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Let's discuss the Talon rework

Shaydrox··3 votes·1,021 views

What's up guys, I'm Shaydrox and I've mained Talon ever since season 2. I thought I'd quickly write my thoughts on his rework, since it changed him quite a lot and I'd like to discuss a bit.

So to get started: his new passive. His new passive is a billion times better than the old one, it is quite significant and it changes the way you combo with him as well. You have to proc this passive, it's the largest source of damage you have throughout most of the game, so not proccing it means you won't get kills. It's fun to play with and fits his W and Q a lot, so I like it.

His Q now has some more gameplay to it as well. Using it as a dash or as an up close nuke is an important decision to make, as the first can leave you without enough damage, and the second can get you kited if used too early. The dive + stab looks cool and fits Talon a lot, so again I am a fan of this change too. Only complaint might be that the dash often feels like it lacks some range, but perhaps I still have to adjust a bit to that.

His W is now a legitimate skillshot. The old W was very easy to hit, but did extremely poor damage earlygame, this new one actually does a lot but it's trickier to land. This is imo again a pretty good change, now he takes more skills to play and gets more reward early on. I hoped the cd would decrease, but it's now still 9 seconds (1 less than the 10 before) which still feels a bit long in most teamfights but that's ok. Definitely a good change in addition to his Q and passive, the synergies are fun and interesting.

His new E is hilarious to use, no questioning that. However....it feels like it isn't as useful as most players anticipated. If anything, it might be the thing keeping him down. While it's true he's now more mobile than ever, his target selection is actually poor for an assassin. This part worries me, it feels there won't be many reasons for playing him if he's so much worse at actually killing people in comparison to Kha/Rengar/Zed.

His ultimate now feels a little bit clunky. One of the things I noticed is that if you use your ultimate while autoattacking, you do not gain the stealth and the blades will go into the target after the second delay. Problem is, since the blades hang in the air for that full second you're running around wondering why everyone can see you and why you're so slow, only to realise you never had invis to begin with. It feels a bit weird, not to mention the delay before your blades return can be quite the pain against mobile targets, but the addition of having the blades converge on a target you attacked is quite a cool change. The damage was nerfed by a rather significant amount, but the passive should make up for it.

Overall it feels Talon has become a rather unique champion now. The only issues I am seeing right now is the fact that adcs are able to burst as fast as he is now. While his damage is impressive and his new combos are more interesting, most Talons I've seen died to adcs rather than the other way around. Particularly his target selection is very poor, arguably too poor for an assassin, and his longer delays mean someone like Lucian or Vayne are not even worried about him at all. Thematically the rework is a solid 10 for me, in terms of gameplay and viability right now I'd say a 5. He feels like he could be great, but has some issues that make him mediocre at best, half of those caused by adcs being so insane right now.

So what do you guys think of Talon so far? Post your ideas and I'll read it all.

9 Comments

US Treasury2 votes

I really like the points you are making; I really like the P and W change and I think they really enhanced his identity; I also think that his target selection may be a little bit not dependable; oh and I hate it when I accidentally AAed someone which broke my stealth in ultimate (worst feeling ever) Like you, i give a solid 10 for the thematics, but in terms of viability, i think some part of his kit can be sharpened a bit.

Talon is one of my two-trick mains (besides Anivia) who (used to) help me won 70% of my games and reached Diamond in TW server and platinum in NA (at my peaks) (just not much time to climb after I am in College :/) here are some reflections of the many games I have played on the live server and the PBE.

=His earlier game QA is too reliable; like what Riot Stashu has said on the PBE board, I think the instant A after his Q could be adjusted, with its strength added to elsewhere in his kit, Otherwise, his laning, especially against melee champions, is way too binary and unfun for both Talon and his enemy. =His R feels lackluster right now; I understand that the intention behind its nerf is to tone down his aoe damage, but with the delay of R2 and his less reliable W, I think his R should have a more immediate impact. =His snowball potential in early/early-mid/later-mid game is still really high, but a little bit binary. =Talon falls of quite a bit in later late game (40+) where major teamfights happen. His damage toward his primary targets, in my opinion, is too unreliable for the risk he will be taking. =The trade-off of his Q in melee range or in longer range doesn’t feel significant in later games. His melee Q should reward good positioning from E even more.

Below are some interesting tinkerings I think will help him:

Q: =relax the instant A after Q in the early game (maybe scale it with his attack speed according to his natural attack speed from level 1 - 18) =slightly decrease Q’s base damage =make his melee Q’s crit scales with level: i.e 120%/140%/160%/180%/200%; by doing this, his early and mid game damage can be toned down a little bit; it also rewards Talon’s good positioning during his later game. =with a lower Q damage and a longer window for opponent to react, I really think Q should be turned back into a blink, as a blink will make Talon and his lane opponent more interactive, while still offering Talon’s opponent sufficient counterplays due to its short range and lowered damage. The blink will particularly helps a talon if he is behind, as it gives him way to outplay/dodge some primary projectiles that other midlaners have.

R: =increase R1’s base damage =increase bonus movement speed if R1 doesn’t hit any enemy champion. =significantly lower R2’s base damage, but add a scaling’s according to his enemies’ missing health. These changes reward Talon’s positioning during a teamfight, while also offering some decision makings to the time he is using his ultimate: do I want to get to the battleground faster but lose a chunk of damage? Do I want to use my R now where everyone is full health? This change also punishes relentless super-fed Talon jumping on someone during stealth, because he will lose a portion of damage without his ult, giving his enemies more room to react.

General: If he does get a damage reduction in early game: =buff his base movement speed a bit, maybe like 10 (345)

TLDR =Tone down early to mid game damage; but at the same time enhance his mobility tools to interact with enemy laner. =Make late game damage more reliable =Reward Melee Q more in late game =More impactful ultimate

Talon currently has a 43% winrate, according to OP.GG. While winrate doesn't mean much at this stage, it does show that Talon is different than before(a 53% winrate) which requires players to relearn him. Neverthess, once learned, I I think his early game damage will be abused, while his late game will still be not as reliable as some other assassins.

Thank you for reading this!

Shaydrox2 votes

Thanks for the response, you've got some good points. I agree the Q into AA is pretty darn fast, relaxing it a bit would be fair imo. His earlygame damage is rather good now, something Riot wanted to give him as it was always garbage, and the new passive/W work really nicely with it. His ultimate to me feels too lackluster, it would be nice to see the damage go up slightly as it's now not an instant double use (unless you AA which makes you vulnerable right away). His base movement speed nerf also feels to harsh to me, I'd like to see it go up to 345 again like you said.

One more thing I was thinking about is perhaps making his W slow 30-50% (10% less at all ranks) but increasing the duration by .5 seconds at all ranks. Could give him that little more oomph since he lacks stickingpower and has more unreliable damage.

Requiemsfire1 votes

I'm a mastery 6 Talon and I played him in the midlane as a reliable pick whenever I wasn't picking Anivia.

With the current iteration of Talon it kinda forces him to either roam or go all in on a midlaner at level 6. Due to the removal of his blink and the nature of his rather short ranged dash it has left him even more susceptible to being bullied out of lane as many mages possess directlional skill shots as Talon can no longer force them to respect his blink. However I do acknowledge his need for a rework and that he was indeed outdated as a champion design especially since he filled no respectable niche of his own outside of collateral damage with his ult.

Furthermore when it comes to late game team fights Talon falls off in the sense that the trigger for his passive gates delays his burst giving a larger opportunity for ADC's to turn the tables on him and his allies to peel for him which renders him useless due to having burned all of his abilities to get that one assassination. Also I do not think Talon's poor win rate is the result of more people playing poorly on him.

Shaydrox1 votes

This pretty much sums up his issues, great comment. I'm wondering, do you think he's too weak or not?

Requiemsfire2 votes

I feel like new Talon is weak relatively in the sense that while he can still be strong, snowball really hard and such, he's a risky pick in that the opponent ADC/midlaner pick someone with self peel abilities whether that be mobility or soft/hard CC, it can make playing Talon a lot harder. Furthermore there's the update which provided stronger support items and buffing the shield of Iron locket of solari as well as face of the mountain and Knight's vow which grants armour to your ally boosting their survivability. So the delay on your burst is crucial to whether or not Talon can succeed.

All in all, I feel like Talon's numbers might be in the right place but his overall identity as an assassin suggests he should build more bruiser otherwise risk being useless. He also doesn't have the tools to stick to a target outside of the slow on his W which is needed for his burst.

Shaydrox2 votes

I agree he has those issues, arguably the nerf they did to his base ms was too harsh. Adding significant delays to his burst and giving supports more ways to keep their adcs alive makes him feel so inferior to Zed now.....

US Treasury1 votes

Totally agree.

Ralanr2 votes

I agree. I think it's more that he drops off pretty hard in late game teamfights that leads to his poor winrate. He can't really catch anyone out and his combat mobility can only be used offensively (and it doesn't grant as much damage when using the mobility). Having his passive gated by hitting both his abilities and an auto do hurt his impact late.

What I've noticed though is that while his teamfighting is weak, his split push is crazy with a maxed W. Combined with his E mobility, he's pretty much impossible to catch when splitpushing. I also grab ghost instead of flash since his E can be used to escape combat, giving him some pretty good retreat speed.

US Treasury1 votes

{quoted}

I'm a mastery 6 Talon and I played him in the midlane as a reliable pick whenever I wasn't picking Anivia.

HOLY

LOL i pick Anivia whenever I wasn't picking Talon are you the twin I am looking for

I agree with you; I think Talon's late game is simply too not reliable compared to the risk he will be taking.

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