Topic says it all, really. With each new champ that has more readily available knockups (knockup being Riot's new favorite thing because I guess they hate tenacity) Yasuo's ultimate gets that much stronger. This is especially relevant with Rek'Sai now, who can easily get into a team burrowed and then unburrow to knock multiple people up if they're standing closely enough.
Im so bad yuck14 votesTo be fair, it simply increases the amount of champions you can pick in a viable team comp that has Yasuo, nothing else. Not to mention Riot stated somewhere that they use knockups because they feel more powerful than stuns, iirc.
Direwolfiez6 votesNot to mention Riot stated somewhere that they use knockups because they feel more powerful than stuns, iirc.
At least you could get rid of stuns. I'm really getting sick of knockups, I don't care if they feel powerful. 100-0'ing people makes me feel powerful, but that's at the expense of the people I'm playing against. You can't just keep shoving more and more uncounterable mechanics into champs or they get stupid strong. Riot has strongly hinted that suppression will soon be going out the window, or at least get changed, so why can't knockups get the same treatment? Oh, wait, Malz and WW's ults aren't flashy and "powerful"-looking.
Demonsolder219 votesWAIT WHAT MALZAHAR'S ULTIMATE IS GOING TO GET CHANGED?!?!?!?
Direwolfiez2 votesDoubt that they'd take away WW's ult and not touch Malz's; they'd look really stupid if they did that, and the WIP kit they showed of WW's lacked a suppression.
Leti the Yeti1 votesso suppressions are a problem and knock ups arent? I dont see how suppressions are better than stuns either
t3hcollective1 votesOh, wait, Malz and WW's ults aren't flashy and "powerful"-looking.
:( Urgot forgotten once again
Direwolfiez1 votesDude, I forget Urgot exists about 2/3 of the time xD
Seriously, though, the last time I saw one (not in ARAM) I wiped the floor with him. That was almost a year ago.
ArbiterOfTruth1 votes
doubleguac1 votesDon't be so melodramatic Stuns still have an obvious role in the game. Most "true" knock-ups (i.e., not abilities where the knock-up is largely a visual effect layered over what is actually a stun) have very short duration. Stuns are longer duration, but are effected by tenacity, and can be cleansed.
There are several relatively recent abilities that look like knock-ups, and that Yas can ult off of, but have their duration reduced by tenacity. Vi's ult, Yasuo's ult, and Nami's bubble are all effected by tenacity, and can all be cleared with cleanse/QSS/GP orange.
There are still plenty of stuns being released as well. See: Gnar, Lissandra, Braum.
Kuroi8611 votesSo?
Considering the restriction on his ult, why not give him means of actually using it.
Direwolfiez13 votesHis Q...it exists for a reason...
Kuroi8611 votesStill doesn't change the fact that he was the first champ with a restriction on his ult. Still doesn't give reason to nerf someone that's already seen numerous harsh nerfs.
Champs with knock ups give him more opportunity to use his ult. Most champs can just pop off their ult whenever they please, so long as they have a target. Some don't even need that much.
Direwolfiez4 votesMost champs have mana, or real CDs on most skills without bulding CDR. Imagine how BS his kit would be without having to knockup his targets before he could ult them.
The point is, Riot touted Yasuo's ult as needing strategy in team comp to really work well; when I heard that, I thought that would mean that he would actually have to rely on teammates to knockup people for him before he could ult...yet he's perfectly viable as the only member of his team with a knockup. Kinda eliminates any real strategy if he can use his ult by himself.
JustMyBassCannon9 votesSo, what, did you want him to be like Kalista, literally unable to use his ultimate without a teammate?
Direwolfiez1 votesWant ≠ expected. I'm saying that Riot talking about his ult was misleading.
JustMyBassCannon1 votesMaybe I missed the part when they were talking about his ultimate relying heavily on his team. I don't tend to watch a lot of red posts, and I don't think they tend to reveal much before a champion is reworked/released anymore (thanks to Twitch and Evelynn), so the only time I've heard Riot talking about Yasuo's ultimate was in the champion spotlight video, when he mentions that it can be activated on any knockup, which makes him synergize well with champions who have them.
They definitely should have made a more public announcement of what exactly Airborne status is, so that the community wouldn't have to look at the tooltips and explain to people that the champion spotlight didn't tell the whole story when they said knockups work with Yasuo's ultimate. That was misleading. But I never saw them say anything about it being team-reliant, just that it makes him synergize with specific composition.
Kuroi861 votesBecause if Yas had no knock up, it would be very much possible for him to have a game where he could never ult due to his team not taking any knock ups. While many people view new champs with knock ups as a buff to Yas, when you look at the number of knock ups in the game, it's staggering to realize that you actually HAVE to build part of a team comp around Yas to include a knock up to synergize with him. It's not difficult, but real synergy with Yasuo requires that aspect.
Remlap12235 votes^This. Seriously, Yasuo and Kalista were the first champions to have restrictions on their ults, and because people hate Yasuo, we have to unnecessarily punish him? I know his ult has a ridiculous armor ignore, but why the hell should we punish Yasuo for coordinating properly with his team?
Direwolfiez4 votesThe point is, his ult is too powerful, regardless of how "hard" it is to use. I'm okay with him being able to use it on actual knockups (Riot needs to be more consistent with this, since things not called knockups are coded as such), just as long as it's toned down. No assassin should double as a tank killer, that's what ADCs and APCs are supposed to do, and letting assassins/fighters or assassin-fighter combos, as Yasuo is, specialize in taking out multiple groups of champs is a horrible, horrible idea that never should have seen the light of day.
VentusDragoon2 votesI have to seriously agree with this. For one-- Riot said his ult can only work when an enemy is knocked up. HOWEVER-- it ACTUALLY can work off of ANY ABILITY THAT DISPLACES AN ENEMY. (With the exception of Thresh Q, Skarner Ult, and Urgot ult)
Aatrox: Q Alistar: Q, W Blitz: Q, E Braum: R Cho'gath: Q Darius: E Diana: E Draven: E Fizz: R Gnar: R Gragas: R Hecarim: E Janna: Q, R Jarvan: E+Q combo Jayce: E (hammer stance) Lee Sin: R Lulu: R Malphite: R Maokai: Q Nami: Q, R Nautilus: Q, R Orianna: R Poppy: E Quinn: E Rammus: Q Riven: 3rd Q Sejuani: Q Shyvana: R Singed: E Syndra: E Thresh: E Tristana: R Trundle: E Vayne: E Vi: Q, R Vel'Koz: E Volibear: Q Wukong: R Xin Zhao: Q, R Yasuo: 3rd Q Zac: E, R Ziggs: W Zyra: R
With him being able to ult off of ANY displacement (not to mention that he can just dash in and Q for a popup), it's honestly hard not to have someone on your team who synergizes with him.
In addition to this fact, his ult simply does too much. For a squishy melee carry, he straight up ignores armor (I had a game where I was playing Elise (TANK ELISE, randuins and everything) and he literally 1 shot me with his ult, as in I was dead as soon as I touched the ground, simply due to the fact that it ignores a TON of armor. In addition to that, it *entirely refreshes his shield, * AND, he can instantly start attacking before the enemy can actually do anything. A Yasuo can pull off an Auto or a Q (most of the time Q) before you're actually able to control your champion after the ult.
How is that right?
TL:DR I really think that they just need to remove the Armor Ignore from his ult, and make it so it only works on ACTUAL KNOCKUPS instead of even tiny things like Draven's Stand Aside or Poppy's FREAKING TACKLE AND TRUNDLE'S PILLAR.
Kuroi861 votesThat's one thing that I didn't quite understand when I realized it. Double crit chance Synergy with Bork Bonus armor pen on ult (Bonus armor pen being that it only ignores bonus armor from runes/masteries and items) ... Yasuo was built as a friggen tank buster!
doubleguac1 votesI believe Yasuo is in a fine spot now, balance wise, and doesn't deserve any nefs. But I do think that Riot overestimated how much the displacement requirement actually gates his ult.
The ability has an absurdly low CD at level 3, probably because Riot thought it was sufficiently gated by the displacement requirement. There are very few recent champions who don't have at least some way to proc the displacement requirement, though. And many champions have multiple ways.
-Reksai: 1 ability (unburrow) -Kalista: 1 ability (R) -Azir: 2 abilities (E and R) -Gnar: 1 ability (R) -Braum: 1 ability (R) -Velkoz: 1 ability (E) -Jinx: 0 abilities -Lucian: 0 abilities -Aatrox: 1 ability (E) -Lissandra: 0 abilities -Zac: 2 abilities (E and R) -Quinn: 1 ability (E) -Thresh: 2 abilities (Q and E) -Vi: 2 abilities (Q and R) -Nami: 2 abilities (Q and R)
Of the last 15 (non-Yasuo) champions, only 3 have nothing that can be yasuo ulted off of. In the last 15 champions released, there are 17 abilities that proc the displacement requirement.
Like I said, I don't think Yasuo needs a nerf right now. If he ends up needing a nerf in the future, I think increasing the CD on his ult would be a good place to start. It's very easy to pick a team with a lot of ways to proc his ultimate. The displacement requirement isn't really gating it's usage that effectively, and it has no cost and extremely low CD, so it's not being gated any other way.
Kuroi861 votesLike I said, I don't think Yasuo needs a nerf right now. If he ends up needing a nerf in the future, I think increasing the CD on his ult would be a good place to start. It's very easy to pick a team with a lot of ways to proc his ultimate. The displacement requirement isn't really gating it's usage that effectively, and it has no cost and extremely low CD, so it's not being gated any other way.
Probably one of the softest nerfs he'll ever see if they go that way lol. But yeah, if it's ever needed, I'd say that would be the way to go.
It Is I Emoto6 votesI'm still wondering why he can ult multiple people instead of just one.. I know he's a fighter, but he's also an assasin, so balance him also around single burst instead of multiple burst.
Junkο1 votesBecause then you ult somebody, and then you get killed by everybody else.
It already sometimes bugs out and doesn't ult everybody anyway (unless you manually put the mouse between everybody you want to ult, which is dumb)
It Is I Emoto1 votesThat would be pretty fair imo, if yasuo really wants to kill someone. if he ults like 4 at once, they're probably left with 50~60% health, and his armor pen will then burn the hp away. Don't forget his double crit passive, allowing him to do constantly tons of damage wich is extremly bother some. As well I'd like to remember you, that his Passive shield gets filled instantly if he ults someone.
Junkο2 votesIt wouldn't. Yasuo would CC himself and 1 person for an entire second, sure his shield refreshes. But a 400 health shield won't do shit against an ADC or APC potential of dealing 500 dmg with 1 AA(spell).
And no Yasuo ult DOES NOT deal that much dmg with ult, unless he is building full AD, which means you can easily blow him up and that also means he has no crit to benefit from his passive.
It Is I Emoto1 votesI mean, the most Yasuos that go mid, go full glass canon and build damage right after they've got their shiv. He feels like that he's now more of an Assasin than a fighter/bruiser and that's annoying.
Junkο1 votesMost Yasuos go Statik then IE then buy Randuins and go tanky. It's also better since your ult will most of the time place you into the enemy team, and you need to survive to get 3 Qs off in a non-knockup team to actually be able to use your ult.
Bears Dont Care1 votes[{quoted}](name=Rainbowe Dash,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=p50tMxEf,comment-id=0006000000000000,timestamp=2015-01-10T17:04:47.131+0000)
It wouldn't. Yasuo would CC himself and 1 person for an entire second, sure his shield refreshes. But a 400 health shield won't do shit against an ADC or APC potential of dealing 500 dmg with 1 AA(spell).
You survive 1 extra AA, thats actually quite good, Sion doesn't get such a large shield until he has enough health stacks. Do't underestimate shields.
Junkο1 votesMeanwhile pre rework Sion could get a more than 1k health shield that also dealt the same amount of damage if not destroyed, on a fairly low CD, and didn't CC himself during it
Bears Dont Care1 votes[{quoted}](name=Rainbowe Dash,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=p50tMxEf,comment-id=000600000000000000010000,timestamp=2015-01-10T19:46:30.696+0000)
Meanwhile pre rework Sion could get a more than 1k health shield that also dealt the same amount of damage if not destroyed, on a fairly low CD, and didn't CC himself during it
Yeah it is on a fairly low CD still actually, but I do not understand where you get the idea you self CC yourself
JustMyBassCannon5 votesYeah, all the new champions (and Sion's rework) came out with knockups. Three out of seven are attached on ultimates only. And before them, there were 38 champions, not including Yasuo, who also have some form of Airborne CC--knockback, knockup, or pull/fling--which allows him to use his ultimate.
Initial, 33.33% Today, 37.40%
pE4CbxDPQO3 votesRiot claims they have been going to knockups because they are easier to visually see. Not sure I buy it. They seem pretty proud of their most recent samurai.
Sammystorm3 voteseh at this point it doesn't much matter. It just lets yasuo getting picked more often if people wanted to but even that wasn't holding him back. He was a must pick even with the limited team synergy before. I mean it is like saying adding more champions with mobility pushes out non mobile champions (it doesn't). One team can already have 5 knock ups even after ban phase. So adding one more does not add to the ceiling at this point. It can however add a champion who is strong and see play most games (rek'sai) which does help yasuo. The other option is to have a new champion not be good and it not help yasuo (kalista, sion). However as soon as you make that argument you have to extend it to all champions who apply. For example adding rek'sai helps orianna for the same reasons it helps yasuo (chaining cc).
Junkο3 votesHe got nerfed like 5 patches in a row and has one of the lowest winrates in the game, give Yasuo a break.
Keevalroy4 votes[{quoted}](name=Rainbowe Dash,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=p50tMxEf,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2015-01-10T15:49:22.344+0000)
give Yasuo a break.
I won't now, nor will I ever give that cancerous monstrosity a break. So long as I'm the one in charge of bans, that thing will NEVER see a game.
Junkο1 votesI ban Yasuo too, but that's because i don't want my team to pick him and feed. If i'm against a Yasuo i just pick Malz problem solved
VentusDragoon1 votesWhat stats are you looking at? Yasuo still has one of the highest winrates if played well (Next to Rek'sai, who is currently in second position for most popular champion (Next to Thresh) and in top for the highest winrate) in the game. Not to mention that no nerf will solve the 30%+ armor ignoring and 100% crit passive.
Junkο1 voteshttp://www.lolking.net/champions/
Yep 45% winrate highest winrate in the game
Also nerfs would solve the problem with Yasuo armor pen and crit, it's just that the balance team is nerfing him in every other way because they are dumb.
asktiks3 voteseh ...idc I just bann yasuo much like zed when I can yes hes been nerfed his cancerous kit is whats the problem, I really wish riot wouldn't keep putting out this champs with this kits that they KNOW wil never be able to be balanced (read sion, elise, poppy, zed, khazix all kneecapped because their kits are impossible to balance , wich is why sion was redesigned)
tldr: the problem is not other champs with knockups , its yasuos impossible to balance kit
mi ramfan2 votesHonestly, Yasuo's ult should have a 3 second CD that applies whenever he misses the timing on ulting a Vi Q or similar mini-knockback moves. That way, he gets rewarded for ulting onto real knockups and can still ult a Vi Q so long as he's good, but can't just mash the button.
alagore2 votesWhile we are talking about stealth buffs, with the changes that make cannon minions spawning more later on, thresh will now get more guaranteed souls, and sion will get more health later on if he is farming. Also the removal of armor/mr from minions and increasing their life to compensate, also stealth buffed trundle.
Gunpoint2 votesIt'd be nice if they redefined Yasuo's understanding of "knockup" because Rammus running into someone shouldn't allow Yasuo to ult them...
DarthSpectrum2 votesYour point would be valid, if it were not that a team can only bring 5 champions.
Prior to Yasuo's release, there was already a champion with a knock up for every role. Furthermore, these champions (ie. Vayne, Lee Sin, Vi, J4, Orianna, Xin Zhao, Riven, Tresh, Janna etc.) are also top contenders for their respective lanes.
Any knock-up team composition that were possible now is pretty much also possible then. The only champion release that could fit your argument is Rek'sai, because she is currently a much more powerful choice compared to previous knock up junglers.
Byrnes1 votesNot that I disagree, but here are some numbers (and interpretive thoughts):
123 champions.
Say 124 has a knock up. That means there is a 0.8% increase in the number of champions that can knock-up for Yasuo to ulti with.
Now of course this isn't exact, and can't be, because there is a lot to consider here. First, there are already enough knock up champions that a whole team can give Yasuo a free ultimate. This means, technically, the addition of another knock up champion doesn't increase our ceiling. "But what if we just banned all of the knock up champions", well you could and that would make my argument worthless, but I don't think anyone would just up and do it...especially since there are so many. Like, it isn't just knock ups that activate his ulti, it is a lot of different CCs. So many champions have the ability to help him that it is almost hard to find a group of champions that can't.
Anyway if someone feels like doing the math, it can be calculated precisely what another knock up champion would do in terms of increase chance of getting a knock up for his ulti. It requires using C (not P).
Xx420n0sc0p3sxX1 votesAlso Irelia nerfs. Better nerf Irelia.
junglerboy161 votesThey are nerving IE's crit from 25% to 20%, stealth nerf to Yasuo counters his good team synergy.
Space Hitman1 voteso me gred der b laeik 0134984872398 champoos wit de kinackup for de yazhuoo ultermatum by de yeer 1886 B.C. der am b laeik at lest a LOUUWTT uf buffer on dem yazhuoo champoo... NORF!1!!!!11!1
