@Meddler - What do you currently think about Talon?

Shaydrox·Dec 12, 2016·31 votes·2,244 views

So it's been around a month since the assassin reworks came through, and I enjoyed them quite a bit. Most have seen some balance changes already, and some comments from Riot about those changes, some are receiving them as we speak. But since the first day I haven't heard any Rioters talk about Talon. He hasn't received any changes either. Yet his winrate remains at one of the lowest values ever, and all the pros are calling him weak. Scarra himself said he thinks the rework was good and he likes it way more than the old Talon, but his numbers need buffing.

So Meddler, or any other Rioter out there, can you please shed some light on what your current stance is on Talon?

48 Comments

MisterJuliaDec 12, 20168 votes

I think he needs more than buffs , his total rework need to be rethought, they focused too much on how to make him reach his targets faster without actually giving him anything to kill his target , like you're there u reached your target now what, how do you actually get in melee range of them before they escape you have no MS so they will outrun you and you can't dodge skill shots cuz of the MS again and you have no gap closer exept for Q wich is a death sentence if they have cc and if they don't they can just walk away from you when you Q them since the w slow won't apply untill the w is coming back and it is more than easy to dodge , and honestly even if you land all of your spells you can't expect to kill anyone with that weak damage ,and this is only in a 1v1 situation, in a team fight you are completely useless might as well let your team 4v5.

serenity7Dec 13, 20161 votes

yeah, its hard to get in melee range now. i liked how you used to be able to instantly appear behind the target.

ChaddyFantomeDec 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I think he needs more than buffs , his total rework need to be rethought,

"Boo hoo i cant just press all my buttons on someone for a kill anymore"

HazyCloud7Dec 13, 20164 votes

I feel like he wasn't properly compensated for the reduction in range to his gap closer and the fact that it is now a dash rather than a blink.

His passive feels really out of place in the kit of an assassin as well...in the laning phase it certainly might help you secure a kill in an early all in, but later in the game an assassin needs to have the capability to kill the backline and the passive doesn't really help him do that but it takes up a big part of his power budget and it's damage over time not burst, so an adc can very easily lifesteal to mitigate it.

Add that to how overtuned shielding/healing itemization is in conjunction with windspeaker's (looking at you redemption) and the fact that exhaust remains totally untouched even though nearly every assassin had their time to kill heavily, heavily increased and what you end up with is a bunch of struggling assassins.

Auz the RipperDec 13, 20161 votes

Personally I want grievous wound added to his passive so that ADCs can't lifesteal out of it. It's also thematic and it prevents any Balance problems that might come from trying to make the bleed outdamage lifesteal instead.

MagikarpIsBossDec 13, 20161 votes

His passive does do a decent amount late game, especially when full build or close it does about 1k damage.

FriusDec 13, 20163 votes

e feels so empty ,i bet if he was a new champion (overloaded) like camille ,his E granted passively armor pen or something just jump over walls with no way back ,and has huge 160 s cd at first lvls and in end game around 50s cd way back

lame gapcloser ,low range on Q low damage unless melee Q crit

W delay sucks donkey duck

R dmg nerfed by 120 base dmg for reasons.

XevestosDec 13, 20162 votes

What talon needs imo:

Bug fixes (some wierd wall spots make u flip in the air where u are standing etc.)
Base stat buffs
Some love tap for the jgl, maybe double heal on q kill on monsters (As someone who decided he will otp jgl talon that would be nice as jgl talon is a bit weaker then lane)

ShaydroxDec 13, 20161 votes

Honestly I don't want Talon to be buffed in a way that would help his jungle, it's not his intended role and I honestly believe he's better midlane since you can be more unpredictable with his roams. A jungler constantly roams around anyway, I don't think Talon would do great that way.

XevestosDec 13, 20161 votes

Well that's why I said love tap, lane talon still would be superior by a lot.

It's just some small thing for players that want to play him offrole.

Look at jarvan as example he is quite good in jgl and top lane, talon being a midlaner doesn't mean he cannot be efficient in his offrole as long as it's subbar.

Shaco my BFFDec 13, 20162 votes

He's good and bad at the same time. Just like Rengar .

ShaydroxDec 13, 20161 votes

He's noticeably weaker though in most cases, while I'm not a great fan of statistics they do support this.

MrWasjigDec 13, 20162 votes

I can only speak anecdotally here (forewarning) But I've personally had a real good time with the new Talon. I recall trying to play old Talon and struggling with is pattern, and while it is mostly the same I'm finding I've had better success (admittedly this could be chalked up to being a better player in the meantime).

That aside I've tried most of the assassin updates, and Talon is the only one I enjoy playing. I remember really looking forwards to Katarina's rework because I've had a jolly fun time playing her in the past, but after I tried her for several games I utterly loathed the changes for a number of reasons (that deserve their own post just to go over them). I would consider Talon's rework a success, his win rate not withstanding. Reason being is because it still feels very satisfying when you successfully land your combo and get someone's bleed on, even more so given it's more difficult to pull off.

Still I agree with some of the points already brought up in this thread, such as slower gap closer, the fact his gap closer is now a dash, the far far slower burst speed etc. And it's obvious he's under performing with that win rate. I can safely say I would be sad to see his new kit go, but if it means a better performing Talon that also maintains a healthier play pattern then I'd be all for it. (Also that hardcore parkour was a bloody fantastic addition to his kit, that's something I love in boatloads)

ShaydroxDec 13, 20161 votes

I don't think it needs to be reverted, it's fun and it could work. Right now however, his power is just too low to truly make it work, which is rather sad imo.

AkeneroDec 12, 20161 votes

I hope they buff talon, he's so fun right now XD

OneTrickZilianDec 12, 20161 votes

I think, I think he has knifes and he can hurt you if you are not careful enough.

Edge of DaybreakDec 12, 20161 votes

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/lle7GoIh-hey-meddler-its-time-again-for-a-talon-thread

I got a reply but don't hold your breath lol. This is season 3 levels of not talking about talon only now he sucks to boot. Maybe if he gets a skin to sell he will get a buff.

MunchCrunchLunchDec 13, 20161 votes

talon and fizz both need work. fizz is utter useless late game the champ does no fucking damage. talon is just usless after level 2 lmao.

SckullzzDec 13, 20163 votes

Fizz is in a great spot actually. He snowballs hard early and mid game, but kinda falls off late. That's the entire point of the trade off. Also, Fizz is op as DICK right now early lol if you're patient and bait our abilities/ults, that W active can half health anyone at level 2-3.

MunchCrunchLunchDec 13, 20162 votes

47% winrate says otherwise.

XeruonDec 13, 20165 votes

Yes because winrate is totally everything.

MunchCrunchLunchDec 13, 20162 votes

it is. why do you think people play ranked?. fizz isn't a complex champion. his winrate shouldn't be low.

TS MediaDec 13, 20163 votes

Say that to Azir, who never breached a 50% winrate had only got as far as, what, a 49% WR. Same as Kalista. They both got lynched.

Now, do you care to tell me that winrates are everything? Go ahead and refute.

MunchCrunchLunchDec 13, 20162 votes

azir and kalista got nerfed because of pro play. nothing else. fizz never sees any pro play. hes just bad. anyone that played fizz with common sense will tell you hes awful. his only hope of doing damage is landing a 200 mile ult and an empowered W. which is a fucking challenge. and he falls off around level 11. the damage amp he lost on his ult ruined him and W buffs aren't close to the nerfs tbh.

TS MediaDec 13, 20165 votes

Oh shit son, landing the biggest skill shot in the game must be damn hard!

MunchCrunchLunchDec 13, 20162 votes

when the enemy groups. good luck landing it on the adc because it will hit the tank 99/100 times

TequilaZombieDec 13, 20163 votes

Learn to flank. You're an assassin, you should be always flanking.

The DeckownerDec 13, 20161 votes

The problem with Talon is very simple.

What the rework gave Talon: Ability to get to the target. What the rework removed from Talon: the ability to KILL and STICK to the target before he gets killed.

I think his new passive is a huge issue, after applying 3 abilities to a target(RQW most likely) it is basically impossible to land an extra auto unless the targe just stood still while you were doing your thing. Also 2 second DOT is jusr stupid on an assassin. Leblanc gets to do huge chunk of instant burst after 1.5 second of set up, it probably doesn't take much less time for Talon toapply his passive, why then should it be a super long DOT? ADCs can just heal it off with 2 aa from warlords.

ChaddyFantomeDec 13, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Deckowner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Tx4iqnMQ,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2016-12-13T02:48:03.426+0000)

The problem with Talon is very simple.

What the rework gave Talon: Ability to get to the target. What the rework removed from Talon: the ability to KILL and STICK to the target before he gets killed.

I think his new passive is a huge issue, after applying 3 abilities to a target(RQW most likely) it is basically impossible to land an extra auto unless the targe just stood still while you were doing your thing.

See, the problem here is you are doing RQW.

try WRQ or W-W2Q R-auto. Hell even just Q-WR-auto is better than what you are doing.

Using your Ulti to initiate is boosted. You give up both half your W and R damage AND your only reliable means of defense via you Ulti invisibility by using it as a discount Rengar Ulti.

Not saying that Talon doesn't need a bit of love, but you are seriously not helping yourself here.

By using Q to proc your third hit, getting your passive off is basically impossible to mess up since your auto goes off automatically after your Q because it brings you into Melee.

The DeckownerDec 13, 20161 votes

Without ult + youmuus you can't really approach anyone with a mouse.

If you can get into range of W by...walking, your opponent is brain dead, that is just how it is.

ChaddyFantomeDec 14, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Deckowner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Tx4iqnMQ,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2016-12-13T20:43:51.027+0000)

Without ult + youmuus you can't really approach anyone with a mouse.

You have an ability specifically for flanking in your E.

Also, if you are using Youmuu's why do u even need you Ulti ms boost?

If you can get into range of W by...walking, your opponent is brain dead, that is just how it is.

Again, its called flanking. That thing Talon has been doing since release? You come in from the right angle using your E.

The DeckownerDec 14, 20161 votes

LOL flanking doesnt mean your target suddenly can't move to deny tour damage. Agin you are assuming your enemies are idiots.

ChaddyFantomeDec 14, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Deckowner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Tx4iqnMQ,comment-id=00060000000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-14T02:17:13.665+0000)

LOL flanking doesnt mean your target suddenly can't move to deny tour damage. Again you are assuming your enemies are idiots.

what does them having to move have to do with anything? you E over a wall and then u jump them. Do u have that much trouble placing your W?

The DeckownerDec 14, 20161 votes

They can SEE you flipping over the wall. They can straight up murder you. There is a reason why all the tp flanking champions in LCS either have strong aoe cc or is a mega tank.

Once again you are assuming your opponents are stupid.

ChaddyFantomeDec 14, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Deckowner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Tx4iqnMQ,comment-id=0006000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-14T05:23:17.361+0000)

They can SEE you flipping over the wall. They can straight up murder you. There is a reason why all the tp flanking champions in LCS either have strong aoe cc or is a mega tank.

What does it matter if they can see you flip over the wall when you flip over it at mach 12? The flip scales with your MS so if you have item 3009 or item 3117 instead of item 3158 like most are going (for reasons i do not understand) and pop Youmuus active, you will hop over it is half a second.

FriusDec 13, 20161 votes

he feels like the weakes assassin ,only Q to gapclose ,E only above walls his main gapcloser Q is only 550 range

gl reaching enemy .

most dash 700+

Teridax68Dec 13, 20161 votes

My thoughts on Talon:

I think he should be able to place himself behind his target, whether it be by letting him use E on enemy champions, or making his Q auto-vault him over his victim. The compensatory targeting change on his ult is kinda awkward, and it would feel better for both his theme and his gameplay to give himself that little bit of extra distance.
His innate has really low base damage. I understand it's to prevent him from going tanky, but it also means he needs a lot of AD from items for it to start feeling great, when it's meant to be the biggest reward in his kit. This might not even be something to be fixed on Talon itself, itemization itself needs to change so that squishy champions can't just go tanky and succeed, and there are still abuse cases (e.g. tanky Yasuo) or cases where champions have become too snowbally as a result of their dependence on item leads (e.g. Ekko, also Yasuo).
Talon could do with some better base stats, namely more base movement speed, but especially better health regen. His regen's among the highest in the game already, but I'd rather he traded off his Q heal for even better passive regen, which would naturally synergize with his roaming.
Shadow Assault probably needs some more work, or perhaps just buffs. It's the only part of his kit that was left largely untouched, and right now its damage feels weak, with its stealth often feeling a bit too short as well. Increasing the stealth duration with rank might just be enough, but I think it could be tweaked further to be more interesting, as it's not a particularly memorable ultimate, and often just serves as another gapcloser.

Unlucky47Dec 13, 20161 votes

I dont know what talon you guys have been fighting but his all in at level 2 can just burst you with ignite. Old talon at least had to wait till 3. Not to mention how you can jump over a wall next to someone and q crit them for 2/3 of their health. I don't see how the champions weak, just lack of understanding on how to play him

doubleguacDec 13, 20161 votes

Seems like another case where Riot might have loaded too much strategic mobility onto a champ, and ended up having to shave off a lot of the champion's core strengths to compensate.

New talon is sort of similar to Quinn and Reksai. All three champions can move around the map insanely fast and unpredictably. This lets them exert huge map pressure in the early/mid game.

The only way to balance that kind of pressure is to shave off a lot of their tactical strength. But the result isn't that fun, and is only effective if you abuse the hell out of their early roaming.

If you want a champ who can quickly pick off squishies throughout the game, there are better choices than Talon. Talon's unique strength is his passive. I just wonder if Riot will be able to balance that unique strength in a way that's fun and satisfying for talon AND his opponents.

SaiannaDec 13, 20161 votes

They are too busy nerfing Shaco

KoKobotoDec 13, 20161 votes

Yeah Talon has to RELY on his opponents being near terrain in order to reach his target. If they aren't he has to use his Flash,Ult,or Q in order to gapclose and if he uses that his damage drops SEVERELY. I think Rito should buff the jump range on his Q.

Also I think Talon is locked in a bit too long in his Q animation. After the damage goes off he is still stuck in animation for awhile, his old Q was an auto attack reset and acts very similar to his new Q but didn't leave him stuck in animation for as long. The only way I know how to cancel it is by doing an auto attack afterwards. Melee Q is kinda awkard.

ShaydroxDec 13, 20161 votes

The Q could use some cleaning up but I've noticed it doesn't happen all the time, sometimes the animation takes noticeably longer than other times. Oh well, guess we can only hope to see some fixes or changes happen.

MagikarpIsBossDec 13, 20161 votes

I feel like he needs some buffs regarding his ranged q early damage. At around lv 2 it is fine, but since you max W after like 3 or 4 points into it it feels like it does no damage. Though others call him weak, I think that other than that change he isnt so bad. Maybe its just cuz im a bronze pleb and my opponents are monkeys, but I can make him work early and snowball. What I have been doing is running ignite and at level one get like one W on the enemy for poke. Right when you hit lv 2, just w-q-auto-ignite and they die so easily. He might need some other changes though, because if you dont get that all in kill, you dont do enough damage at all later on.

ShaydroxDec 14, 20161 votes

imo his W needs a better ratio, the old one had a 120% ratio, this new one only 100%. Not to mention the old Talon had that 15% damage amp on his E, and his W was easier to hit, you'd expect the new one being more difficult and more rewarding but it's basically become more difficult and less rewarding....

LetsHaveBadIdeasDec 16, 20161 votes

After playing him some I'm not actually convinced Talon needs his damage increased. He's got the numbers he needs to put someone down.

Where he's suffered, and harshly, from this remake is in his reliability. Specifically in his ability to actually deliver any significant portion of that damage.

The short version is I think he needs more options to make some of his damage delivery more reliable. I think the big gains here are to be found in contingencies/interactiveness on the second half of his W.

For example, giving it the same function as his ult, where if he Q's in on the target while Rake is out, Rake returns immediately. But this might be too reliable, especially early game where it lets him WQ to very reliably proc his passive, giving him an insanely powerful all-in at level 2. A more reasonable idea might be that units (or perhaps just champions) attempting to pass through the fully-extended Rake animation cause it to immediately return.

ShaydroxDec 16, 20161 votes

I think his reliability being weaker gives more interaction, and I'd rather see his lategame damage go up. Currently it's less than it was before, and it also lost some of its AoE power, so I only think it's fair. I prefer an assassin with risks of not getting the kill if he messes up, rather than such a guaranteed burst combo with mediocre damage.

BakedLotionDec 16, 20161 votes

Untul they nerf is retarded amounts of escape potential, Id rather him stay weak. His E should NOT be allowed to be used in combat.Im fine with his roaming, but its impossible to catch him

ShaydroxDec 16, 20161 votes

His base movement speed is so bad, if he's not near a wall he might as well be a rock mobility wise. To be fair, he has good escape potential, but with the sluggish speed of his wall jump (compared to other assassin mobility spells) I have actually legitimately been chased down an entire jungle by a Vi untill she finally got within range to press R and then I exploded lol