Conqueror's + Infinity Edge=40% True Damage?

DW Diana·May 2, 2018·1 votes·3,305 views

Just wondering about how these two things will interact. For example, a Yasou with Phantom Dancer and new Infinity Edge has 100% crit chance. Say he does 1000 damage (I know it's unlikely at this state, but this is just for the simple maths :P)

Option 1: Stacking 1000 - (20% Conqueror's) = 800. 1000 - (20% Infinity Edge) = 800. 600 Base Damage +400 True Damage. In this case they both stack on top of each other giving a full 40% true damage.

Option 2: Non-Stacking (1000 - 20% Conqueror's) = 800 - (20% Infinity Edge) = 640 Base Damage + 360 True Damage. In this case one takes effect then the other meaning a 36% true damage (still REALLY high).

Am I the only person that sees having Yasou have 100% crit chance AND 36% - 40% true damage from just two items as a problem? How many other champions could abuse this same thing (though to a lesser degree). Feel free to list them in comments.

12 Comments

ColteMay 2, 20182 votes

what good is armor now right? lol [slayer-jinx-unamused]

DW DianaMay 2, 20182 votes

{quoted}

what good is armor now right? lol [slayer-jinx-unamused]

That did come to mind lol...

RatpieMay 2, 20181 votes

{quoted}

what good is armor now right? lol [slayer-jinx-unamused]

This^^

It already feels like any armor in this game is made out of paper. Cannot wait for these changes ...../s

Dead flag bluesMay 2, 20182 votes

"TANK ARE TOO STRONG BECAUSE THEY DEAL TOO MUCH DAMAGE"

"LET'S GIVE EVERYONE TRUE DAMAGE SO ARMOR IS USELESS AND NOW THEY DIE IN 2 AA"

"BUT THAT'S NOT THE ISSUE"

"WHO CARES ? MORE DAMAGE"

"REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE"

DW DianaMay 2, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dead flag blues,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pPXyca0J,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-05-02T10:21:33.641+0000)

"TANK ARE TOO STRONG BECAUSE THEY DEAL TOO MUCH DAMAGE"

"LET'S GIVE EVERYONE TRUE DAMAGE SO ARMOR IS USELESS AND NOW THEY DIE IN 2 AA"

"BUT THAT'S NOT THE ISSUE"

"WHO CARES ? MORE DAMAGE"

"REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE"

Thank you for that insightful comment... i think.... ?

saltranMay 2, 20181 votes

Muh tank meta

jocomotionMay 2, 20181 votes

Don’t forget item 3036 and item 3033 are going to reduce total Armor instead of bonus Armor

Critmaster GarenMay 2, 20181 votes

yasuos crits deal 190% damage and not 200% if im not mistaken.

Fourtunate SonMay 4, 20181 votes

Regarding your equations, you have been calculating the new infinity edges damage as 20% of the TOTAL damage is converted to true damage. This is not the case, however, as the infinity edge states that it converts 20% of CRITICAL STRIKE damage. Proof: https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-m9w_BuyKSp4/WukGY_fzINI/AAAAAAAA-nM/b1yZbirLwEMDl-XBqSBJZO_f-uqrlHTtgCEwYBhgL/s320/infinity.jpg (Image taken from Surrender@20)

Unless I am mistaken, this would change your calculations to:

Option 1: Stacking 1000 - (20% Conqueror's) = 800. (1000 / 2 Crit - 20% Conqueror's) + (1000 / 2 Non-Crit) = 900. 700 Base Damage +300 True Damage. In this case they both stack on top of each other giving a full 30% true damage.

Option 2: Non-Stacking (1000 - 20% Conqueror's) = (800 / 2 Crit - 20% Infinity Edge) + (800 / 2 _Non-Crit) = 720 Base Damage + 280 True damage. In this case one takes effect then the other meaning a 28% true damage (not quite as high).

Also, this (Infinity Edge) true damage might also be reduced by a Randuin's Omen Passive (20% reduced crit damage).

To round up, lets keep the people complaining about Armor being useless with this quick thought:

As well as this change, all Zeal upgrades' prices are increased by 200g.
Lord Dominik's Regards and Mortal Reminder's gold costs are up by 200g, and AD down by 10.
Only buff being Armor pen changed from bonus Armor to total Armor, which still doesn't make the nerfs viable. These changes mean that armor pen is not going to be standard for ADCs, so true damage may not be terrible. Also, these are still tentative, possibly unbalanced, PBE changes.

TL;DR: Its not terrible, but each to their own.

SgtMadmonkey

DW DianaMay 4, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Regarding your equations, you have been calculating the new infinity edges damage as 20% of the TOTAL damage is converted to true damage. This is not the case, however, as the infinity edge states that it converts 20% of CRITICAL STRIKE damage. Proof: https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-m9w_BuyKSp4/WukGY_fzINI/AAAAAAAA-nM/b1yZbirLwEMDl-XBqSBJZO_f-uqrlHTtgCEwYBhgL/s320/infinity.jpg (Image taken from Surrender@20)

Awesome that you missed the Yasuo with Phantom Dancer and IE bit. He has 100% crit chance.

Unless I am mistaken, this would change your calculations to:

Option 1: Stacking 1000 - (20% Conqueror's) = 800. (1000 / 2 Crit - 20% Conqueror's) + (1000 / 2 Non-Crit) = 900. 700 Base Damage +300 True Damage. In this case they both stack on top of each other giving a full 30% true damage.

Option 2: Non-Stacking (1000 - 20% Conqueror's) = (800 / 2 Crit - 20% Infinity Edge) + (800 / 2 _Non-Crit) = 720 Base Damage + 280 True damage. In this case one takes effect then the other meaning a 28% true damage (not quite as high).

Thank you for working it out without the example champion I used. Yes that looks right for a non-Yasou champion with 50% crit. gj :)

Also, this (Infinity Edge) true damage might also be reduced by a Randuin's Omen Passive (20% reduced crit damage).

To round up, lets keep the people complaining about Armor being useless with this quick thought:

As well as this change, all Zeal upgrades' prices are increased by 200g.

Lord Dominik's Regards and Mortal Reminder's gold costs are up by 200g, and AD down by 10.

Only buff being Armor pen changed from bonus Armor to total Armor, which still doesn't make the nerfs viable. These changes mean that armor pen is not going to be standard for ADCs, so true damage may not be terrible. Also, these are still tentative, possibly unbalanced, PBE changes.

Yeah, I wasn't complaining about it against tanks, just in general its a bit silly. I'm a mage main, nothing better than knowing that yasuo and assassins are being given buffs while we are getting nerfs. Oh and don't forget Lord Dominik's Regards and Mortal Reminder's were changed so that they would do more to squishy champions. Yey for us! We already have to stack hp in our items to survive, while buying seekers. Nice to know it's pointless to resist the trend.

TL;DR: Its not terrible, but each to their own.

SgtMadmonkey

Yes, for some it IS terrible. It was meant to be a nerf to adc's, instead it barely touches them and buffs champions that didn't need it. This isn't me crying about losing, I have a good winrate and do well against Yasuo and Assassin's, it's just as a malz main I'm wondering why riot keep on kicking him. This is the 8th change this season that will hurt him. The 6 direct nerfs weren't enough?

Fourtunate SonMay 4, 20181 votes

I feel that you're misinterpreting my statement. I understood the fact that you were referring to Yasuo with IE and PD. What I am trying to say is that I see the new IE as dealing 20% of the bonus damage caused by a critical strike to become true damage, not 20% of the total damage. Therefore if a crit deals 200% damage, the true damage will deal 20% true damage and 180% physical damage, instead of your interpretation of the IE dealing 20% of the base (non-crit) damage as well as 20% of the crit damage (so practically double).

1000 - (20% Conqueror's) = 800. (1000 / 2 Crit - 20% Conqueror's) + (1000 / 2 Non-Crit) = 900. 700 Base Damage +300 True Damage.

When I refer to crit and non-crit in this I am speaking of the (bonus) crit damage and the base attacks damage, not if you would or wouldn't crit. This would invalidate your previous conjecture, as I did in fact work off 100% crit chance:

Thank you for working it out without the example champion I used. Yes that looks right for a non-Yasou champion with 50% crit. gj :)

Regarding your concerns over mid laners: I agree that it may have been overlooked (the fact that total armor means squishies are gonna be blown up easier) but on the other hand, squishy champions are more prone to being affected by crits rather than +-30 armor shred. Both this armor shred itself as well as critical strike chance itself are harder to get hold of (more expensive). The way the current adc changes are, ADC powerspikes' are later in the game (with a few exceptions), allowing more time for mages to have an impact (as opposed to the current zeal upgrade + IE powerspike ADCs have, that continues to endgame).

My personal thoughts on malzahar - although I am not a malz/mid main (and therefore this is probably biased) - he actually got a slight buff in 8.9. Bear with me here:

Malzahar got mana regen/early max mana buffs (like most other mages)
Malzahar has some of the cheapest - and most powerful - wave clear tools in the game.
Due to mana regen/DRing changes, most midlaners cannot keep up with Malzahar's waveclear.
Unlike most mages, Malzahar has the capability of restoring up to 12-14% of his maximum mana per wave using Malefic Visions (E). This allows him to keep pushing waves for much longer than most midlaners in the current seasons.

Again, this is all hypothesizing, and it may end up completely differently on release (40% true damage may be likely). But these forums were made for discussion, so discuss I do!

(Sidenote: I did notice a fair volume of disdain in your responses, and as much as I am used to it - it is LoL after all - do realise I in no way am trying to one up or belittle you, merely contributing to the discussion)

SgtMadmonkey - Sorry for the long messages!

DW DianaMay 4, 20182 votes

{quoted}

I feel that you're misinterpreting my statement. I understood the fact that you were referring to Yasuo with IE and PD. What I am trying to say is that I see the new IE as dealing 20% of the bonus damage caused by a critical strike to become true damage, not 20% of the total damage. Therefore if a crit deals 200% damage, the true damage will deal 20% true damage and 180% physical damage, instead of your interpretation of the IE dealing 20% of the base (non-crit) damage as well as 20% of the crit damage (so practically double).

When I refer to crit and non-crit in this I am speaking of the (bonus) crit damage and the base attacks damage, not if you would or wouldn't crit. This would invalidate your previous conjecture, as I did in fact work off 100% crit chance:

It says Critical strike damage, not bonus damage

Regarding your concerns over mid laners: I agree that it may have been overlooked (the fact that total armor means squishies are gonna be blown up easier) but on the other hand, squishy champions are more prone to being affected by crits rather than +-30 armor shred. Both this armor shred itself as well as critical strike chance itself are harder to get hold of (more expensive). The way the current adc changes are, ADC powerspikes' are later in the game (with a few exceptions), allowing more time for mages to have an impact (as opposed to the current zeal upgrade + IE powerspike ADCs have, that continues to endgame).

Yey for having both in one then? PD + IE + Last Whisper (newly redesigned to screw over squishies!)

My personal thoughts on malzahar - although I am not a malz/mid main (and therefore this is probably biased) - he actually got a slight buff in 8.9. Bear with me here:

Malzahar got mana regen/early max mana buffs (like most other mages)

Malzahar has some of the cheapest - and most powerful - wave clear tools in the game.

Due to mana regen/DRing changes, most midlaners cannot keep up with Malzahar's waveclear.

Unlike most mages, Malzahar has the capability of restoring up to 12-14% of his maximum mana per wave using Malefic Visions (E). This allows him to keep pushing waves for much longer than most midlaners in the current seasons.

This much we can sort of agree with! Yes the changes make his mana sustain actually about the same (not really a buff early as you go from 11 mana per minion to 7 plus dorans ring regen), I've been maximizing on this by getting a Sapphire Crystal at the start (13 mana per ping) to maintain my mana pool long enough for a lost chapter first back.

BUT, downside, the changes really benefit mages/midlaners that can clear waves AND harass at the same time, or just AOE the wave down in one or two spells then regen from dorans (Lux, Xereth, Vel'Koz etc) which means the voidlings die, which means your Malefic Visions doesn't pass anymore, which means you don't get the mana back (another reason for mana crystal, doesn't take much farm to get a tear and TP back to lane).

Again, this is all hypothesizing, and it may end up completely differently on release (40% true damage may be likely). But these forums were made for discussion, so discuss I do!

We can but hope.

(Sidenote: I did notice a fair volume of disdain in your responses, and as much as I am used to it - it is LoL after all - do realise I in no way am trying to one up or belittle you, merely contributing to the discussion)

Sorry it seemed like you were ignoring most of the post. It turns out you just miss-understand the item. Like I said before, it isn't 20% true dmaage from your BONUS crit damage, it's from the crit damage. All of it. It has been tested. As a Game of Thrones fan: "It is known."