which means those champions will be playable only in jungle and only with one specific item which completely denies RIOT's statement when they said: "We want more strategic diversity" well this item ruin your "strategic diversity" Solution? Leave Kayle alone and do something with item 3931. Riot please, don't kill this champ again, we all know how much dead she was back in season 4. Or if you like item 3931 then just simply remove E and item 3931 synergy. Kayle is not natural jungler, she should get even more buffed for lane but nerfed in jungle in my opinion.

**So in my opinion this champion needs these changes:

  • Removing E and item 3931 synergy
  • Changing E to multi-hit spell so item 3116 will do only 20% slow and noobs will stop complaining about slow.
  • Update E vfx to be more visible and fancy (for all skins)
  • Old passive which gave AP from AD and AD from AP would be nice to greatly increase her item pool without making her "OP"
  • DON'T DECREASE HER AD
  • Give her W scaling cooldown and decrease mana consumption**

~Prydath

GG Noob Team2 votes

Its pretty sad, they are IGNORING the OBVIOUS fact that only 1 ITEM makes some champions clearly unbalanced. But woho, lets nerf the champion to the ground and then nerf the item, so we leave the character completely unplayable for entire years! Because of 1 FUCKING jungle ITEM.

Demon at Sword3 votes

I want Riot games inc. to notice this post, I don't want to say bad things about this company because they run the most played game world which is not easy but I want their opinion on this balance thing. I want to know why they hate Kayle so much, she is in fact their creation so there isn't reason to hate her from their side.

~Prydath

GG Noob Team2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Demon at Sword,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pRqoVEb4,comment-id=00120000,timestamp=2015-08-11T08:20:12.235+0000)

I want Riot games inc. to notice this post, I don't want to say bad things about this company because they run the most played game world which is not easy but I want their opinion on this balance thing. I want to know why they hate Kayle so much, she is in fact their creation so there isn't reason to hate her from their side.

~Prydath

They hate her, because community from bronze hates her as well. This is the spirit. People who does not know how to deal with her, call her op, when in higher tiers, people just dont go all in vs her, use their abilities properly to not force kayle to use ult. So she is being out dealed by a lot of champion even including zed, could smash her into the ground, whatsoever she is a counter pick against him.

Demon at Sword1 votes

In my opinion she should get nerfed somehow in jungle but should get even more buffed for lane, like increasing Q AP ratio or adding some bursty mechanics which simply wont work with devourer.

As I said many times before this champ definitely needs these changes: -Scaling W cooldown -More bursty damage (reworking passive mechanics, add more AP ratio to Q) -Removing E and devourer synergy -Or even removing E and Hurricane synergy in exchange for burst buff.

FlynnOFlenniken1 votes

I didn't read, but I upvoted for the cute picture.

magic pole1 votes

tl;dr: Veigar .

sp4411 votes

Honestly, Sated Devourer really needs a nerf right now, it's just way too damn powerful when compared to the other Jungler items.

I mean, just making on-hit effects deal 25% less damage on the phantom hit would already fix the issue. And maybe make the crab only give one stack.

Carniverous1 votes

As on off note. How do you feel about ADC Kayle?

And could you tell me more about the Bruiser Kayle please?

I like ADC Kayle because of how much unseen damage she can actually bring to a team fight. item 3031 item 3153 item 3071 item 3087 item 3085 1: Getting multi stacks of Statik Shiv is great, and appliing the first on hit effect of your E, as little as it is as AD. Her E gives up to 40% of her AD total as magic damage around her first target. As where item 3085 gives 50% on two other targets. Kayle is green, she recycles AD. Everyone knows Botrk procs on it too.

Black cleaver changes are pretty great. Up to 30% pen, plus her natural 15%, makes for great damage on all targets. It also helps AD heavy teams keep going though people, but works best with an AP assassin, that less people will build MR against. Hopefully.

I can't really take Kayle bot lane, despite me saying ADC. Since, she can't even farm when she wants. And she pushes the lane when ever she tries to from safety.

Monsta Moo1 votes

You say they should nerf the item, they already started nerfing champs over hitting the item. They likely won't stop hitting champs until someone, hopefully, sees this thread. At which point they will have to go back and buff up the champs thy nerfed, which they probably won't do then, as they tend to get a bit lazy with a subject after awhile.

Bisaknosp1 votes

lol they shouldnt nerf her at all they should nerf the item... this way lane kayle will get nerfed

TenSlashTen1 votes

How about remove devourer, it's disgustingly overpowered.

Demon at Sword1 votes

-refresh Still waiting for dark themed Kayle skin, lane buffs and devourer nerf/removal.

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