I remember Stashu said that. I do. I remember him saying because it would step on Brand's toes a bit.
But what has her kit turned into now?
Poison foe and spam Twin Fang
It's definitely unique, and no other champion in the game has any playstyle like that.
At all.
Seriously, change Cass.
Nobody likes her passive or her E-focused kit.
junglerboy1636 votesStashu was clueless, and that statement about Brand exemplified that fact. He had no clue what to do with Cass, and fell back on the idea of "oh, but this is more unique!" even though it was less unique than being a poison centric DoT serpent mage.
Zenthon Prime15 votesAll he really did, at the end of the day, was shift power from Q to E. None of her problems were fixed, really (such as her being an oppressive lane bully and E having no place in a DoT kit), and she got more boring to play. It was probably the one of most pointless and ineffective reworks in the history of League, right up there with Rengar's.
I maintain that the only real DoT mage is Swain. Cass is and was a one-trick pony that spams a single ability until the end of time.
junglerboy1612 votesI would Say Malzahar is a solid DoT mage (3/4 of his abilities apply DoT), he is just a little more bursty than swain.
Thryale2 votesproblem with malz tho, is that his greatest success case is 'burst'
you throw all your spells on the target and hope they die before or soon after yer ult wears off.
Old cass' success case was "spam Q and W till they're too low to win a fight" and her emergency case was "spam E till either my team saves me, they die, or I die"
Auz the Ripper2 votesRengar's rework at least took care of his splitpushing problem while somewhat preserving his feel
manbearswine3 votesAll he really did, at the end of the day, was shift power from Q to E. None of her problems were fixed, really (such as her being an oppressive lane bully and E having no place in a DoT kit), and she got more boring to play. It was probably the one of most pointless and ineffective reworks in the history of League, right up there with Rengar's.
I maintain that the only real DoT mage is Swain. Cass is and was a one-trick pony that spams a single ability until the end of time.
I don't know about that,sure the rengar rework solved nothing,but it did improve things,still is a horrible design,but after the rework a bit less so.
ChaoticPinecone20 votes....what do you mean "turned into now"? the big "rework" to Cassiopeia was mostly to her passive. the rest of her abilities just changed in numbers. pre rework she still did the same thing - poison foe and spam twin fang. except the poision did more damage and the twin fang did a little less.
Anrui4 votesPretty freaking much
kunkudunk11 votesYeah her kit really hasn't changed much honestly. People are just upset that you can't q then run for all your damage anymore in lane i guess. Even though plenty of other mages do the whole poke thing anyway.
Auryiel5 votesIt's a completely different play style...
Before the rework, you could play her as a poke mage who goes in HARD with great dps when she's ready. As far as I know, there's no mage that fills that niche now. All the other poke based mages rely on burst to finish people off.
Now you just go in all the time.
Terchio2 votesI don't completely agree with Cass rework, but...
What you describe is a champion who has both above average harass and finish. Where is the counterplay in that? I'm not a huge fan of that "counterplay" argument that keeps being thrown, but really, where does she balance out with such high values in both of those playstyles?
The more i see posts like this, the more I believe that Cass players just want their OP harass-artist back with generally no counterplay, kind of like old Ziggs. At least he had somewhat limited engage capabilities.
Auryiel3 votesWell, many things actually
What the Cass rework should have been was just number tuning to make sure she couldn't be a huge lane bully and allow her to scale better in the late game. Oh and all the fixes to shit like her E reset and ult detection tech. TBH you seem to over-estimate old Cass' poke and dps. What was truly nice was being able to do both depending on your build and what the situation called for.
Instead of preserving a unique, versatile mage they decided to promote a single play style that ultimately fails not only to capture the essence of the champion but also fixes none of her old problems. In fact, I would argue that they have introduced MORE problems, but that's a debate for another day.
Her rework was a failure and I'm afraid I'll never change my mind about that.
ChaoticPinecone2 voteseven with old cass, her Q poke never extremely effective to get kills in lane. her main damage source was always her E.
people always had different skill orders on cassiopeia. Max Q for poke? (most guides recommended this to just farm and scale) Max W for waveclear? (the Rain Man did this) Max E for damage? (some guides recommended this) not everyone played cassiopeia as a poke mage pre-rework, and not everyone has to play her as DPS mage now. the rework gave her the power to actually get some kills in lane if you maxed the E, but cassiopeia is not ineffective by maxing Q/W and sit back and farm for lategame.
Mortekaiser19 votescassio is now kind of like annie
she punishes fuckups brutally hard so you have to play perfectly
Darcade33344 votesvice-versa you have to play cass perfectly or you'll be punished brutally hard
junglerboy1650 votesBoth, actually.
Thryale2 voteswhich is why she's quite un-fun to play unless you already have 200 hrs on the champ.
TenSlashTen3 votesin what way is a champion with skill shots compared to a champion with 625 range Q+W+auto and 700+ range ult that is an aoe stun With her Q/W base being 240 at max rank so you can literally die to just base damage lol.
ULTRAF0RCE1 votesincorrect statement her ult range is 600 http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Annie
TenSlashTen1 votesThats fucking wiki you're using. The site where you can modify web pages to w/e you want. lmfao You're only counting the cast range not the actual hitbox being added onto that. The hitbox is the huge circle you have to hit with. That extends it to around 650-750 Its not 600 or she'd never be able to cast Q andW and R at the exact same time without moving.
So your little website is full of shit =]
IS1a442cd69a169ed293a394 votesThats fucking wiki you're using. The site where you can modify web pages to w/e you want. lmfao You're only counting the cast range not the actual hitbox being added onto that. The hitbox is the huge circle you have to hit with. That extends it to around 650-700 Its not 600 or she'd never be able to cast Q andW and R at the exact same time without moving.
So your little website is full of shit =]
And your source again?
BTW, according to "the fucking wiki", it is 600 range + 290/2 range (tibber's hitbox radius). That's about 745. It's a website full of shit anyway, so let's disregard this information.
TenSlashTen1 voteslike I said roughly 700. Im not gonna reply to people who use wiki as a source of knowledge rofl.
I still remember doing a project on how bad that website is back in middleschool like 10 years ago.
IS1a442cd69a169ed293a399 voteslike I said roughly 700. Im not gonna reply to people who use wiki as a source of knowledge rofl.
I still remember doing a project on how bad that website is back in middleschool like 10 years ago.
League of Legends wiki didn't even exist that time. Do you mean Wikipedia?
Anyways, Wikipedia is reliable when the page is filled with references. It's just like writing an essay. You can't really make anything 100% convincing, but you can support them with references. Wikipedia is not always bullshit.
IS1a442cd69a169ed293a3912 voteslike I said roughly 700. Im not gonna reply to people who use wiki as a source of knowledge rofl.
I still remember doing a project on how bad that website is back in middleschool like 10 years ago.
BTW if you want to challenge his citation, provide your own citation. You didn't even support your point with any evidence.
The Bíg Ticket14 votesIsnt Swain the DoT mage?
KING OF MASKS13 votesWhen I think DoT mage, Swain and Malzahar are the top two that come to mind. Brand barely qualifies. I mean seriously, 80% of his kit is burst. His one DoT is just a nice bonus that's required to land a stun.
I don't play Cassio so I haven't kept up with the Stashu scandal all that much, but if he seriously cited Brand as an archetypical DoT mage, he really is clueless.
Auz the Ripper4 votesOh, he did, he totally did
Awoof2 votesHe listed a bunch of mages he thought to be DoT mages of which none actually were. Seriously, he included Mordekaiser as well. (Funny enough, he didn't mention Swain)
2pudge1cup10 votesI've said it once and I'll say it again:
Stashu wasn't the root problem of this rework. He's an easy target to rag on because clearly he didn't have a goal/vision with this nor any idea how to execute it.
The real problem with this rework was riot management. They pushed through the rework in order to fit their little Shurima event rather than actually reworking champs that need gameplay updates. A rework just for the sake of a rework is never gonna work out well no matter which dev is at the helm.
straight4free9 votesI like Cass still. I don't understand what the fuss is even about, her rework provides her strength all throughout the game.
It kind of boggles my mind when people complain about the free CDR on Cass, when with the correct runes / masteries on her you gain 40% CDR at hardly any cost to you which gives you her exact former fighting pattern with the exception of an ultimate on a 60 second cooldown. Seriously, you can stun a gank and 1v2 reliably against many junglers and laners, and this is once a minute.
With the buff to her E to increase poison damage, you CAN max Q and get strong damage but while forcing engages. I haven't tried this build but I can see places it could work.
Her constant threat differs from how Urgot goes about this. An Urgot is very unlikely to land his E and not go in for harass, while very often a Cass will spend time poisoning their enemy laner from afar to gain advantage in a coming fight and to stack her passive. Two very different reasons for poisoning for Cass. One for Urgot. She has a heavier emphasis on position and the movement it requires than Urgot does because of her ult and Q buff. I understand the comparison but it isn't a very heavy one when it comes to play pattern.
Lord Dusteon6 votesI like Cass still. I don't understand what the fuss is even about, her rework provides her strength all throughout the game.
It kind of boggles my mind when people complain about the free CDR on Cass, when with the correct runes / masteries on her you gain 40% CDR at hardly any cost to you which gives you her exact former fighting pattern with the exception of an ultimate on a 60 second cooldown. Seriously, you can stun a gank and 1v2 reliably against many junglers and laners, and this is once a minute.
With the buff to her E to increase poison damage, you CAN max Q and get strong damage but while forcing engages. I haven't tried this build but I can see places it could work.
Her constant threat differs from how Urgot goes about this. An Urgot is very unlikely to land his E and not go in for harass, while very often a Cass will spend time poisoning their enemy laner from afar to gain advantage in a coming fight and to stack her passive. Two very different reasons for poisoning for Cass. One for Urgot. She has a heavier emphasis on position and the movement it requires than Urgot does because of her ult and Q buff. I understand the comparison but it isn't a very heavy one when it comes to play pattern.
Okay, this part annoys me.
Assuming 2 Q's, full duration (6 seconds). Assuming 3 E's (2 in first second, one at the very beginning of 2nd Q to keep the damage buff stacked). This also assumes rank 5 Q and rank 1 E. Q damage: 626.64 (1.2 AP). E damage: 165 (1.65 AP). So assuming you didn't max E, sure the base damage does more. But let's do the same thing, except rank 5 E. Q damage: 626.64 (1.2 AP). E damage: 465 (1.65 AP). So the BARE MINIMUM of E's to keep her poison amp refreshed breaks even with 2 max duration Q's damage wise at 359 AP. Assuming you can land ONE more E (which you should, since Q speeds you up) that AP drops to 7 to break even.
There is literally no reason to max anything except E, as the bare minimum E's to keep your damage amp up already easily overpowers the poison. Using any other E's (which her playstyle was forced into) almost instantly outdamages her poisons.
Elphrihaim1 votes[{quoted}](name=Lord Dusteon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JXJRa4pO,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2015-05-04T02:18:54.158+0000)
There is literally no reason to max anything except E, as the bare minimum E's to keep your damage amp up already easily overpowers the poison. Using any other E's (which her playstyle was forced into) almost instantly outdamages her poisons.
Max W first because it reduces the CD => can have lasting poison on creep wave, and have it up for when they all-in you
This means you can both waveclear with more mana -and- leaves your Q up for enemy harass / stack building
But both Q and E's rank ups feel useless to me.
I mean, TF gains 20 damage per cast, but the mana cost goes up really quickly too-- so maxing it forces you to play superpassive if you're low on mana, and you fall low on mana quicker
Q rankup has a similar issue.
I max W > Q > E because of this. :/
Abyssphere6 votesMax W first because it reduces the CD => can have lasting poison on creep wave, and have it up for when they all-in you
This means you can both waveclear with more mana -and- leaves your Q up for enemy harass / stack building
But both Q and E's rank ups feel useless to me.
I mean, TF gains 20 damage per cast, but the mana cost goes up really quickly too-- so maxing it forces you to play superpassive if you're low on mana, and you fall low on mana quicker
Q rankup has a similar issue.
I max W > Q > E because of this. :/
W literally gains 5 damage per second with the rank up. It is the definition of a one point wonder.
Elphrihaim1 votesW literally gains 5 damage per second with the rank up. It is the definition of a one point wonder.
I did say
"because it reduces the CD"
Which means a lot of things, but here, have an actual argument:
I mean; for sake of reference; the rank-up incentives:
Q gains 40 damage and the mana cost increases by 10 W gains 5 damage per second and 5% increased slow and the cooldown decreases by 1 second and the mana cost increases by 10 E gains 25 damage and the mana cost increases by 10
W gets 4 things, every other skill gets 2. >_>
However, it should be noted that:
However, all of this completely neglects Cassiopeia's AP scalings.
Admittedly, your damage-per-second is also a huge factor, but ranking Cassio's W/Q helps with that because of her E's amp.
Plus, ranking W makes it harder for you to get in a bad fight, because the slow gets stronger and becomes more accessible.
I haven't actually... done this math on maxing E.
With her E, the mana cost increases by 20% of the base per rank. If you max it by level 9 (first), then you pay 180% mana for 282% base damage.
But at level 9, how much AP do you have? Cassio's E has 55% AP scaling; and I'm pretty sure that if you factor that in you can see that her E gets less efficient for the damage per cast.
100/120/140/160/180% mana cost for 100/145/191/236/282% base damage. 100/120/140/160/180% mana cost for 55% AP ratio. This means that you need AP equal to ~82.73% of the base damage per rank. (~45.5%, the base-damage-increase-per-rank, divided by 0.55, the AP ratio) The base damage is 55. You need ~45.5 (... how convienent) AP per rank in order to equal the base damage increase.
:/ But then you get into the mana cost. You only get (1/0.83/0.71/0.63/0.55 * X) casts assuming you have the same amount of mana.
On the other hand, while it is even worse with W, you don't press W every ~second, which is true for Twin Fang.
iunno, I played a lot of cassio, I always found that ranking W worked better and ranking E made me starved for mana so I had to back an extra time which meant I lost XP and gold-- or I couldn't bully my opponent at all; or I couldn't escape from ganks (pick one).
With W max I didn't have any of those problems-- I did kill my opponent fewer times, but I died a lot less (if I did die during laning). Proportional to my opponent, I always had more gold with W max than Q or E max-- and I was closer to getting Aspect fully stacked with it, too. :/
The Queen Viper2 votesiunno, I played a lot of cassio, I always found that ranking W worked better and ranking E made me starved for mana so I had to back an extra time which meant I lost XP and gold-- or I couldn't bully my opponent at all; or I couldn't escape from ganks (pick one).
Well you clearly have mana management issues then. However after your first trip to base and back you should have a Tear, so your mana issues should be gone by then. Anyways, you say you have played a lot of Cass but with what account bro? You have zero games with her, at least with that account you are using here.
Rikari7 votesI thought Malzahar was the DoT Mage T.T 
TenSlashTen2 votesno thats the bro mage
theragingnerd8 votesI thought Malzahar was the DoT Mage T.T
hes the space aids champ
FirstSergeantBim2 votesNo, that's 
.
Z462 votesTeemo is the Minefield.
Myozthirirn2 votesGo away satan
Thryale2 votesmalz's kit is dot based, but his play style is still mostly burst. He typically drops a full rotation of spells on you and hopes you die before his ult wears off.
AxlStream5 votesI think Stashu made her less of a lane bully. Since you're forced into maxing E, your DoTs are not as oppressive and actually makes laning after 1st back much more enjoyable for the enemy. Sure your passive may be weird now but hey, for a DoT mage, have a passive that centers around poisoning enemy champions kinda makes sense.
Lord Dusteon13 votesI think Stashu made her less of a lane bully. Since you're forced into maxing E, your DoTs are not as oppressive and actually makes laning after 1st back much more enjoyable for the enemy. Sure your passive may be weird now but hey, for a DoT mage, have a passive that centers around poisoning enemy champions kinda makes sense.
Have you played against a Cass at all? If you get hit by any QW you take 1-5 E's to the face, which is pretty massive early game (350 damage with Q and then E spam at level 2, plus 3.2 AP). Having any of Cass's poisons on you now means you either run like hell or dive her and hope you somehow win the trade.
DemiluniS4 votesand then if she didn't killed you she's getting oom...
KING OF MASKS1 votesWhat the fuck? Brand is a DoT mage? Since when?
JustMyBassCannon1 votesSince his creation. His passive applies a %HP DoT to all of his spells.
Yes, he also has massive burst damage--one of the top 5 champions for burst rotation potential--but when he's not going all-in, he's a burst+DoT mage.
KING OF MASKS3 votesTo me his passive does not qualify him as a true "DoT mage" -- it doesn't hold a candle (if you'll pardon the pun) to either the damage dealt by Brand's actual abilities or the amount of damage over time that can be applied by the likes of actual DoT mages like Swain and Malzaguy.
Brand's passive is just a nice bonus that fits with his fire theme. He's not played as a DoT mage and he shouldn't be cited as one.
JustMyBassCannon2 votesPuns are always accepted.
And yes, I will agree that Brand is far more front-loaded burst than DoT-focused, especially when compared to Swain, Malzahar and even Fiddlesticks. While the DoT is core to his playstyle--and had been the reason I've ensured at least a third of my kills as Brand--his DoT doesn't really scale, making him more of a burst mage with a core DoT than a DoT mage.
