Why towers are less effective even without being weaker

BobaFlautist··25 votes·1,136 views

Riot has made a number of direct changes to towers to specifically make them weaker/juicier targets - and I think their decision-making gets the appropriate amount of scrutiny for it.

What nobody seems to talk about are the indirect changes that have also reduced their relative power, so I'm gonna make a quick list of everything that comes to mind that has weakened towers without actually making the actual towers weaker:

  1. Armor values have gone up and shields are stronger and more common A tank used to get something like 30 armor per five minutes and boatload of hp (with roughly equal MR), now it's not uncommon to see a tank at 20 minutes have 200+ armor. This is a natural result of games being shorter, riot changing tank items to favor resistances over hp, and mr being repeatedly de-emphasized in favor of armor. With the now common repeated shields from supports, tanks can soak a lot more sustained, slow physical damage than they used to be able to.

  2. More champions can reset tower aggro Fizz used to be absolutely despised for his unique tower-diving potential - he's still despised, but it's not so unique anymore. Zed, Ekko, Elise, Zac, Kled, Kayne, Aatrox...all (relatively) newer champions with the tools to reset tower aggro, which used to be a rare gift.

  3. There's more cc and burst It used to be that you had to be super careful diving someone with cc or tank stats, as they could slip away and dance around while it took you out. Now something like 3-5 chanpions per team have hard cc, and it's much easier to just chain it and keep a target completely helpless as you burst them under tower, even a tank.

  4. There's more mobility Mobility gives a lot of power in tower dives, as it both helps you stick to your victim if they try to kite around, and it gets you out with taking fewer shots. Especially someone like Zed, Ekko, or Elise that can dive on top of you, unload their rotation, reset aggro, and jump on you again or back out as needed, it can make the whole endeavor a lot less messy. To be fair, Fizz always had this option.

  5. People are better Despite what people say, towers can take and deal quite a bit of damage - if you let them. My feeling is that they playerbase, all the way from the pros to the bronziest of bronzies, have steadily improved in mechanics and game knowledge. Juggling tower aggro used to be a high risk, flashy play along the lines of making a Baron play, even for the pros. Now I see junglers in silver expertly dancing in and out of aggro range with their top lane to execute flawless dives, the mid-lane Lee Sin insec out from tower has become a staple instead of the signature move of the best player on the champion, and four man tower dives bot are mroe common than not. Do people fuck up dives still? Definitely. But I think everyone better at them.

23 Comments

Jaygo417 votes

Honestly the most egregious one is the tower dropping aggro aspect of SO many champs' kits. That shit needs to be removed

LordGeovanni7 votes

armor values gone up item 3075 100 armor - 75 armor item 3110 100 armor - 90 armor item 3143 80 armor - 60 armor item 3068 50 armor - 60 armor

Wolfeur14 votes
LordGeovanni2 votes

too bad i cant upvote twice..... wait thats half the reason i have a smurf

BobaFlautist1 votes

{quoted}

armor values gone up item 3075 100 armor - 75 armor item 3110 100 armor - 90 armor item 3143 80 armor - 60 armor item 3068 50 armor - 60 armor

Dammit. Tfw you mean to press cancel, but you accidentally hit post.

Anyway, that's interesting, I didn't actually look into the raw numbers myself before posting, I based my analysis on my memory rather than numbers.

What I think is the case, though I don't have time to actually check, is that the meta builds for tanks include a lot more armor than they used to.

From what I remember, thornmail usually wasn't taken on tanks until fairly recently, as it disencentivised the adc from hitting you and you wanted the adc to be hitting you. I also remember the general consensus being that 150 of each resistance and 3k hp was plenty of tank stats and what a tank really needed was auras/utility.

Back in the day a tank build was usually something like aegis, locket, shurelia's , etc. Randuins was kinda the Rabadons of armor items, you didn't get it until you had your other bases covered and even then it was a luxury pick you got if you really needed your armor boosted.

These days, tanks stack armor items like there's no tomorow because of all the physical damage in the game. So even if the raw values we're higher I think tanks are buying more armor items than they used to be, and their armor tends to be higher than it used to be.

LordGeovanni2 votes

I didnt look into the numbers of anything but sunfire cape because i suspected something was up there. i know the rest because i mained fighters and to a lesser degree tanks and tank supports from i started the game in season 2. next we will get into how magic resist items all dropped magic resist and health items did the same but tanks became more and more op while mages are gimped as per the trend of the boards using lower ap items but not taking into consideration that they have more cdr they have more % ap on item 3089 but they dont want to build it because mah 45% cdr and not taking into consideration that defensive items got worse versus both ad and magic resist and both again and true damage with the health nerf.

LordGeovanni2 votes

You arent completely wrong in season 4 and 5 adcs and mages kept getting subtle buffs to all their base stats health and armor included. It just didnt effect tanks or fighters the ones you are mainly targeting.

NineTailedMystic5 votes

I say just make towers unaffected by Penetration again.

Kloqdq5 votes

I would love to see towers get some kind of buff. Been far too long.

Devilreaper XIII4 votes

riot should never haved messed with towers :/ i litterally see players dive in at lvl 3-6 tank 5+ hits and a full combo from q to r and still take a kill or 2 and walk away with 50% to 60% hp @.@ i'm mainly talking assassins/fighters/tanks marksman/mages still have some difficulty tower diving.

LordGeovanni3 votes

tanks may be able to tower dive by level 6 but they backed before and started some items before then no way tanks diving on their base defenses and even if they do they arent bringing the damage. No way assassins have an easier time tower diving than marksmen and mages they have range to hit some one all the way under a tower from the outer edge. an assassins may get to there target better but its more likely that they will die at the same time

BobaFlautist1 votes

My experience is that marksmen and mages have the ability to poke and harass under tower more than assassins, but it's much harder for them to secure a kill against a cautious player than assassins.

Obviously I mean Ekko, Zed, Fizz, etc. Not the roamy sneakers like Evelyn, Kha, Talon, they might be about on par with mages/adcs, depending on the dive.

Devilreaper XIII1 votes

{quoted}

tanks may be able to tower dive by level 6 but they backed before and started some items before then no way tanks diving on their base defenses and even if they do they arent bringing the damage. No way assassins have an easier time tower diving than marksmen and mages they have range to hit some one all the way under a tower from the outer edge. an assassins may get to there target better but its more likely that they will die at the same time

seju doubles her base defense early seju with over 200 armor^^ mid game seju with over 400 armor^^ late game seju with over 600 armor^^ blitzcrank has a shield, nautilus has a shield almost every tank has a way to increase def by ability and truth be told towers really don't hurt them :/ and they do bring damage, their abilities are practically if not completely on par with every other champ just add the cc on it and they have a kill secure @.@ its not just tanks but sub tanks as well....

when you step out of a mage his or her range you get away, poking from outer edge is not tower diving^^ assassins can jump in and dash out, zed shadow, talon wall jump, fizz untargetable and dash, kassa void tele, yi invic, shaco free flash with invis and clones, yasuo dash, lee dash, leblanc clone, nidalee can lunge which is a form of dash, khazix jump, akali tp.

some assassins gain movement speed like teemo, rengar, evelynn and nocturne, which makes diving riskier, except for nocturne since hes a tank.

some assassins block damage or cc like pantheon, yi and fiora.

and xin zhao being unique gains armor and mr based on hits -.-

on top of that most assassins have ranged abilities and can just as well poke from afar, zed shuriken, talon blades, fizz shark, kasa void balls and wave, shaco shiv, yasuo nado lee ball, teemo is marksman, rengar shackle, evelynn spikes, nidalee/pantheon spear, khazix void spikes, akali kama and leblanc is a mage .o.

but towers are just weak overall O.o, so instead of messing with champions, riot needs to buff towers in my opinion.

LordGeovanni1 votes

note Blitzcrank has a sheild that only does anything if you build an item out of item 3070 . while i always take tear on blitz crank no matter where i play him so i can make use of his passive that is pretty far from the meta

Devilreaper XIII1 votes

{quoted}

note Blitzcrank has a sheild that only does anything if you build an item out of item 3070 . while i always take tear on blitz crank no matter where i play him so i can make use of his passive that is pretty far from the meta

it works even without tear O.o not sure what delusion you created there.... being tanky with a shield extra is pretty good even if you dont have ap...

LordGeovanni1 votes

great big 150 shield on 2800 hp tank taking 500 damage shots each hit

Pumping Iron2 votes

#lasertowers

Devilreaper XIII1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Forearm Strong,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pIp4EElZ,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-08-16T11:02:10.506+0000)

#lasertowers

we already had was a complete failure XD

LordGeovanni1 votes

nope lazer towers were stronger than these towers if you stayed under it for 2 seconds. It did nothing versus leblanc fizz and zed which is mostly why it was scrapped in my opinion. and the fact that they were only on base towers

Devilreaper XIII1 votes

{quoted}

nope lazer towers were stronger than these towers if you stayed under it for 2 seconds. It did nothing versus leblanc fizz and zed which is mostly why it was scrapped in my opinion. and the fact that they were only on base towers

no it was a failure because it was dps, not on hit, when someone tower dives they usually get about 3-5 hits, but with these beams it was dps, meaning if one would tower dive they wouldnt get the same damage cause it wouldnt follow up out of range like those balls would, and it just didnt look intimidating AND the damage would increase per second so it was easy to reset the damage done.

commit an hero2 votes

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Turret

Let's also talk about how long it takes for inner and inhibitor turrets to scale up. Most games aren't even lasting 30 minutes let alone 46.

Noblewind1 votes

Damage is fine, early game a tower hit is still a big deal.

Health wise they are too weak IMO. They need to take more time to go down. It feels awful dying top lane at only 20 ish minutes and having the enemy top laner able to solo take 1.5 towers before you can even get back under your inner tower with homeguards. IMO that shouldn't be a possibility, buffing time it takes to take towers down would add meaningful counterplay in a lot of these scenarios.

LICENSED HOOKER1 votes
  1. There's more cc and burst

this

More from Gameplay

More by BobaFlautist