Why aren't we nerfing Riven, Vayne, Zed.

GigglesO·Mar 17, 2019·92 votes·20,037 views

Nothing personal but... Plat+ Global Champion....Winrate....Pickrate...Banrate 52.9....28.1....28.7 53.0....13.8....50.1 53.3....15.5....20.0

Jinx, Ahri, Soraka, Nami, J4 are pretty honorable mentions too. Why do we allow such high pickrate champions to also enjoy high winrate? Whatever happened to the balance team that we got on this whole winrate and pickrate mean nothing balance strategy.

Also thought I'd mention its also not because you can just learn how to play against them. If Morde was high winrate I might be like Learn to kite. Riven and zed just dash to you and kill you too quickly.

I'd complain more about vayne but I don't see her. Its hard to complain about something you can't see.

Edit: link to data https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champions/

181 Comments

420 gramsMar 17, 201960 votes

They were chosen to be meta

SaiannaMar 18, 201916 votes

I don't remember times they weren't meta...

Sir SaltarinMar 18, 20195 votes

Then you must have some serius memory issues my friend.

Shiroe OkazakiMar 18, 20195 votes

Their always in meta. Especially riven they never wanna hurt her ever. Zed can maybe fall out if lethal items are weak. And vayne will always have potential cause its max hp true damage with no CD

TwitchInMyPantsMar 18, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Shiroe Okazaki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=p76qcNsv,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-18T13:38:51.339+0000)

Their always in meta. Especially riven they never wanna hurt her ever. Zed can maybe fall out if lethal items are weak. And vayne will always have potential cause its max hp true damage with no CD

I'm sorry but Riven was a onetrick champion that couldn't survive in pro play for years and was absolutely not meta

META - Most effective tactic available. Riven was not consistently META for years, she just could viably compete with specific meta matchups for years. Picking Riven has not been the META until recently when they released Spear of Brokjen and she's not even been a dominant force since she was released in S2 overtuned.

SuperTopLFBottomMar 18, 20192 votes

{quoted}

I'm sorry but Riven was a onetrick champion that couldn't survive in pro play for years and was absolutely not meta

META - Most effective tactic available. Riven was not consistently META for years, she just could viably compete with specific meta matchups for years. Picking Riven has not been the META until recently when they released Spear of Brokjen and she's not even been a dominant force since she was released in S2 overtuned.

Is that why there has been several riven onetricks in challenger every year every season on every server?

Riven has been meta toplaner EVERY year EVERY season and if she was not riot gave her 150 base dmg on R. Or 15 base dmg on Q+better scaling and all the other shit.

How is it riven is SO BAD AND WEAK FOR YEARS yet you can pick riven every game into every matchup and ALWAYS get challenger. Yet you cant do that with aatrox, shaco, singed, zed and a ton of other onetrick champions. Only ever riven. Strange isn't it?

This year FINALLY riven is so stupidly op people start to notice how piss easy this champ is. How her winrate rises DESPITE HER PICKRATE RISING. The high skill 5D chess big brain champion that needs THOUSANDS OF GAMES to just learn the matchups and another TEN THOUSAND GAMES to learn her fast Q combo and all the other bullshit riven abusers puke onto the forums.

But thank god every bruiser gets nerfed so we don't have to touch riven and oh wow who would have thought riven is still overpowered, because she is LITERALLY a broken champ.

SaiannaMar 18, 20195 votes

LOLs posterboys/girls never run out of meta. That's written in their definition so-to-speak. Even if META was about something that would counter them.. Sudden buff here, new item there, buffed a rune, nerfed the meta champion that opresses whatever posterboy struggles. And nerfing them? Yeah sure, but not untill at least half a year passes and nerfs are always, ALWAYS, very delicate, small, slow and careful.

It was done so many times. So maybe you have faulty memory here ;)?

Sir SaltarinMar 18, 20192 votes

I too love the selective memory of the Gameplay Boards

Keep it cutre, no wonder why the NA Boards are seen as a meme for the rest of the western lol community.

SaiannaMar 18, 20195 votes

You do understand all of this can be easilly returned to you, right? Maybe it's not "boards selective memory", but your selective memory going bonkers?

I've spoken about Riots bias regarding several champions LONG-TIME-FUCKING-AGO. Since something like S3-4, when Riot noticed strong relation to fastpaced high skill-expression champions being played more and them selling more skins. Also that was the +/- time when Riot started to add mobility-creep into the game. You know what changed since that time? Date and the pool of "too profitable to nerf" champions got slighly bigger.

It is not my selective memory. Oh and that "boo-hoo selective memory" argument was used in S6, S7 and S8. Change the tape.

HåneriMar 19, 20191 votes

and when was last time vayne was a relevant pick at worlds championships? bruh i always play vayne when shes good and you probably dont, dont test me on this shit.

man... even zed was trash most of last season, most challenger mids were playing a select group of champions, none of them being zed. the last fking time faker played zed or riven to much succes was like s3 lol.

SaiannaMar 19, 20191 votes

hyper-dueling-carries don't work as good in PRO play cause their powers are shut down by proper communication in teamfights.

The world of PROs is vastly different than the world of the rest of players.

HåneriMar 20, 20191 votes

and even in solo q vaynes is always "so good" at the beginning of the season, only to be irrelevant by the end. dont bet me cause that gonna happen again for sure this season

why would riot want vayne to be strong for a long time if they want to make profit. even if shes strong for a patch ppl complains. if anything less ppl would play when vayne is op. if they want to make more profit they buff ahri or lux or somethting, i dont know.

YumaS2AstralMar 19, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir Saltarin,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=p76qcNsv,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-03-18T13:19:16.485+0000)

Then you must have some serius memory issues my friend.

I don't know why you are being downvoted. Until the recent buff from Zed for example, he wasn't meta at all. If anything he was considered bad. Still being banned a lot due to having a kit that is frustrating to play against, but he was bad.

Riven wasn't all that good before Conqueror existed, and Vayne was deemed mediocre at best before her buffs.

Sir SaltarinMar 19, 20193 votes

I'm downvoted becauser this is the Gameplay Boards

Shadow ninja bad

Crossbow woman bad

Broken blade woman bad

I've been here enough to know what would happen but I dont really care.

AstrovertMar 17, 201932 votes

Everything you need to know about League

Watch a pro play game, announcer says "i just consider Zoe totally broken right now". "Watch as she can literally hold back an entire team".

When things are so broken even the announcers cant cover for it anymore.

MankeyMadnessMar 17, 20193 votes

{quoted}

Everything you need to know about League

Watch a pro play game, announcer says "i just consider Zoe totally broken right now". "Watch as she can literally hold back an entire team".

When things are so broken even the announcers cant cover for it anymore.

Games from last year don't count. Veigar is a bigger threat than her half the time and honestly has a way stronger kit in general

RequiemsfireMar 18, 201918 votes

{quoted}

Games from last year don't count. Veigar is a bigger threat than her half the time and honestly has a way stronger kit in general

Hell no. Zoe's effective range makes her so much more dangerous than veiger. While veiger E works as a good zoning tool, Zoe's sleepy trouble bubble travels through terrain and she can pick up sumonner spells in combat to use against the enemy.

epic style broMar 17, 201921 votes

All three of those champions are on my ban list. If I go top, I ban riven. If i go mid, i usually ban zed, but sometimes zoe. if i go adc, i always ban vayne. All three are overpowered

Daddy AntsMar 17, 201919 votes

Quoting this from my twitter.

This is what Riot Maple said to me on Twitter when asked about Vayne.

we don't have anything planned atm. She's riding close to the line where we'd need to do something small, but isn't currently crossing any thresholds that are calls for immediate action. She's definitely strong atm, but there will always be an adc at the top given the role"

Basically she's in the same boat as Jinx and Riven.

Close to nerf territory but not yet hit the "threshold"

https://i.gyazo.com/a0bebe66b458ed87fca97de223d5fcc6.png

Sir SaltarinMar 17, 20191 votes

I think that she will be nerfed on .7 for her growing pro play pressence, that's my guess.

Edit: wrong patch

Daddy AntsMar 17, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir Saltarin,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=p76qcNsv,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2019-03-17T22:36:40.250+0000)

I think that she will be nerfed on .6 for her growing pro play pressence, that's my guess.

.6 is 3 days from release.

It's locked in now.

Sir SaltarinMar 17, 20192 votes

Okay, I wanted to say 9.7

Skakdi ThokMar 18, 20198 votes

i read she selling skins so well we cant do anything about her

SaiannaMar 18, 20192 votes

I dunno what kind of black magic sorcery you used for Rioter to respond to your twitter, but would you like to use your wizard skills and send a message to Riot Jag (the dude that's about to butcher teemo with rework-knife) to maybe pull his head from "i'm too pridefull and smart to listen to feedback made from lowly creatures" metaphorical ass?

Would be super cool if you were to link my thread: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/qiFZgA1X-riot-jag-regarding-teemo-rework-feedback-suggestions

From the looks of it, each time Riot Jags opens his mouth/writes about anything about teemo, the furry ball only gets more nerfed.

Thanks :/

njoom16Mar 18, 201910 votes

One thing ive learned about the balance team is that they like edgy champions and they will keep overbuffing them,sadly.

HopeStartsWithUMar 17, 20199 votes

You forgot to mention: Sona, Vi, Udyr, Sivir, Morgana, Velkoz, Neeko, Reksai, Khazix. A lot of champions are above 52% with solid pick rates right now. They all need nerfs!!

GigglesOMar 17, 20196 votes

Some of those aren't as op as they might seem While they do have a heftyish winrate they aren't being played nearly to the extent of our other favorite to hate champs. I really wouldn't argue much against nerfing those guys either though.

Rock MDMar 17, 201916 votes

{quoted}

Some of those aren't as op as they might seem While they do have a heftyish winrate they aren't being played nearly to the extent of our other favorite to hate champs. I really wouldn't argue much against nerfing those guys either though.

"Yo these champions are high winrate and high pickrate too."

"Whoa bud these just don't fit the narrative, and I like them more, so they aren't as OP"

Just be honest, it doesn't have to do with solo queue winrates or you'd say shit like Udyr and Sona would be up for nerfs as well. It's about disliking how it feels to play against mobility and damage on the same champion.

GigglesOMar 17, 201912 votes

Umm Does sona have a 15% pickrate and banrate? No, I didn't think so.

I told you I wouldn't argue against nerfs, but they just aren't quite as op as the aforementioned.

Sewer SideMar 17, 20199 votes

GiggleO is an unapologetic Sona defender over the years, you’ll never hear them mention nerfing Sona.

3TWarriorMar 18, 20191 votes

Sona's kit is about as weak as it currently can be unless you nuke her utl's crowd control time or Q/passive damage

here I addressed some of the problems with current high win-rates https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/p76qcNsv-why-arent-we-nerfing-riven-vayne-zed?comment=0003000000000003

HopeStartsWithUMar 18, 20191 votes

If her kit is "weak" then she shouldn't have a good winrate with a solid player base. Case closed. There isn't much to a functionality of a kit. It brings you the sweet sweet victory screen? It works. Sona mains gotta get over themselves. She has the perfect enchanter kit.

3TWarriorMar 18, 20191 votes

her kit is weak, her combo that she has to burn all 3 spells to do is 400 + 100% AP and then lich bane unless she manages to space them in a fight; and that's if you're level 18

what's powerful about her are her ultimate, and the reliability of her spells. You can not miss any of her basic abilities and you can not miss her auto attack

let's do some math and say that she gets a lich bane proc on all 3 spells

4.5 seconds minimum (which would be impossible given the animation time)

base AD damage x 0.75 x 3 = 2.25AD ; lich bane damage 50% AP x 3 = 150% AP

2.25 AD + 410(magic damage) + 150% AP lich bane

let's say she has 1000 AP with a full build

1500 + 410 = 1910 magic damage + 2.25 AD physical damage in an impossible 4.5 seconds

100 AD = 225

#2135 / 4.5 = 474 dps interesting, this might be where some of her damage potential comes from, but that would mean that lich bane is a large part of the problem. It also assumes that the opponent lets her get close enough to auto attack repeatedly for that time

you can factor in another part of her passive that makes her deal 40% extra damage with her passive, so let's throw that in there just to see

(240 + 20% AP) * 1.4 = 336 + 28% AP . it added a chunk, but not much 96 and 8% ap to her overall combo

I suppose if we wanted to get technical, we could count that her Q splits in 2 to add 160 + 50% AP to a second target or that any ally that gets "tagged" by her aura can deal 30 + 30% AP on their auto attack once

this is getting very complicated

#here is a potential source of sona's power: the Q aura. 30 + 30% AP doesn't seem like much, but this at level 16 is on a 4.8 second max cooldown, 2.65 second if max CDR. A high level sona player would be better to ask about this

it's unlikely, but it adds up to potential damage of 120 + 120% AP for her allies to apply. If this is a persistent effect and not once-only, it would quickly rack up damage

we might have stumbled onto something that riot could use to affect her "hidden" power

HopeStartsWithUMar 18, 20192 votes

Those numbers are all nice and good and I understand where you are coming from... but these numbers are irrelevant on an enchanter. Her burst comes from passive combined with Q (and if you really wanna be one of those "supports" you can add lich bane to that too). Her kit is strong, she has damage/burst, she has heals, MS buffs, Debuffs and an AoE stun. What does she pay for all that? Durability --> Just like every other pure enchanter. Utility instead of durability. A weak kit wouldn't be played and would have a low winrate. Both can't be said about current Sona.

If you really want to deal damage and carry the game play Brand, Zyra, Lux, Velkoz botlane.

3TWarriorMar 18, 20194 votes

big difference between the pick rates and ban rates though

sona currently maintains an average pick rate (which is between 3 and 8% where 8% is meta and below 3% is below average)

she also has a 54% win rate. This is somewhat concerning, but her kit is about as weak as it can be already, so there must be something else influencing her. Could be the current meta picks, runes reforged, or any number of things

let's look at her ban rate: 0.4%

if we look at the next highest: Katarina and Fizz , they happen to counter a lot of what is currently meta and as assassins, their ban rate is fairly reasonable at about 5% and 3.6%

I don't know why nami has grown in popularity again, but I would have to guess it has something to do with how reliable her ultimate is. 20% pick rate, 3.4% ban rate

#let's compare them to other high pick rate supports

Thresh has a 27% pick rate, above average win rate and 27% ban rate (he's highly effective but his numbers are probably inflated a little because he's been crazy popular for years )

Morgana : 19% pick rate, almost 52% win rate, 40% ban rate. She has been buffed quite a bit and is currently a counter to a lot of meta picks, so I don't think i can render a fair judgement. Her ban-rate was high even before her update due to countering Pyke

Lulu average winrate at 49.9% , she pairs well with any team, 14% pick, 8% ban and is constantly picked to counter assassins or high-damage targets

janna: 11.1 % pick rate, 52% win rate, 0.9% ban rate

If we go to support-specific stats, things get a little more interesting with the only excessive ban rate being Morgana, which likely has to do with all of the above things I mentioned.

Pyke, the original cause of morgana's high ban rate only currently has 12% ban rate

haaaaaaalpMar 18, 20196 votes

Just a hunch but I think lolalytics winrates are across the board 1% higher than actual stats. Look at their winrate table and compare the win% and games played of champions above and champions below 50%. Also riot’s discussion about riven always pegs her winrate as 1-1.5% below lolalytics. That isn’t to say those champions shouldn’t be nerfed, they are all over performing even if you do adjust for the error, just a bit concerned lolalytics may be adding unnessary fuel.

Automated RivenMar 19, 20193 votes

Riven is enjoying a decent winrate right now, that's fair. However most of the people playing her have 85-90 recent games. The people who are averaging a 53% winrate are all riven mains. With the 1tricks hitting around 60 (assuming the online stats are accurate)

I am not sure about zed or vayne as riot didn't release the stats on them while Reddit was complaining.

Ahri BakaMar 17, 20192 votes

So idc about the rest , what kind of Nerf do you suggest on Ahri ?

Z3SleeperMar 17, 20195 votes

I think a power shift is needed. Land E -> oneshot isn't too cool. Her E already guarantees death if another ally is nearby.

Maybe make the E amp scale like this (4/8/12/16/20%) and then up E and W rank 1 base damage so laning is kept net neutral after this change (W rank 1 is typically only used during Charm in lane anyway)?

Charm is usually maxed last right now since there's no real reason to level it other than Charm duration (which isn't necessary since best CC is death).

Idk.

Ahri BakaMar 17, 20192 votes

{quoted}

I think a power shift is needed. Land E -> oneshot isn't too cool. Her E already guarantees death if another ally is nearby.

Maybe make the E amp scale like this (4/8/12/16/20%) and then up E and W rank 1 base damage so laning is kept net neutral after this change (W rank 1 is typically only used during Charm in lane anyway)?

Charm is usually maxed last right now since there's no real reason to level it other than Charm duration (which isn't necessary since best CC is death).

Idk.

That wouldn't help , I mentioned even with the Charm amp , her damage is already one of the lowest in mid lane

Ahri by no any means 1 shoots after landing E lol , she half of your HP , but that's literally her full combo , some champions can do much more by not even landing their full combos The thing is her full combo is easy to land , and it all happens after landing her CC ability

That's a class in the game and it's Burst mages , and Ahri isn't the only one Neeko Lux Annie are all burst mages as well The difference is they have more damage , better or more cc , but they don't have the Mobility she has

Land E -> oneshot isn't too cool

Well it isn't really 1 shoot , like I said , it's her combo and it's not enough to kill in early game she is designed like Annie Land Stun and get full combo-ed Lux Land Q and get hit by her full combo Neeko Land E and get hit by her full combo

Z3SleeperMar 17, 20191 votes

Yeah I really can't talk, I don't play Ahri. I just see them in my games and this is typically my experience.

Ahri BakaMar 17, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Yeah I really can't talk, I don't play Ahri. I just see them in my games and this is typically my experience.

Understandable :D

Charm has a 130s CD? Never knew honestly.

Pretty sure he meant her Ultimate , since her Ultimate has a very long cd and it's the only way for her to actually land a charm Otherwise landing a charm if she had no Ult only means it was a bad play from the enemy , especially if he got charmed from max range

However , I heard that the Glacial Augment build is the reason behind her high winrate Since she is too reliant on her Ult to land her charm , that slow from that Rune + items makes landing charm guaranteed which explains her having a high winrate , so I don't believe the nerfs should be directed to her since she is the only champion that made a use of such a useless rune

Rock MDMar 17, 20194 votes

{quoted}

I think a power shift is needed. Land E -> oneshot isn't too cool. Her E already guarantees death if another ally is nearby.

Maybe make the E amp scale like this (4/8/12/16/20%) and then up E and W rank 1 base damage so laning is kept net neutral after this change (W rank 1 is typically only used during Charm in lane anyway)?

Charm is usually maxed last right now since there's no real reason to level it other than Charm duration (which isn't necessary since best CC is death).

Idk.

Oh no, an assassin is burning a 130s CD to assassinate someone. That's just NOT COOL. >:(

You could complain about her mana costs making it too easy for her to shove in, you could complain about Ravenous/ToB offering too much sustain to a variety of assassins, and making them safer than ever.

But you managed to find the most brainlet reason to call a champion OP.

Z3SleeperMar 17, 20199 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rock MD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=p76qcNsv,comment-id=000500000001,timestamp=2019-03-17T22:25:58.860+0000)

Oh no, an assassin is burning a 130s CD to assassinate someone.

Charm has a 130s CD? Never knew honestly.

Calm down tho.

Kõišhì KómêíjiMar 18, 20192 votes

Ahri can't oneshot anyone with a E-Q-W combo unless she's 20/0 and at least 4 levels above someone squishy. She needs her ult along with ignite.

14daysuspensionkMar 18, 20192 votes

I can understand hating Soraka and Jinx but why Nami?

GigglesOMar 18, 20192 votes

So you know how some of the community has been complaining that tanks die too fast?

Well this might sound odd Nami is basically a ranged tank.... Riots definition of a tank is literally “reliable cc”. Her ultimate is great with a follow up q, throw your adc that on hit slow.

We really need durability back in the game so we can actually differentiate between builds, champs, roles.

Sir SaltarinMar 18, 20196 votes

Nami is not a ranged tank what the hell are you saying man.

She's strong on soloQ because she can in a braindead way win every matchup on botlane pressing W, just that.

GlaricionMar 18, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir Saltarin,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=p76qcNsv,comment-id=001f00000000,timestamp=2019-03-18T16:17:25.284+0000)

Nami is not a ranged tank what the hell are you saying man.

She's strong on soloQ because she can in a braindead way win every matchup on botlane pressing W, just that.

I thought Nami was strong because we're in a damage heavy meta and she's able to bypass being squishy due to her spells having extremely long effective ranges?

Sir SaltarinMar 18, 20192 votes

No, it's because she's a harder lane bully than Brand supp.