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"We're going to buff every top laner to Renekton's level." - Rito, 2014

Noraver··84 votes·7,349 views

-Proceeds to buff J4 and Malphite, and nobody else for the end of the year-

That was back in, what.. June? July?

Now that your precious Renekton isn't seeing play in top lane and making you #LCSBigPlays #LCSBigMoney, how about we buff some other champions now, hm? Since everyone apparently needs to hit Renekton's level, why not buff Garen for once? (His regen "buff" does not count; That does literally nothing for what he brings to team fights) What about Gangplank? Diana? Mord? Darius?

It's k, I'll wait 'til never to play them without being called a troll because Renekton's always going to be the king of top lane and must be viable in every meta and every season.

Next they're going to buff Shyv and Trundle so we can go back to that trio top.. Until they decide it's boring and buff Lulu to cancel it out again.

{quoted} Garen will not be allowed to be competitively viable because his kit is just too easy to play.

Ohai Trundle/Renekton/Shyv who dominated Season 3. What's that? The most popular picks are (basically) resourceless champions who just turn on their ults and run at the enemy team? Oh. Guess I should've thought more about how complicated they were to play. :|

156 Comments

Knight SoIaire 28 votes

garen got buffed gp is up for a rework

Noraver17 votes

How's Garen's team fighting now thanks to that passive strictly out-of-combat regen?

Jesus is Savior15 votes

{quoted}

How's Garen's team fighting now thanks to that passive strictly out-of-combat regen?

Teamfight -> get low -> run away -> regen health -> turn around -> run back -> clean up.

If my Rammus can do this with JUST a Warmogs, I'm sure Garen can do it MUCH MUCH more effectively. Where my Rammus would be going from 10% -> 50% and running back into the fight, Garen would be full again.

Rew7112 votes

Speaking of Rammus, didn't he also get nerfed?

Also, a list of champions I would like to play top lane but find it difficult: (in alphabetical order) Galio I use this guy middle lane Gangplank Use this guy in middle lane Gnar He's one of my favorite ADCs Jayce Also a fun ADC and middle lane Mordekaiser middle lane Nasus middle lane Nautilus middle lane (works) Shen support... Sion middle lane Skarner no where... Udyr easy jungle (and main) Volibear middle lane

I also agree with the Garen healing factor. Its very OP. Right now, I just hope he remains either untouched or just gets a very, very small buff.

Alistar is used for his Q + headbutt combo and his amazing heal.

Darius gets a stacking bleeding effect.

LeeSin gains double abilities with the Energy effect.

Renekton powerful abilities for no cost

Rengar nice abilities that get a nice power up for no cost (every so often)

Riven no mana

Rumble heat boost

Ryze the 450 champion that is still played

Shyvana what the guy said

Singed poison

Trundle best AS and fast tower destruction

Zed not sure where this guy should be but he just over powers Shen who's ultimate (is amazing but) will only get him out of bad situation, not deal needed damage for a top laner...

junglerboy166 votes

Alistar is used for his Q + headbutt combo and his amazing heal.

I laughed so hard at "amazing heal." I love playing Alistar, but he heals for almost nothing unless built full AP.

GloriousKaiser1 votes

{quoted}

I laughed so hard at "amazing heal." I love playing Alistar, but he heals for almost nothing unless built full AP.

It's great for pushing at towers.

junglerboy161 votes

I totally agree, but the ally heal is minuscule.

Miku Hime sama2 votes

Considering Sona's ally heal is the same base as Alistar's, I'd rather have an Alistar on my team. He can heal a lot more than 1 person at time, heals himself for double, all on a lower mana cost and it's more spammable thanks to its "reset."

GloriousKaiser4 votes

{quoted}

Teamfight -> get low -> run away -> regen health -> turn around -> run back -> clean up.

If my Rammus can do this with JUST a Warmogs, I'm sure Garen can do it MUCH MUCH more effectively. Where my Rammus would be going from 10% -> 50% and running back into the fight, Garen would be full again.

Too Bad Garen is a silence bot by lategame standards.

Bresn6 votes

He is extremely tanky and one ult will end a running carry's kill spree.

junglerboy166 votes

You must have never seen Crit garen at work. All he needs is IE and he starts to melt squishes fast. That leaves plenty of room for being tanky as well.

Budupops2 votes

gp has been up for a rework from his release but it has most likely been set back just like yoricks

Meep Man3 votes

{quoted}

gp has been up for a rework from his release but it has most likely been set back just like yoricks

I think Yorick may come first since Riot has put so much emphasis on Yorick being bad for the game. Gangplank is also decently viable after the ultimate change, just is clunky. However, Gangplank is definitely somewhere near Yorick.

Sooko22 votes

I don't think Renekton is the king of the top lane. At least nowadays he isn't. Right now he is just being kicked back by the kids he used to bully. People now prefer to bring range instead of hardiness and durability. You no longer build defense around your opponent, but around your own damage intead. Defense is meaningless and HP is a hinderance instead of a strength. Tanks are piñatas (someone else has the credit for this expression) instead of unbreakable monsters unless they have flat damage reduction. Tenacity is worthless and being glasscannon pays off a lot more instead of spending 15k of gold in armor and HP only for it to be completely ignored by the next Vayne/Ryze.

Hear them crying Rito! Olaf Darius Chogath Gangplank Garen Renekton Shyvana DrMundo Sion Trundle Udyr Volibear Yorick Zac

thePandev8 votes

{quoted}

I don't think Renekton is the king of the top lane. At least nowadays he isn't. Right now he is just being kicked back by the kids he used to bully. People now prefer to bring range instead of hardiness and durability. You no longer build defense around your opponent, but around your own damage intead. Defense is meaningless and HP is a hinderance instead of a strength. Tanks are piñatas (someone else has the credit for this expression) instead of unbreakable monsters unless they have flat damage reduction. Tenacity is worthless and being glasscannon pays off a lot more instead of spending 15k of gold in armor and HP only for it to be completely ignored by the next Vayne/Ryze.

Hear them crying Rito! Olaf Darius Chogath Gangplank Garen Renekton Shyvana DrMundo Sion Trundle Udyr Volibear Yorick Zac

I think that Yorick Cho and Voli should be taken off that list

Sooko11 votes

"Kite him guys!" - Kalista

Volibear loses 2000 HP before reaching anyone

Volibear - :C

Yorick is unfun to play against and needs a rework, but I have a feeling he is going to be made a lot more kiteable.

Cho is Cho, he unavoidably stacks HP, which only gives the enemy the upper hand against you.

TheI3igDaddy3 votes

Or you know, since Cho will always get bonus HP, you shouldn't just stack it with other items; build a ton of resists instead so he's tankier than everyone else with the same build.

Pocketbomb2 votes

I had literally forgotten there was a champion named Yorick. Now that I remember him I'm a little sad, so much promise, so little deliver...

Stephenizgod2 votes

Top Mordekaiser should be buffed... He is fun but the lack of CC and escapes gets you camped all game by enemy jungler. Morde>Vlad

Cindikle13 votes

Problem is that ranged took over top lane. They have to fix that first. Doesn't matter if they make 5 more top lane quality remakes or champs if Lulu/Swain/Azir push them out.

IMO most melee should be made manaless. Be given a new resource if needed. Balanced as needed. Suddenly having Olaf throw an axe at you every 8 seconds, slowing you, then diving you is a threat you have to take part of. Part of top lane's threat is that the towers are the furthest apart. Meaning getting dove is a threat. Currently ranged champions don't have to worry about this as much. Most of the melee top lane champion pool will go OOM trying or take too much damage to minions.

Junkο3 votes

Yep Renekton, Garen, Rengar, Rumble, Aatrox, Mundo, Riven and Trynd surely go OOM trying to kill minions.

All top laners that use mana can also clear minions without wasting much of it (the fact that most buy Hydra doesn't help). Jayce simply uses a Q, maybe E+Q to easily clear it, Darius Q+Hydra, Olaf uses W and with Hydra clears a wave while regaining a ton of health. Wukong, Yorick and few other exceptions exist but still.

Cindikle4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rainbowe Dash,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=p6eYbdJN,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2014-12-23T18:11:30.595+0000)

Yep Renekton, Garen, Rengar, Rumble, Aatrox, Mundo, Riven and Trynd surely go OOM trying to kill minions.

All top laners that use mana can also clear minions without wasting much of it (the fact that most buy Hydra doesn't help). Jayce simply uses a Q, maybe E+Q to easily clear it, Darius Q+Hydra, Olaf uses W and with Hydra clears a wave while regaining a ton of health. Wukong, Yorick and few other exceptions exist but still.

Yup that Lulu is just going to let those mana users waveclear for free. And they wont be behind at all by the time they get that Tiamat. Jayce is also part of that ranged problem. He doesn't need Q to safely farm.

You're missing the point. You're comparing champions with full items and skills who can waveclear quickly. The problem isn't when they get to that point. The problem is that they are pushed out of lane easily by some ranged champions.

If J4 no longer needed mana how would things change in top? He'd need a change right? -New resource: Morale. Every time you or an allied champion kills a monster, minion or deals damage to a champion J4 gains moral(less if done by an ally). Moral is spent when he uses his W or E.

Using his E too much in lane to gap close will mean he has a weak shield. Using his shield too much will mean his flag wont stay as long for bonus stats. His early game would require a balance of reading when to use these abilities. Using Q too much in lane will push the lane. But he has the tools to be a threat to anyone he faces as long as he times things right. Even if it's just to throw his flag on the enemy as harass. Later in the game should feel the same overall as waveclearing and damage to champions will be seen more. Biggest problem being when there's a downtime or your team is secretly taking Dragon/Baron. When there is little action these abilities are going to be quite week. Workarounds could be found to balance it.

Olaf is another one. People have said before he should work on Rage. Doesn't have to be the same as others. Make it so balancing an even Rage bar is best. One side granting bonus resistances, other armor pen. In the middle grants say 75% of both bonuses. He would probably see an increase to the early ranking CD of some of his abilities to compensate. Probably just his Q though as the rest of his abilities start out quite long already.

Dryditch2 votes

Just fyi, morale is the word you're looking for.

Moral, or Morals, refer to acting in a way that would be acceptable to others. Morale has to do with the confidence/contentedness of a group or individual.

AHeroNamedHawke11 votes

Change minion aggro if you want to help melee tops

Part of the reason you can't trade with ranged champs as melee is minions will generally ignore ranged if they AA you and back off quickly, while melee tank the full wave to do any damage unless they can instantly clear it or have ranged poke

SmokingPuffin10 votes

Riot has a pretty dubious history of following up on design decisions. The Renekton Bar is just one example. Riot has buffed many top lane champions since saying that, but Renekton himself is clearly no longer the measuring stick in top lane and bruisers in general are suffering in any lane. Except Irelia, she's always good for some reason.

Gangplank can't be buffed, kit too oppressive against other melees. Needs a rework.

Garen will not be allowed to be competitively viable because his kit is just too easy to play. He's intended to be a starter champion for people to learn the game on.

AbodyHUN6663 votes

Also I heard Morde would just be a manaless anivia and Darius needs his rework too.

Budupops8 votes

Urgot item 3070

Cale0177 votes

Garen just got a buff in the form of Warmog's buff. He can pretty much stay in lane forever if he rushes it.

You probably shouldn't be playing Jarvan in the top lane anyways. He brings much more to a team when used in the jungle.

GP's fine... he's not a particular power pick, but when I see a GP he pretty much always does well.

Malphite is supposed to be stupid strong. You can't stop the rock, dude.

Dryditch7 votes

Malphite THE BOULDER IS CONFLICTED!

No, but seriously... Malphite is amazing tanky until the assassin or ADC builds a Last Whisper. That's when you start wishing you'd gone pure AP. 500 Damage Q--1K on the ult alone.

I'd love to see him get just a wee bit of a MR scaling on his Q or something, so he's more viable in picks against AP heavy comps.

AbodyHUN6664 votes

God I hate it when an AP Malph bursts my team like some kind of awkward assasin xD

Dryditch2 votes

Ult over a wall like: "What up, I got a big rock!"

But yeah... It's always fun when I can one-shot a squishy with an ult... or ult into a teamfight, slow AS with E, and q the fleeing enemies for that triple.

RottedApples5 votes

Malphite : "At some point I am the equivalent of a semi truck T-boning a smart car."

Dryditch3 votes

Admittedly, I misread your comment. Made it about ten times funnier when I saw what I'd missed.

"At some point, I am the equivalent of a semi truck boning a smart car."

What Is Smite3 votes

Remember when mid-lane jayce was popular? Yea I stoned them all to death with AP bruiser mid, oh and don't forget the triple knock-up combo with Sion.

Blazemanexe6 votes

why not buff Garen for once?

They DID buff Garen, in patch 4.17:

Passive - Perseverance Perseverance is no longer removed by non-epic monsters at level 11 and above 0.4% maximum health per second at all levels ⇒ 0.4% / 0.8% / 2.0% maximum health per second at levels 1/11/16 9 seconds at all levels ⇒ 9/6/4 seconds at levels 1/11/16

I do agree though that top lane does need some balancing, and I'd love to see a lot more champions get buffed into viability. However, you do have to remember that it is a bit more complicated now, as Riot needs to figure out how to make ranged and non-ranged champs be able to survive in top lane together, without one of them crowding out the other. (Most people would probably say to completely take ranged out of top lane, but I think some champions work much better top lane w/ TP than they do mid (e.g. Kennen or Gnar))

I know Riot has tried accomplishing this goal some with a Doran's shield change, but they're not there quite yet.

Sisuwolf8 votes

{quoted}

They DID buff Garen, in patch 4.17:

Yeah but since then he's gotten nerfed.

Patch 4.20: Atma's Impaler -> Removed

SmokingPuffin7 votes

Riot needs to figure out how to make ranged and non-ranged champs be able to survive in top lane together, without one of them crowding out the other.

You hit the nail on the head. This is the elephant in the room.

Historically, the way top lane worked is that the good top laners had so much sustain that ranged tops couldn't poke them down. The thing is, that heavy sustain meta resulted in wet noodle fights where both top laners became immortal after getting their first big item and it just became a boring farm lane.

So then Riot tried nerfing sustain. This makes melee-melee interactions more interesting, but only a small subset of the melee champions are really built to lane against opposing ranged tops. Most bruisers just do not have the tools to solve this problem, and it creates big frustration.

I think there's an interesting lane in here somewhere. Certainly mid lane melee versus ranged lanes are fun. You don't feel like Zed or Yasuo are hopeless in lane against Orianna or Syndra. I don't know how we get interesting melee versus ranged gameplay up top without reworking a ton of bruisers, though. There's just no way to fight Quinn or Lissandra on even terms with Trundle or Volibear.

John Do35 votes

I have found that Sion actually can do well against most ranged champs. As long as your E targets the minions you can easily catch up, and most ranged champs are squishy enough that they take extreme damage from unloading the RWQ combo, with that E on a minion to keep them slowed. Also, Mid Lane is perfect for Sion as long as his enemy is not melee.

SmokingPuffin4 votes

[{quoted}](name=John Menagersson,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=p6eYbdJN,comment-id=000700010000,timestamp=2014-12-23T21:07:15.620+0000)

I have found that Sion actually can do well against most ranged champs.

I agree. I think this is instructive -- Riot's recent melee champion designs, whether it's Sion or Rek'sai or Yasuo, all have the tools to effectively contest a lane against a ranged champion. It's totally doable.

The problem, in my view, is the low outplay potential of bruiser kits. When you have a targeted gap closer, a steroid, and a cc, it's hard to do anything with that other than just diving the other guy and pressing all the buttons. To feel good in lane against ranged opponents, melees need versatile kits with the tools to make the opponent misplay.

ProfDrDeath2 votes

To feel good in lane against ranged opponents, melees need versatile kits with the tools to make the opponent misplay.

And in the same vein, a ranged partner in the interaction should not feel like he can't go into lane without being utterly annihilated - both sides need playmaking and mistake-making potential.

Irelia is one of the current examples - as much as I like to play her, one can easily see why people hate to play against her - just the combination of point&click gapcloser with point&click (hard) CC.

Ariel the Cruel4 votes

Don't forget the true damage and tenacity. Just in case you wanted to defend against her early trades.

Messaiga5 votes

Well, they recently buffed Jax. I'd rather them focus on the problems with penetration right now (people buying Last Whisper and Void Staff to make squishies squishier and make tanks feel useless). When I see a Zed bursting a tank that isn't Maokai or Alistar there is a problem.

EffectFX5 votes

Renekton was played in OGN not more than a week ago and did extremely well.

And trundle, renekton, and shyvana, while not overly complex are not as simple as garen.

Randomly buffing champions is not a good idea and I would prefer riot take their time deciding on what to do before doing it.

sebsauve344 votes

Except Renekton sucks atm. The real queen of top lane is Lissandra, the king is Gnar.

ChaoticPinecone4 votes

Garen is a hard champ to balance. He cant get buffed without a full rework. His only real problem is getting kited.

Garen has the problem of being too cost efficient. IE buffs his E. Defensive items are 20% more efficient, not including the active on his W. Health gives him insane regen. he is jsut too efficient of a champion to be buffed in his current state.

LordOfTheLeague3 votes

The problem with melee is that they need in fight mobility plus a gap closer or a dash out or a poke skill to not be plain beated by a ranged champion. As long as they are not all reworked to match this to be able to deal with ranged champs then no luck seing most melee champs in lane.

JadeKnightblazer3 votes

mean while.... item 3070 Aatrox item 3070

Linna Excel3 votes

Didn't riot nerf all the popular top laners after saying that?

AmightyT1 votes

Garen is in a much better spot right now, but he would be in an even better place if Riot was willing to address the viability of tanks (of course that would be troublesome to the ADC overlords so I doubt we'll see it).

plus Gp, Mord, Diana and Darius are all on the rework list so I'd imagine riot is going to ignore them until they have their new kits.

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